Isn't Free Will Arbitrary?

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And this is where the debate really rests. The bolded text is EXACTLY why I say it’s ultimately arbitrary if you take the position that you do. Because at the end of the day, if there’s no predetermined reason for why a person makes a choice and there’s nothing inherently designed into the person that compels them to make one choice or another, then it’s just an essentially random choice. It could have gone either way! As you said, “It’s simply the choice they made.” Well if that’s the case, then every person who has faith has faith because “it’s simply the choice they made,” and then it becomes virtually impossible to explain why the world that has been exposed to Christ isn’t split 50/50 between believers and non-believers. If it’s just a choice without any design to it, then why don’t the law of averages play out the way they would in any other arbitrary situation? Obviously there is something inside the people who choose faith that leads them to that choice that the people who do not choose faith don’t have!
There are a few Catholic dogmas of faith that pertain:


  1. *]There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.
    *]There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.
    *]For every salutary act, internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary.
    *]Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and salvation.
    *]Grace cannot be merited by natural works either de condigno or de congruo.
    *]God gives all the just sufficient grace for the observation of the divine commandments.

    The justified:

    1. *]Without the special help of God, the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification.
      *]The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid sins, even venial sins, without the special privilege of the grace of God.

      The fallen:

      1. *]Even in the fallen state, man can, by his natural intellectual power, know religious and moral truths.
        *]For the performance of a morally good action, sanctifying grace is not required.
        *]In the state of fallen nature, it is morally impossible for man without supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty, and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order.
 
You have touched on my point here so I’m thankful for your comments…You said that ultimately it can all be traced back to God…That’s right! It can! Well, if it can all be traced back to God, then really, what does it mean to say “we have a hand in it too”? How is that even possible.
You have misquoted me either intentionally or subliminally. You have inserted the word all.

One of the things we trace back to God is that he gave us, and to a lesser extent everything in the universe to various degrees, a hand in creation.That means that we can trace things back to God and our Free Will.

Let’s say a ship’s captain gives command to his first officer. The captain then goes about other duties, while the first officer makes some mistakes and runs the ship aground. The accident is traced back to both. But some things, like the failure to use the correct navigation data is traced back solely to the first officer.

Some of the decisions we make are independent of God. But we can do that only because he gave us that authority over his creation.
 
There are a few Catholic dogmas of faith that pertain:


  1. *]There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.
    *]There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.
    *]For every salutary act, internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary.
    *]Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and salvation.
    *]Grace cannot be merited by natural works either de condigno or de congruo.
    *]God gives all the just sufficient grace for the observation of the divine commandments.

    The justified:

    1. *]Without the special help of God, the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification.
      *]The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid sins, even venial sins, without the special privilege of the grace of God.

      The fallen:

      1. *]Even in the fallen state, man can, by his natural intellectual power, know religious and moral truths.
        *]For the performance of a morally good action, sanctifying grace is not required.
        *]In the state of fallen nature, it is morally impossible for man without supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty, and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order.

      1. Thanks for this. It’s a nice summary, but it doesn’t address why one person’s free will leads them to choose God while another person’s will leads them to reject God. That’s really what I’m getting at. Whether you’re a pelagian, a semi-pelagian, a Catholic, or an Arminian, the problem is the same. Why does one person’s free will lead to a choice for God while the opposite is true for others?
 
Thanks for this. It’s a nice summary, but it doesn’t address why one person’s free will leads them to choose God while another person’s will leads them to reject God. That’s really what I’m getting at. Whether you’re a pelagian, a semi-pelagian, a Catholic, or an Arminian, the problem is the same. Why does one person’s free will lead to a choice for God while the opposite is true for others?
From my post #15:There is no reason behind the failure to be saved. Catechism: “1872 Sin is an act contrary to reason. …” The sources of sin are ignorance, passion, and malice. You phrase it as “if both have the ability to have faith and one chooses faith and one does not”, but neither are born with faith. There must first be God’s gift of it. So you would have to phrase it as “if God has given faith to both and one has final penitence and the other does not”.
 
I believe great arguments can be made by both Augustinians and Arminians from the Bible, and having read the earliest church fathers, I agree with Arminians that the early church did tend to focus on free will (although I’m not sure they ever did address WHY a person ultimately makes the free will choice.)

One of the great flaws I see in free will, however, is that it ultimately boils down to an arbitrary choice. If all people can choose, by God’s grace, to reject or accept Him in faith, then why does one person have faith while the other does not? If it’s because of some positive quality in the one who chose faith, or some circumstance in life, or really anything at all, then couldn’t it easily be said that God is in fact ultimately behind the decision? In other words, if there is a reason one person chooses and another doesn’t, then isn’t that reason also ultimately foreseen and foreknown at the time of creation? If God knew this particular external force would keep people from faith, why did God create a universe with that external force within it?

I just don’t see how a person can honestly escape God’s sovereignty in all things at the end of the day.
Adam willed wrongly-and God didn’t force him to do otherwise. God’s purpose with man now is to draw us, to inform and refine our wills with the experience of good and evil that we have here in this life combined with revelation and grace, to make the right choice, but, still, without force.
 
Why does one person’s free will lead to a choice for God while the opposite is true for others?
Pride is the barrier that comes between human beings and God. Pharaoh eventually let the Israelites go after having been efficiently humbled. But he couldn’t bear the humility, and so he pursued God’s chosen people to destroy them soon after he had conceded and released them from slavery. God endures the obstinate soul only long enough to withhold His grace and abandon it in its sins. All our thoughts and actions in 3 dimensional real time are immediately present to God in eternity. God mercifully and patiently endures the impenitent soul even when knowing what the negative outcome shall be. He grants His graces to all souls even while knowing that He shall abandon many sinners, since God desires that everyone be saved. The reprobates themselves choose their eternal destiny because of their obstinate pride. God’s grace, however persuasive and influential, is not irresistible. Those who are saved, on the other hand, have chosen to draw themselves closer to God by cooperating with His grace in a spirit of humility. Unless we renounce our pride, we will draw ourselves away from God.
*
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. *
James 4, 9

PAX

:heaven:
 
You have misquoted me either intentionally or subliminally. You have inserted the word all.

One of the things we trace back to God is that he gave us, and to a lesser extent everything in the universe to various degrees, a hand in creation.That means that we can trace things back to God and our Free Will.

Let’s say a ship’s captain gives command to his first officer. The captain then goes about other duties, while the first officer makes some mistakes and runs the ship aground. The accident is traced back to both. But some things, like the failure to use the correct navigation data is traced back solely to the first officer.

Some of the decisions we make are independent of God. But we can do that only because he gave us that authority over his creation.
Ok great. Why do some people when given that freedom make Godly choices and others do not? There seems to be a lot of time here spent on the idea that God gives people freedom, but the question has nothing to do with that. It addresses why people make the choices they do. Even if I assume you’re 100 percent right, you haven’t explained why people choose God while others don’t.
 
By the way …

Just so you all don’t think I’m biased. I’ve been reading the church fathers a lot on this issue, and prior to Augustine, it does seem the universal belief was that man somehow paradoxically has freedom and that predestination is based on foreseen faith. It doesn’t make any sense to me, but it’s definitely the clearly held view.
 
By the way …

Just so you all don’t think I’m biased. I’ve been reading the church fathers a lot on this issue, and prior to Augustine, it does seem the universal belief was that man somehow paradoxically has freedom and that predestination is based on foreseen faith. It doesn’t make any sense to me, but it’s definitely the clearly held view.
So if God exists, outside of time so that His foreknowledge is inevitable, that fact somehow affects and alters the moral responsibility of man, who does live in time-whereas if no such God happens to exist then man suddenly becomes responsible for his actions?
 
. . . There seems to be a lot of time here spent on the idea that God gives people freedom, but the question has nothing to do with that. It addresses why people make the choices they do. Even if I assume you’re 100 percent right, you haven’t explained why people choose God while others don’t.
The young ruler chose not to follow Jesus although he had been true to all God’s commandments, because to do so would have meant giving God, by donating his wealth to the poor, everything he had and was. We all identify with his reasons for doing that. Beyond that is our free will to choose.
 
So if God exists, outside of time so that His foreknowledge is inevitable, that fact somehow affects and alters the moral responsibility of man, who does live in time-whereas if no such God happens to exist then man suddenly becomes responsible for his actions?
Who said anything about altering man’s moral responsibility? No one said that. Not even John Calvin would say that.
 
The young ruler chose not to follow Jesus although he had been true to all God’s commandments, because to do so would have meant giving God, by donating his wealth to the poor, everything he had and was. We all identify with his reasons for doing that. Beyond that is our free will to choose.
This also really doesn’t address the issue at all.
 
Adam willed wrongly-and God didn’t force him to do otherwise. God’s purpose with man now is to draw us, to inform and refine our wills with the experience of good and evil that we have here in this life combined with revelation and grace, to make the right choice, but, still, without force.
Ok, but why do some people choose God after they have been drawn while others have not? If God is drawing all people to him, then there must be something in some people that inclines them to choose God that doesn’t exist in others, right?
 
Ok, but why do some people choose God after they have been drawn while others have not? If God is drawing all people to him, then there must be something in some people that inclines them to choose God that doesn’t exist in others, right?
Whatever people choose to do or accept is a matter of preference. Esau lost his rightful inheritance because he chose a morsel of food rather than God. ‘The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.’ The truth is we cannot serve two masters. A Freudian might say that Esau let the pleasure principle dominate him in opposition to the reality principle. The thought of immediate gratification got the better of him. It is divine grace that influences us to choose God and a selfish nature that inclines us to draw away from Him. It’s all about personal resistance either against Divine persuasion or against our selfish second nature.

PAX
:heaven:
 
Even if I assume you’re 100 percent right, you haven’t explained why people choose God while others don’t.
If we could give you an a priori reason, then there would be no free will.

Since there is no answer, apparently free will exists.And, it is not arbitrary.

The reason why some folks chose one thing over another is because they have the free will to do so.
 
If we could give you an a priori reason, then there would be no free will.

Since there is no answer, apparently free will exists.And, it is not arbitrary.

The reason why some folks chose one thing over another is because they have the free will to do so.
That’s right, and this reminds of the reason Anselm came up with for Adam’s sin. Adam sinned because he willed to sin. Not much more to say about it than that.
 
And this is where the debate really rests. The bolded text is EXACTLY why I say it’s ultimately arbitrary if you take the position that you do. Because at the end of the day, if there’s no predetermined reason for why a person makes a choice and there’s nothing inherently designed into the person that compels them to make one choice or another, then it’s just an essentially random choice. It could have gone either way! As you said, “It’s simply the choice they made.” Well if that’s the case, then every person who has faith has faith because “it’s simply the choice they made,” and then it becomes virtually impossible to explain why the world that has been exposed to Christ isn’t split 50/50 between believers and non-believers. If it’s just a choice without any design to it, then why don’t the law of averages play out the way they would in any other arbitrary situation? Obviously there is something inside the people who choose faith that leads them to that choice that the people who do not choose faith don’t have!
Thank you for this challenging discussion.

First, it might be helpful if you make the distinction that what you mean by the OP question is not really “isn’t free will arbitrary?” but rather “isn’t the exercise of free will arbitrary?” I point this out because of what you say above. Read the way the OP is stated, it gives the impression that you’re questioning the reality of free will itself, which is why this thread is full of arguments defending just that, rather than addressing your real concern.

As to your real concern, as elucidated above, I respond that we do not have a perfectly free will. To understand this, we have to delve a little bit into metaphysics. What you’re asking is a very complex question, and I feel like you’re not treating it with the depth that it deserves. I don’t think that’s intentional on your part though.

To begin, the Church teaches that humans are a body/spirit unity. Though we are not a duality, as though I had a spirit attached to a body, but rather a perfect blending of the two such that we do everything bodily and spiritually at the same time. Our thoughts are spiritual (intellectual), and occur in the body (electrical impulses), for example. Our wills move in a certain direction, and our bodies move in accordance to that will. You cannot do anything purely spiritually, and you cannot do anything purely bodily.

That said, the fact that we are a blend of two opposing natures nevertheless produces within us an effect of mental and wilful duality. Not a true duality, but an apparent one.

All bodies move. All movement is directed toward the good, in accordance with the nature of the moving body. More complex bodies (like animals, for example) perform more complex movements, but they are always directed toward the good in accordance with their nature. This is non-free will in action. They move because they have been acted upon (such as a rock rolling downhill after it has been pushed), or their natures impulse them toward particular movements (or actions, as in an animal consuming food to satisfy its need for sustenance).

Non-free will, as described above is irrational. Not that it is illogical or doesn’t make sense. It is irrational in that the will is not directed by reason, but by impulse. The animal didn’t sit down and think, “my stomach is producing within me an unpleasant feeling, and I recognize this to mean that my body is in need to food to sustain it in good health. I wish to continue living, and to avoid this suffering, besides the fact that eating food for this reason is good for me anyway, so I’m going to go find something to eat.” No, it just feels hungry so it eats.

Spirits are everything that bodies are not. They are intelligent (rational), unextended (non-spacial), freely willing, immutable beings. Bodies are irrational, spirits are rational. Bodies are extended, spirits are unextended. Bodies are in a constant state of change, spirits are not in a state of change. Bodies are not free of will, spirits are free of will.

But humans are a unique unity of the two. Humans are both rational and irrational. Humans are both extended and unextended. We are both changing, and unchanging. We are both free of will, and unfree of will. In us, these things (rationality, extension, change, free will) are scales, rather than absolute bookends. The degree to which we are at one end of the scale or the other is the degree to which our bodily faculties dominate our being, or our spiritual faculties dominate our being. The more animalistic we are, the less rational, the more erratic, the less free we become, and the material world, more and more, is all that really makes sense to us. The more angelic we are, the more rational, stable, and free we become, and the spiritual world, more and more, is what really makes sense to us (we begin to have mystical experience, etc.).

Our starting point, as a species, was that of more freedom in will than we’ve had since. No one, save Mary and Jesus, were more free than Adam and Eve were. This is because the proper order of our nature is the dominance of our spiritual faculties over our bodily faculties, and this is how they were created. This makes sense because the spirit is a higher order of being (i.e., more like God) than the body. And what is higher has greater authority, as well as greater duty.

Our starting point, however, is different than theirs. We begin in concupiscence and original sin. Our natures have been disordered such that our bodily faculties now dominate our spiritual faculties, and we struggle to overcome our bodily urges in light of greater goods.

To continue…
 
Continued…

The great disciplines of humanity throughout the ages have all been directed in one way or another (even though they have not necessarily been understood in this manner) toward reordering ourselves toward what we once were. Discipline, the exercise of the intellect and free will over the promptings of bodily desires, is found in all the great religions. Asceticism, ritual observance, self-denial, delayed gratification, all work toward this end.

Moreover, a principle of metaphysics is that the will, whether it is free or not, always moves toward the good (or at least the perceived good). The great good that resides in the hearts of all people, the one that drives everyone to do what they do, is the good of happiness.

As noted above by another poster, quoting from the Catechism, “The sources of sin are ignorance, passion, and malice.” Ignorance of the true good. Passions for the lower goods. Malice against the higher goods. In the order of guilt, ignorance is least, passions are next, and malice is greatest. In ignorance, the will moves toward a lesser good because it is unaware of the greater good. In passion, the will knowingly moves toward the lower good because it perceives it to be greater than the greater good. In malice, the will knowingly moves toward the lower good despite knowing that it is lesser than the greater good.

This is what makes sin irrational, that it loves that lesser good more than the greater good. The irrationality of it is that the will is designed to move toward the greater good, yet in sin it does not.

Jesus tells the parable of the sower, in explanation for why people who hear the Gospel fall away. Some fall by the wayside, some on stony ground, some among thorns. Those who are among thorns fall away due to their passions. Those who fall by the wayside are immediately snatched up by Satan, the deceiver and accuser, these fall into ignorance, or perhaps didn’t really understand what they were hearing in the first place. Those who fall on stony ground receive the Gospel gladly, and endure in it for a time, but then fall away because they come to endure hardship, and by this they become offended (thinking, perhaps, that they should have been rewarded for their Faith, not punished). They turn away in malice, knowing the truth, yet abandoning it out of offense.

Those who fall on good ground, the ones who remain in Faith, they heard the Gospel (meaning they are no longer in ignorance), they received the Gospel (meaning they accepted it in truth, opposed to malice), and brought forth fruit (have mastery over their passions, and move always toward the greater good).

This is the mystery of sin and righteousness. Sin always leads to less freedom, to slavery. This is because it disorders our nature, steeps us in the unfree material world. Righteousness always leads to greater freedom, because it rightly orders our nature of spirituality (reason and love) having dominion over the body. Thus, true freedom is found in obedience to the Lord, and His Law, while unfreedom is found in disobedience to Him and His Law.

It seems a paradox, but it’s true. We are free when we obey Him. These are our freest choices, when we choose the highest good. Moreover, our choices are also freest when they are rationally made, when they are reasoned, when they come from a place of knowledge, and are not constricted by our bodily passions.

TL;DR

You won’t see a 50/50 split because:
  1. Uncaused choices don’t have to be random. More properly speaking, they are reasoned.
  2. The human will isn’t perfectly free, it exists on a spectrum between free and not free, falling somewhere in the middle. Most choices can be traced to a cause, and those that can’t can still be explained as either being irrational (subject to a disorder in our nature), or rational, deriving from a correct judgement about what is right and good and a desire to pursue it.
  3. Beyond even this complexity, there are other complexities that have a bearing on this question. For example, God dispenses His grace for our good, but He does it through mediums who may pass it on well, pass it on poorly, or pass it on not at all, which of course affects how it is received, if at all.
Finally, while you can find reason for those good choices in Faith (i.e., they are reasonable choices), and while you may be able to explain those bad choices in Faith (up to and including total apostasy) that derive from ignorance or animalistic desires, you cannot find reason, ultimately, in those that derive from malice, as such are purely irrational choices.
 
The unanimous consent of the Fathers of both the East and West prior to St. Augustine, as well as the Greek Fathers post-Augustine and Latin theologians such as St. Albertus Magnus post-Augustine, amounts to a clear espousal of a belief in Predestination post praevisa merita (after prevision of merits) and by that I mean logically rather than chronologically (since there is no time in God, He being Eternity Itself)… St. Thomas Aquinas is completely ambiguous on the issue, at times sounding like Augustine and teaching unconditional election whereas in other places he seems insistent that God does not predestine before prevision of merits. It is obvious that even he is out of his depth on this issue and was unable to reconcile Augustinianism with the teaching of the Church for the first four centuries along with the Greek Fathers.

Between St. Augustine and the Reformation, other than among the Scholastics, ‘predestination’ was not a topic that was given any great attention by theologians.

Only following the Reformation and with the spread of Calvinism, did the Banezian and Molinist theories explicitly dealing with this emerge in Catholic thought.

Other than condemning Pelagianism (salvation through works) on the one hand and Jansenism (along with Calvinist double predestination) on the other as heresies, the Church has never delineated an official teaching on how predestination actually works. It has never had any practical impact on the lives of Catholic laity, hence why it is rarely catechized on other than being held up as a divine mystery.

St. Frances de Sales, the Jesuit Lessius and St. Alphonsus de Ligouri endorsed the pre-Augustinian belief in conditional predestination and following the displacement of Thomism by the ‘New Theology’ of resourcemment (return to the patristics) and aggiornamento (updating) at Vatican II, the conciliar documents such as Lumen Gentium and the Catechism appear to very clearly endorse the pre-Augustinian conception of predestination posterior to foreseen merits, albeit recognizing that all meritorious acts have their origin from the grace of God as opposed to the efforts of man.

When theologians returned to the sources at Vatican II, they realized that unconditional predestination before prevision of merits had absolutely no basis or foundation in any Patristic source prior to the advent of St. Augustine. The Orthodox, consequently, have never believed in unconditional election.
 
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