Isn't it all a great circle? Can anyone break it?

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CutlerB

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I’m back into this thing of circular reasoning I came across once. (Showers get you to think! 😉 )

Here’s the question I started out with and afterwards I list my line of thought: How do I know it’s true?
  1. The Bible is accurate and gives us information on Jesus Christ.
    → How do I know it contains the truth and nothing but truth?
  2. Because the Church has infallibly declared the Bible’s contents inspired and inerrant.
    → How can the Church make an infallible statement?
  3. The Bible provides evidence for such a capability.
Now here is where my problem started: You cannot get a foundation for a belief from a connected belief that bases itself on the matter in question. Either I grant that there might be no error in such a passage of Scripture, or there is. (If there is, that ends the question, if not, I continue my thought)
  1. Granted that such passages do not contain false information and Jesus Christ said this, isn’t interpretation involved? How do I know this interpretation is correct?
    → The answer couldn’t be “The Church interprets”, because that would form a circle, could it?
  2. After all, without the dogmatic definition of inerrancy and simply treating the Bible as a human historic document, Jesus becomes only a man. Why take anything seriously he claimed about the supernatural?
I am in no way criticising the Church or Christian beliefs, after all I am one myself, but I have the feeling there’s something badly wrong with my thinking on the matter. Actually, I am very confused! 😉

Can anyone point out where the mistakes are?

Thank you.
 
I am no expert, but let me take a stab at this according to my own admittedly limited knowledge and understanding. :o

I think that the key is that the Bible is looked at in two different ways: In one sense, as a collection of historical writings and letters, and in the other as Divinely Inspired Scripture. For reasons below, it is legitimate to use these two different understandings almost as if they were in fact two different sources rather than one circular source. At this point that sounds weird, so read on to understand why it works…

We do not first start with the Bible as inerrant. We start with the Bible as one piece of historical evidence among multiple indicators that Jesus Christ was a real human being, Who really claimed the things we believe He claimed, and Whose disciples and followers claimed that He rose from the dead under highly unique circumstances in which their lying or being deceived was highly unlikely. And indeed, one need not even look into the Bible to find that there were people who claimed that Jesus had risen from the dead. Once we realize that Christians really did exist at the time of Jesus’ death, we can turn to the Biblical epistles, not as scripture but as mere letters, to confirm what the early Christians were saying about Jesus: That there were eyewitnesses to his death, and that these eyewitnesses themselves were willing to die for those claims. We can believe these epistles’ claims about this not because “The Church says so” but because if these claims had been pulled out of thin air, the fact that these letters were written during the lifespan of Jesus’ contemporaries would mean that they would have been easily shot down and the Christian movement would have been over before it began: After all, Jesus’ life was highly public and debunking obvious myths about Him would have been simple. So we know, from using the Bible in strictly historical means, that the earliest Christians believed that Jesus died, rose from the dead, and that the Church was the “pillar and bulwark of truth” because these are all contained in those portion of scriptures that were letters, and no substantial number among the early Christians seems to have disputed this.

As for why we can conclude that the earliest Christians were right about Jesus’ resurrection, that is a different discussion altogether, but to touch on it lightly here it’s because of the unique circumstances surrounding the claims. If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead and ascend to Heaven, then either Jesus managed to pull off a hoax that no one since then has ever been able to pull off with similarly limited technology (not only a resurrection, but being taken up into Heaven before the eyes of witnesses), or all the eyewitnesses were crazy in the exact same way (they were willing to die for what they claimed to see with their own eyes), or they were all crazy enough to die for what they absolutely knew to be a lie. To me personally, the Christian claim seems the most reasonable (yes, atheists and other unbelievers will balk at that, but I’m just being honest 🤷 ). And if Jesus did rise from the dead, then the early Christians’ beliefs, including that about the Church (which they said was “the pillar and bulwark of truth”), is something to be taken more seriously. Even aside from that, we know simply from quotes from the early Church Fathers that the Church was considered to have authority and, as an entity, to be incapable of erring from Truth.

And once we have concluded that the Church has Divine teaching authority–that is to say that the Church is the “pillar and bulwark of truth”–we can from there confirm that the rest of the Bible is accurate (in the sense of “inspired”, not always in the sense of being taken literally), even those parts which are very difficult to verify from history (such as parts of the Old Testament, such as the book of Revelation, etc.) are accurate, because this is what the Church teaches.

So rather than saying “The Bible is accurate because the Church says so, and the Church is right because the Bible says so,” there is a subtle difference. We are actually saying “Certain parts of the Bible are most likely accurate because their being accurate makes the most sense in terms of the other evidence from history and in terms of logic surrounding the historical context; those parts of the Bible coupled with quotes from relatively early Christian leaders lend credence to belief that the Church is the source of truth; and the Church teaches that the entire Bible is inspired, by having canonized it, rather than merely happening to be accurate.”

The distinction may seem subtle, but it’s there, and it makes all the difference in the world.

As an aside, when you think about that last part, it is only if there is an authoritative and infallible Church that we can conclude that the Bible (at least the New Testament) is anything more than a collection of writings that “happen” to be accurate, because the New Testament, at least, was never claimed within its own writings to be written as Divinely Inspired Holy Scripture with the possible exception of the book of Revelation.

I hope this helps! 🙂

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
Perhaps part of the problem comes from how you are looking at the bible.
The bible should not be looked at a “single work” for indeed it is not. It is a compilation of many works, by many authors. So - for instance in the matter of the life of Jesus…you don’t have one source but four, Matthew Mark Luke and John - and this doesn’t get into the additional sources of Paul, James, Peter etc in the Epistles…Each an “independent work” - an independent source…

Then - All of these various independent sources…books…were gathered together in a single collection/biblia - bible by an organization that predated the (NT) works themselves…

How does this view effect the circularity of your reasoning?

Ultimately though the only way to break the “circular reasoning” is to recognize that it is the Holy Spirit who convicts us - each in our own heart - of the truth of Christ and His Gospel and His Church.

Peace
James
 
I’m back into this thing of circular reasoning I came across once. (Showers get you to think! 😉 )

Here’s the question I started out with and afterwards I list my line of thought: How do I know it’s true?
  1. The Bible is accurate and gives us information on Jesus Christ.
    → How do I know it contains the truth and nothing but truth?
  2. Because the Church has infallibly declared the Bible’s contents inspired and inerrant.
    → How can the Church make an infallible statement?
  3. The Bible provides evidence for such a capability.
Now here is where my problem started: You cannot get a foundation for a belief from a connected belief that bases itself on the matter in question. Either I grant that there might be no error in such a passage of Scripture, or there is. (If there is, that ends the question, if not, I continue my thought)
  1. Granted that such passages do not contain false information and Jesus Christ said this, isn’t interpretation involved? How do I know this interpretation is correct?
    → The answer couldn’t be “The Church interprets”, because that would form a circle, could it?
  2. After all, without the dogmatic definition of inerrancy and simply treating the Bible as a human historic document, Jesus becomes only a man. Why take anything seriously he claimed about the supernatural?
I am in no way criticising the Church or Christian beliefs, after all I am one myself, but I have the feeling there’s something badly wrong with my thinking on the matter. Actually, I am very confused! 😉

Can anyone point out where the mistakes are?

Thank you.
Your mistake is that the above is not CIRCULAR, but rather SPIRAL. And, as such, a spiral argument is absolutely logical.

For the argument above to be circular, you would have to start with a premise, and end with the same premise.

It would look something like this: The Bible is inspired. The Bible says that the Church is infallible. The Church says the Bible is inspired.

OR: The Church is infallible. The Church discerned the canon of Scripture. The Scriptures say that the Church is infallible.

That’s circular.

The spiral argument is this:
Code:
 On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history.

From that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded.

And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired.
This is not a circular argument because the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired) is not simply a restatement of its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable), and its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable) is in no way based on the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired). What we have demonstrated is that without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired." source
 
The spiral argument is this:
Code:
 On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history.

From that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded.

And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired.
Yes, but the problem I see is this: How can a simple historical document male the true claim of the founding of an infallible Church? Anybody can write that, but that doesn’t make it true. As long as you don’t know that the Bible is inspired, you don’t have a guaranteed truth in the document.
 
Yes, but the problem I see is this: How can a simple historical document male the true claim of the founding of an infallible Church? Anybody can write that, but that doesn’t make it true. As long as you don’t know that the Bible is inspired, you don’t have a guaranteed truth in the document.
What you do, Cutler, is study the Bible from a historical context only.

From that, you will conclude that it is historically reliable. Jesus really did exist. Jesus really did preach. Jesus really did have disciples. Jesus really was crucified.

And from there you conclude that Jesus really did establish a Church.

(You ought to note that of all the ancient texts, there is NONE that has been verified and scrutinized in minute detail, as the Bible. All extant manuscripts match one another remarkably, like no other ancient text manuscripts do.)
 
What you do, Cutler, is study the Bible from a historical context only.

From that, you will conclude that it is historically reliable. Jesus really did exist. Jesus really did preach. Jesus really did have disciples. Jesus really was crucified.

And from there you conclude that Jesus really did establish a Church.

(You ought to note that of all the ancient texts, there is NONE that has been verified and scrutinized in minute detail, as the Bible. All extant manuscripts match one another remarkably, like no other ancient text manuscripts do.)
OK, so far you’ve got Jesus more or less on a par with Joseph Smith.
 
OK, so far you’ve got Jesus more or less on a par with Joseph Smith.
Ok.🤷

But just don’t stop there with considering what Jesus said about himself and how we know it.

Is there a particular objection you have that we can discuss?
 
I’m back into this thing of circular reasoning I came across once. (Showers get you to think! 😉 )

Here’s the question I started out with and afterwards I list my line of thought: How do I know it’s true?
  1. The Bible is accurate and gives us information on Jesus Christ.
    → How do I know it contains the truth and nothing but truth?
  2. Because the Church has infallibly declared the Bible’s contents inspired and inerrant.
    → How can the Church make an infallible statement?
  3. The Bible provides evidence for such a capability.
…

after all, without the dogmatic definition of inerrancy and simply treating the Bible as a human historic document, Jesus becomes only a man. Why take anything seriously he claimed about the supernatural?
I’m going to blow up your circle, and make it real simple.

Pretend every Bible in existence has been burned. It no longer exists.

Does the Catholic Church’s teachings still hold value? What of the Protestants?
 
Can anyone point out where the mistakes are?
I think I follow what you are saying. Please consider the following concepts regarding how to get outside of the “circular reasoning”:

Find the solution to the following question:
How would a Creator create an ever-lasting society of a limitless number of true friends, given the Creator gets to participate as a friend, and the Creator initially exists in absolute solitude?

When you find the solution, see which religious texts are in-alignment with the solution.

In my analysis, I have found the following alignments:
The story of events which are to take place from the beginning of creation to the fulfillment of the means to maintain the creation are in alignment with the Holy Bible.
The things the Creator must do are in-alignment with the Nicene Creed.
The rules of the heavenly society are in-alignment with the Greatest Commandments.
The rules of the pinnacle of living in the earthly society are in-alignment with the Sacraments of the Catholic Church.
The details regarding living in the earthly society are detailed in the Catechisms of the Catholic Church.

If this tasks makes sense, and you find a solution, please share it with me, so I may determine where my analysis has faulted.

Thank you very much for your consideration and excellent food for thought! I look forward to further discussion!
 
  1. The Bible is accurate and gives us information on Jesus Christ.
    → How do I know it contains the truth and nothing but truth?
  2. Because the Church has infallibly declared the Bible’s contents inspired and inerrant.
    → How can the Church make an infallible statement?
  3. The Bible provides evidence for such a capability.
Can anyone point out where the mistakes are?

Thank you.
The mistake is that all revelation comes from God.

Scripture is divine revelation. Tradtion is divine revelation. The ability of the Magisterium to interpet scripture and safeguard the deposit of faith is divine, it comes from God.

It all comes from God.

-Tim-
 
I would merely let St. Irenaeus of Lyon explain how we can know the Truth by pointing you to how he responded to the Gnostic’s who were perverting scripture to fit their own ends.

newadvent.org/fathers/0103301.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/0103302.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/0103304.htm

Basically Irenaeus’ argument is that the Truth does not change and has been passed down by apostolic succession. His point at that time was that everyone knew what the apostles had taught, and all the apostolic Churches were teaching the same things as one another and same things as the generation before them taught. In other words its not really the Bible that provides the proof that the Church has the authority to teach infallibly, rather history does. The Church today teaches the same Truth that was taught yesterday and the same Truth that was taught in the 1st century. Every moral truth that was taught to be intrinsically evil then is still intrinsically evil today.

Its incredibly absurd when people use the Bible to try and prove why Church teaching is wrong. The Church created the Bible. How do you know which is the True Church? Follow the line of succession back to the original apostles and compare the Truths that were taught by the first century apostolic Church to today’s Church.
 
→ How can the Church make an infallible statement?
3. The Bible provides evidence for such a capability.
No, it doesn’t, and the problem here is anachronism. The Bible shows us at most a proto-Church in the Acts and the Epistles, and it does not show that Church’s process of defining dogma. This is mostly because the necessity for doing so occurred later, when heretics were not only doing their thing but teaching their thing, and the Church had to refute them. Through this process, the Latin Church developed a belief in its ability and authority to make such a statement, based largely upon its track record of getting things right since the New Testament days.

So, your system should run
  1. The Bible is accurate and gives us information on Jesus Christ.
    → How do I know it contains the truth and nothing but truth?
  2. Because the Church has infallibly declared the Bible’s contents inspired and inerrant.
    → How can the Church make an infallible statement?
  3. Tradition provides evidence for such a capability.
 
The mistake is that all revelation comes from God.

Scripture is divine revelation. Tradtion is divine revelation. The ability of the Magisterium to interpet scripture and safeguard the deposit of faith is divine, it comes from God.

It all comes from God.

-Tim-
Yes, but then again: How do we know Scripture is Divine Revelation? I’d say we know only definitely by the judgement of the Church through the Magisterium. However, I actually forgot about Tradition… that just slipped from view. 😉
 
Yes, but then again: How do we know Scripture is Divine Revelation? I’d say we know only definitely by the judgement of the Church through the Magisterium. However, I actually forgot about Tradition… that just slipped from view. 😉
So now the circular problem becomes:
  1. The Magisterium is accurate and gives us information on Jesus Christ.
    → How do I know the Magisterium teaches the truth and nothing but truth?
  2. Because Tradition affirms the Magisterium is inspired and inerrant.
    → How do we know Tradition is correct?
  3. Because the Magisterium infallibly says so…
Hmmmmn.
 
I’m back into this thing of circular reasoning I came across once. (Showers get you to think! 😉 )

Here’s the question I started out with and afterwards I list my line of thought: How do I know it’s true?
  1. The Bible is accurate and gives us information on Jesus Christ.
    1.A. The Bible contains Divine Revelation.
→ How do I know it contains the truth and nothing but truth?
Answer. Divine Revelation becomes a given or presupposition when one believes in God and the Divinity of Jesus Christ.
  1. Because the Church has infallibly declared the Bible’s contents inspired and inerrant.
    2.A. The Church declares specific doctrines as infallible meaning that they flow from the Divine Revelation which is found in the Bible.
→ How can the Church make an infallible statement?
Answer. By following the protocol for declaring Divine Revelation.
  1. The Bible provides evidence for such a capability.
    3.A. The Bible contains Divine Revelation from which infallible doctrines flow.
One breaks the circle by sticking to the point of Divine Revelation. In other words, one presents the presupposition that God and Jesus Christ exist and along with the Holy Spirit (Please refer to Chapter 14, Gospel of John) are the divine triune God. With the acceptance of this as point one, then acceptance of Divine Revelation follows.

Next one presents the human source [Bible] for Divine Revelation. Determining who can interpret Divine Revelation becomes a separate issue.
 
How about this sequence (leaving out proofs for simplicity)


  1. *] God is real
    *] God is loving
    *] If God is really loving He would reveal himself and tell humans how to live.
    *] Any evidence that He has done so? Hmmm, OT – Jews as people of God, NT – Church as people of God.
    *] How do they tell us about God? They write it down or pass it along orally.
    *] How do we know they aren’t lying?
    *] Loving God would take steps to make sure His “Word” is not corrupted.
    *] Any evidence of this? Both written and oral teachings say God will use His Spirit of truth to ensure the teachings are preserved.

    It is logical that a just and loving God would take some sort of steps to ensure his teachings were preserved unaltered throughout history. Why? Because how else could he justly judge us at our death? He could not hold us accountable for following teachings that had been lost or become corrupted. But all indications are that he WILL judge us at our death. Therefore His teachings must be preserved in some way.

    As a previous post noted - it all starts and ends with God.
 
How about this sequence (leaving out proofs for simplicity)


  1. *] God is real
    *] God is loving
    *] If God is really loving He would reveal himself and tell humans how to live.
    *] Any evidence that He has done so? Hmmm, OT – Jews as people of God, NT – Church as people of God.
    *] How do they tell us about God? They write it down or pass it along orally.
    *] How do we know they aren’t lying?
    *] Loving God would take steps to make sure His “Word” is not corrupted.
    *] Any evidence of this? Both written and oral teachings say God will use His Spirit of truth to ensure the teachings are preserved.

    It is logical that a just and loving God would take some sort of steps to ensure his teachings were preserved unaltered throughout history. Why? Because how else could he justly judge us at our death? He could not hold us accountable for following teachings that had been lost or become corrupted. But all indications are that he WILL judge us at our death. Therefore His teachings must be preserved in some way.

    As a previous post noted - it all starts and ends with God.

  1. And God is (easily?) known to be real because…
 
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