Isn't it immoral to worship god?

[mgreen77]

Here’s where I get stuck in coming back to God. It’s a little like the catch-22 moral dilemna that made HAL nuts in the 2001 Space Odessey movie…

God wants us to live moral lives at all times, yes? Even when it’s not easy or convenient. We look back and admire the old martyrs who wouldn’t compromise on their beliefs and convictions, not even when threatened torture or promised rewards. They knew what was right, and no threat or temptation could sway them.

But then here’s this God who’s threatened to kill and torture me, just as the Romans threatened the early Christians, unless I swear my allegiance to Him. And to me, any Being who demands absolute obediance under threat of torture is ALWAYS wrong, God or not. He makes an immoral demand of me.

It seems a no-win. I stay true to Goodness, and he slays and punishes me. Or I give in to the fear of torture (or temptation of reward) and can never forgive myself for selling out my integrity and Goodness. It seems He gives a contradictory command… to be and do Good, and yet demands that I praise a Being who threatens to kill and torture anyone who doesn’t forsake that sense of Good to swear their allegiance to Him.

How do you reconcile that?

 

[bmullins]

Your understanding is that God threatens to kill you and hurt you for not worshiping him… when it’s actually God who offers to give you life forever if you DO worship him. It’s an offer of Heaven, not a threat of Hell.

If you are about to fall into a pit full of knives and I say if you turn to me, I’ll keep you from falling… and you say No way… and fall in… Did I threaten you with a pit of knives? No, I offered you salvation. The pit of knives is already in your path… God is just trying to keep you from falling into it.

 

[meltzerboy]

Here’s where I get stuck in coming back to God. It’s a little like the catch-22 moral dilemna that made HAL nuts in the 2001 Space Odessey movie…

God wants us to live moral lives at all times, yes? Even when it’s not easy or convenient. We look back and admire the old martyrs who wouldn’t compromise on their beliefs and convictions, not even when threatened torture or promised rewards. They knew what was right, and no threat or temptation could sway them.

But then here’s this God who’s threatened to kill and torture me, just as the Romans threatened the early Christians, unless I swear my allegiance to Him. And to me, any Being who demands absolute obediance under threat of torture is ALWAYS wrong, God or not. He makes an immoral demand of me.

It seems a no-win. I stay true to Goodness, and he slays and punishes me. Or I give in to the fear of torture (or temptation of reward) and can never forgive myself for selling out my integrity and Goodness. It seems He gives a contradictory command… to be and do Good, and yet demands that I praise a Being who threatens to kill and torture anyone who doesn’t forsake that sense of Good to swear their allegiance to Him.

How do you reconcile that?

I think your premise that G-d has threatened to kill and torture you for not worshiping Him is incorrect. G-d gives you free will and what happens to someone after death who did not worship G-d, yet has behaved in a moral manner toward others during their lifetime, is, according to Jewish teaching, unknown. G-d is always merciful, however, and there is no doctrine involving physical killing or torture for non-believers in this life or the afterlife. So worshiping G-d is indeed following what you call morality and goodness.

 

[Newbie2]

Your understanding is that God threatens to kill you and hurt you for not worshiping him… when it’s actually God who offers to give you life forever if you DO worship him. It’s an offer of Heaven, not a threat of Hell.

If you are about to fall into a pit full of knives and I say if you turn to me, I’ll keep you from falling… and you say No way… and fall in… Did I threaten you with a pit of knives? No, I offered you salvation. The pit of knives is already in your path… God is just trying to keep you from falling into it.

Excellent analogy.

 

[theidler]

Your understanding is that God threatens to kill you and hurt you for not worshiping him… when it’s actually God who offers to give you life forever if you DO worship him. It’s an offer of Heaven, not a threat of Hell.

If you are about to fall into a pit full of knives and I say if you turn to me, I’ll keep you from falling… and you say No way… and fall in… Did I threaten you with a pit of knives? No, I offered you salvation. The pit of knives is already in your path… God is just trying to keep you from falling into it.

Well said.

 

[DasErlibnis]

Here’s where I get stuck in coming back to God. It’s a little like the catch-22 moral dilemna that made HAL nuts in the 2001 Space Odessey movie…

God wants us to live moral lives at all times, yes? Even when it’s not easy or convenient. We look back and admire the old martyrs who wouldn’t compromise on their beliefs and convictions, not even when threatened torture or promised rewards. They knew what was right, and no threat or temptation could sway them.

But then here’s this God who’s threatened to kill and torture me, just as the Romans threatened the early Christians, unless I swear my allegiance to Him. And to me, any Being who demands absolute obediance under threat of torture is ALWAYS wrong, God or not. He makes an immoral demand of me.

It seems a no-win. I stay true to Goodness, and he slays and punishes me. Or I give in to the fear of torture (or temptation of reward) and can never forgive myself for selling out my integrity and Goodness. It seems He gives a contradictory command… to be and do Good, and yet demands that I praise a Being who threatens to kill and torture anyone who doesn’t forsake that sense of Good to swear their allegiance to Him.

How do you reconcile that?

Lol. That is completely unintelligent. Sounds like some halfass YouTube theology. Kind of like all my pothead friends who think they don’t need to go to church because they think they’re good people because they haven’t killed anyone, oh, and they’re not racist. But it’s a pretty low bar for intellect, morality, and theology.

And here’s the thing: you’re not just wrong about it, but you know you’re wrong, you feel in your heart that everything you just wrote is a lie - and it shakes you.

But now you’re being called out on your snide little discomfort with a God who doesn’t let you do any stupid thing you want to do. And what really is going to mess you up is that you’re going to be angry and cry foul because someone else sees through the horshite.

That’s what they always do when they’re lying, they try to build a wall of integrity, “don’t blame me…I’m innocent…look at so-and-so”. You’ll have to deflect blame, probably onto the person calling you out because that’s the way to pretend to be innocent. But the fact is, you’re actually hiding something dark that only you really know about.

Problem is, now, if you go on the attack against someone for calling out your stupid remark, well, we already know. “What’s done in the dark will be brought to the light.”

But you’re not just hiding a secret, you’re hiding something that is destroying you. And that’s the real reason you wrote what you wrote. You need either justification or contrition to remove guilt. Well, I can’t say its unfortunate, but you’re not getting justification. Justification is for the ignorant, for those who just don’t know better, but YOU DO know…and you ain’t gettin out of this one. There is no logic you can provide, no justification for such venemous hate, and no amount of urban-aware street smarts is gonna change the fact that you’re not clever.

Goodluck.

Now.

That’s what you needed to hear. But here’s the answer you asked for:

God creates humans out of the necessity of Love, because they necessity of love is that it finds its fullest expression in its beloved. This is why we were created, because God is love. It’s our reason for existing. So then, why do people end up in the tortuous place called Hell? Self-rejection. They reject God, God’s plan, and truly, they reject a part of themselves which they cannot reconcile with…no matter how many times they say “I love being me!” So, they turn their own sense of rejection into a witch hunt. Blame has to go somewhere! So blame God, cuz “God made you that way”. Then, in this view God is not only a hypocrite, but also a torturer and a bad God, one not worthy of your belief. Problem is, its doesn’t cut it. If you end up in Hell it is because of hard-heartedness. God doesn’t put people in Hell, they go to Hell because they reject God, its their own free choice, and you’ve only hot this one lifetime to get over it, because the next lifetime isn’t chronological, its eternal, so you don’t only see short-sightedly (Ergo the need for faith), nope, in eternity you see all things ay all times, and your “sin is always before you” and you’ll be unable to ever let it go, and thus unable to free yourself from Hell. And so your becomes more hellish every day.

Repent. It is right and just, but also, it will free your heart and key you breathe easy.

“You know that Jesus, he’s a pretty good guy.”

 

[WoundedIcon]

Here’s where I get stuck in coming back to God. It’s a little like the catch-22 moral dilemna that made HAL nuts in the 2001 Space Odessey movie…

God wants us to live moral lives at all times, yes? Even when it’s not easy or convenient. We look back and admire the old martyrs who wouldn’t compromise on their beliefs and convictions, not even when threatened torture or promised rewards. They knew what was right, and no threat or temptation could sway them.

But then here’s this God who’s threatened to kill and torture me, just as the Romans threatened the early Christians, unless I swear my allegiance to Him. And to me, any Being who demands absolute obediance under threat of torture is ALWAYS wrong, God or not. He makes an immoral demand of me.

It seems a no-win. I stay true to Goodness, and he slays and punishes me. Or I give in to the fear of torture (or temptation of reward) and can never forgive myself for selling out my integrity and Goodness. It seems He gives a contradictory command… to be and do Good, and yet demands that I praise a Being who threatens to kill and torture anyone who doesn’t forsake that sense of Good to swear their allegiance to Him.

How do you reconcile that?

Of course, we could always say that if you don’t worship God then you won’t be able to do what’s truly good, and then the consequence of the matter (Hell) becomes totally just. And thus His “threats” are actually just an acknowledgement of the fact that you won’t be truly good without Him and will deserve to be punished for being not-good.

IOW, God decides what is good. Without God you have no standard to judge good - like this example: do humans have rights without a Maker to bestow them inherently upon us? Some would argue yes, but why? Why would clumps of cells have any inherent dignity? Rights then become artificial social constructs created on a whim to protect the survival of the species - which no one ever questions itself, I mean why is it inherently good for humanity to survive, and what if we get in the way of the survival of other beings or even the planet itself? Why not practice restricted eugenics? (Like the one child limit in China, with forced abortions and all because “overpopulation” might hurt those already alive. Kill one group to preserve another… ) It’s a horribly slippery slope, but my point was that you can’t truly defend human rights (do good) without understanding why and what those rights are through God (worship) and thus you’ll fail, do evil in some way, and deserve punishment.

 

[mgreen77]

There is no logic you can provide, no justification for such venemous hate…

Just a quick note… to say I apologize if I came across as hateful. I hesitated and struggled when creating this thread, as I realize this is a Catholic forum, and don’t want to seem disrepectful of Believers, your God or your faith. But these things have been bugging me for a long time, blasphemous as they may be to think or say.

But there must be some reason I keep coming here, like a lost creature circling the edges of the campfire light looking for scraps.

Your post and the the others, I do appreciate very much. It’s a lot to digest… you’ve given me a different angle to consider things from. Thank you.

 

[sw85]

Here’s where I get stuck in coming back to God. It’s a little like the catch-22 moral dilemna that made HAL nuts in the 2001 Space Odessey movie…

God wants us to live moral lives at all times, yes? Even when it’s not easy or convenient. We look back and admire the old martyrs who wouldn’t compromise on their beliefs and convictions, not even when threatened torture or promised rewards. They knew what was right, and no threat or temptation could sway them.

But then here’s this God who’s threatened to kill and torture me, just as the Romans threatened the early Christians, unless I swear my allegiance to Him. And to me, any Being who demands absolute obediance under threat of torture is ALWAYS wrong, God or not. He makes an immoral demand of me.

It seems a no-win. I stay true to Goodness, and he slays and punishes me. Or I give in to the fear of torture (or temptation of reward) and can never forgive myself for selling out my integrity and Goodness. It seems He gives a contradictory command… to be and do Good, and yet demands that I praise a Being who threatens to kill and torture anyone who doesn’t forsake that sense of Good to swear their allegiance to Him.

How do you reconcile that?

Understand it this way:

God exists; you are a created being.

You are a being who exists in a particular way, i.e., according to a particular mode of being. So you are not simply some kind of vague entity but a human person. Given that you sign your post “Marie” I am guessing you are a female person, which entails an even more particularized mode of being.

This mode of being is nonnegotiable – you are simply stuck being a person.

Now, goods arise out of a thing’s mode of being. Knives exist to cut things, so a good knife is one that cuts well (i.e., that is sharp) and a bad knife is one that cuts poorly. To be good is to be according to your mode of being.

So to be a good human is to be according to the human mode of being.

Now the human mode of being lends itself naturally to consciousness, reason, and will – so goodness for a human being involves CONSCIOUSLY CHOOSING to live as a human being ought to.

(This is the very reductive principle on which natural law is based).

Part of your nature as a human being is that you are created, as I said earlier: you were created by God, and are dependent on Him for your continued existence. This means you owe Him a debt of gratitude.

It does not matter whether or not God even wants your gratitude: the facts of the situation simply demand it. Your nature itself demands it. Because of this, it is GOOD that you render Him the gratitude which He is due.

Now, I said a moment ago that the goodness of a thing is existence in accordance with its mode of being. So what does that mean goodness in general is? Goodness must be simply being – the standard by which all good is measured is being, pure being, pure actuality.

But God IS pure being, pure actuality. Hence God IS goodness. (See the first two of the Five Ways for the reason why).

And because God is goodness, He wants what is good for you – and that means He wants you to worship Him: because it is good for you to do it.

Follow?

---

I said a moment ago that God is goodness. (Actually, God simply is whatever property he can be said to possess, because, being pure actuality, there is nothing about Him which He cannot literally be said to be – so God is not merely loving, for instance, he is love itself; not merely just but justice itself; and so on).

So whatever God commands is always good.

This does not mean that a thing is good merely because God commands it – God Himself has a nature, too. He cannot create anything such that He is not its creator, for instance. Therefore everything volitional He creates has a duty to worship Him. Therefore He can never command anything NOT to worship Him.

It simply means that whatever God tells you to do must be good, as a matter of metaphysical necessity, since He cannot command evil.

So whatever God tells you to do, do it.

The problem you are running into is imaging that God is Himself a moral agent. He isn’t. God is not subject to moral law: He is moral law.

Consider an example: God, being our creator and the being who sustains us in existence, is within his rights to kill us at any time (since He is under no obligation to keep us alive). It is right and proper for Him to do so.

If He tells you to kill someone else, He is simply delegating this authority to you. And you must therefore act on it.

You may not kill on your own: such would be contrary to your nature. But you may kill whomever He commands you to kill, because He is the author of your nature and may grant exceptions from it.

If you imagine that God is somehow subordinate to human nature, such that what is bad for you is necessarily bad for Him, then you are improperly elevating human nature above the divine nature and failing to respond to God with the deference due Him. This is a bad thing.

Hope this helps.

 

[Redeemed92]

Just a quick note… to say I apologize if I came across as hateful. I hesitated and struggled when creating this thread, as I realize this is a Catholic forum, and don’t want to seem disrepectful of Believers, your God or your faith. But these things have been bugging me for a long time, blasphemous as they may be to think or say.

But there must be some reason I keep coming here, like a lost creature circling the edges of the campfire light looking for scraps.

Your post and the the others, I do appreciate very much. It’s a lot to digest… you’ve given me a different angle to consider things from. Thank you.

I would like to apologize for the rather inappropriate response you received on this thread. I don’t think your tone came across as hateful, just maybe that some of these forum members have seen too many dishonest baited questions similar tothe one you have posted. As long as you are dedicated to finding the truth, and not just annoying other forum members, questions like this can be helpful in the gaining of understanding.

In regards to your actual question, I would say that bmullins analogy works well. It should also be noted that God is all good and trying to grab you before you fall into the pit of knives.

Keep coming back! You are welcome here! I did the same thing in my learning process before it all became clear.

 

[Buck_Crosswhite]

Here’s where I get stuck in coming back to God. It’s a little like the catch-22 moral dilemna that made HAL nuts in the 2001 Space Odessey movie…

God wants us to live moral lives at all times, yes? Even when it’s not easy or convenient. We look back and admire the old martyrs who wouldn’t compromise on their beliefs and convictions, not even when threatened torture or promised rewards. They knew what was right, and no threat or temptation could sway them.

But then here’s this God who’s threatened to kill and torture me, just as the Romans threatened the early Christians, unless I swear my allegiance to Him. And to me, any Being who demands absolute obediance under threat of torture is ALWAYS wrong, God or not. He makes an immoral demand of me.

It seems a no-win. I stay true to Goodness, and he slays and punishes me. Or I give in to the fear of torture (or temptation of reward) and can never forgive myself for selling out my integrity and Goodness. It seems He gives a contradictory command… to be and do Good, and yet demands that I praise a Being who threatens to kill and torture anyone who doesn’t forsake that sense of Good to swear their allegiance to Him.

How do you reconcile that?

I’m afraid you don’t understand God at all. He made us so we can know, love, and serve Him and then enjoy eternity with Him. You have an empty spot in your heart just like everyone else. This emptiness is a natural yearning for God.
God doesn’t send anyone to Hell. They go there of their own free will.

 

[rom422]

And to me, any Being who demands absolute obediance under threat of torture is ALWAYS wrong, God or not. He makes an immoral demand of me.

If you don’t owe anything to God, then I can understand why you feel it wrong for Him to demand your absolute love and allegiance. But you owe everything to Him. You owe Him your life, and your ability to enjoy the good things that He had created. So, what He is demanding from you is just exactly what you ought to give Him anyway. He is not being unjust or unfair. You are the one being unjust or unfair for refusing to give Him the love that He deserves, don’t you think?

Now, you might say, “But I didn’t ask Him to create me.” So, if I give you $1,000.00, then you will not say “Thank you” because you didn’t ask for it? If you were the donor, and out of the goodness of your heart you gave $1,000.00 to a person, would you feel good if the person is ungrateful? Maybe you are the kind of donor that does not expect a “Thank you” from the recipient. Fine, but you still expect that person to be silently grateful or at least not to be openly ungrateful, right?

Or is it because you don’t like being threatened with torture if you fail to respond properly? I understand that. I myself don’t want to be threatened. But how sure are you that He was threatening you? When your mother tells you, “Look on both sides before you cross the street because if you don’t, you can be seriously hurt and might suffer incredible pains from a car accident,” is she threatening you or is she merely helping you how to get to your destination safely? In this world you are in a journey toward Heaven. God is helping you get there, rather than threatening you, when He reveals to you the pains that would result from your poor choices.

God bless!

 

[ASimon]

If you don’t owe anything to God, then I can understand why you feel it wrong for Him to demand your absolute love and allegiance. But you owe everything to Him. You owe Him your life, and your ability to enjoy the good things that He had created. So, what He is demanding from you is just exactly what you ought to give Him anyway. He is not being unjust or unfair. You are the one being unjust or unfair for refusing to give Him the love that He deserves, don’t you think?

Does everyone owe God this thanks? What about people who live lives of continuous pain and terror, never certain where their next meal is coming from or if they’ll even be alive to eat it? Because there are people in this world who meet this criteria.

Now, you might say, “But I didn’t ask Him to create me.” So, if I give you $1,000.00, then you will not say “Thank you” because you didn’t ask for it? If you were the donor, and out of the goodness of your heart you gave $1,000.00 to a person, would you feel good if the person is ungrateful? Maybe you are the kind of donor that does not expect a “Thank you” from the recipient. Fine, but you still expect that person to be silently grateful or at least not to be openly ungrateful, right?

If you gave me $1,000.00 as a gift, I’d say “Thank you.” Once. But this is a false analogy. Because God doesn’t ask us for a single “Thank you.” God asks us to thank him at every moment of every day for all our lives, and then for all of eternity after that. If you expected that of me, I’d give you your thousand dollars back. It’s not worth being an emotional slave.

 

[bmullins]

Does everyone owe God this thanks? What about people who live lives of continuous pain and terror, never certain where their next meal is coming from or if they’ll even be alive to eat it? Because there are people in this world who meet this criteria.

I have lived the past 7 years in chronic pain with a fused spine, and several forms of arthritis that can make moving excruciating at best. I live on a limited income and there are times I go hungry and don’t know that I am going to afford any food, let alone medicine for the pain. I still give him thanks. Why? It could be worse. I could be unable to move at all, confined to a chair with a computer talking for me. I could be any number of things worse off than I am.

Yet, through it all I see that there is a promise of redemption. What you see as an angry God forcing us through hell and back to ‘make us love him’, I see a God who loves us so much that he offers us redemption even though we don’t deserve it. A God who could have forced us to love him, but didn’t. Instead he gave us the choice. Just like my children, I don’t force them to love me. I don’t beat them when they don’t. But when they turn to me and say “I love you daddy”… well there is nothing better. Nothing. That alone is worth living for.

 

[ASimon]

I have lived the past 7 years in chronic pain with a fused spine, and several forms of arthritis that can make moving excruciating at best. I live on a limited income and there are times I go hungry and don’t know that I am going to afford any food, let alone medicine for the pain. I still give him thanks. Why? It could be worse. I could be unable to move at all, confined to a chair with a computer talking for me. I could be any number of things worse off than I am.

Yet, through it all I see that there is a promise of redemption. What you see as an angry God forcing us through hell and back to ‘make us love him’, I see a God who loves us so much that he offers us redemption even though we don’t deserve it. A God who could have forced us to love him, but didn’t. Instead he gave us the choice. Just like my children, I don’t force them to love me. I don’t beat them when they don’t. But when they turn to me and say “I love you daddy”… well there is nothing better. Nothing. That alone is worth living for.

And that’s great, but I don’t think it really addresses my question. It’s one thing to be masochistic - to consider yourself an unworthy wretch as punishment for crimes you had no part in committing. But masochism, pretty much by definition, is a solitary mindset. What troubles me is this implication that everyone else should be just as thankful as you are, because in principle, anyone’s life can always get at least a little bit worse than it presently is.

 

[sw85]

Does everyone owe God this thanks? What about people who live lives of continuous pain and terror, never certain where their next meal is coming from or if they’ll even be alive to eat it? Because there are people in this world who meet this criteria.

Would God’s goodness be any less simply because we are in pain? No? Then we still owe Him worship. Even in Hell.

If you gave me $1,000.00 as a gift, I’d say “Thank you.” Once. But this is a false analogy. Because God doesn’t ask us for a single “Thank you.” God asks us to thank him at every moment of every day for all our lives, and then for all of eternity after that. If you expected that of me, I’d give you your thousand dollars back. It’s not worth being an emotional slave.

That stands to reason, since God is all that sustains us in existence every moment of every day of our lives – hence the worship must be proportionate. For the record, a few minutes of daily prayer and an hour a week hardly constitute “every moment of every day for all our lives.”

Your last sentence is telling. You object to reality because it constrains your “freedom.” I’m always amazed how modern atheists are oblivious to the fact that they sound *exactly *like Milton’s Lucifer.

 

[rom422]

Does everyone owe God this thanks? What about people who live lives of continuous pain and terror, never certain where their next meal is coming from or if they’ll even be alive to eat it? Because there are people in this world who meet this criteria.

Yes, everyone owe God this thanks. But before I proceed, I noticed that you are an atheist. So, I am not sure whether this discussion would even mean anything to you. For example, would there be any point for me to debate on whether I ought to be grateful or not grateful to the Flying Giant Spaghetti Monster when I know that there is no such thing? So, my answers to you will be at best hypothetical, and would be based on certain assumptions.

First,* assuming that you believe in God,* then I would remind you that much of the suffering that we find in this world is actually man made; so, should you be blaming God for that? Who do you think is polluting our rivers and the air we breathe? Why do you think AIDS spread in many places like Africa? Now, of course, there are also natural events that come from the hand of God. We often regard them as “evil” but only because we do not know what God’s great plan for the world is. Pain, for example, is not exactly an evil once you realize that God gave it to us as part of our body’s defense mechanism. Because pain serves as a warning signal, to alert us that something is wrong. You might complain, for example, that toothache is an evil. But does it not serve to remind you that you might have a cavity? Without that annoying toothache, you might not even think of visiting your dentist, and the problem could get worst. This post will be excessively long if I give you an endless list of examples. It suffices to remind you that God placed physical laws in nature that serve to put the world in order, but which you and others could find inconvenient or “evil.”

Now, assuming that besides believing in God, you also believe in the Bible, then I would remind you that when God created man, He originally placed him in paradise, where there was no hunger, sickness, or death. Hunger, sickness and death only came as a penalty for Adam’s sin.

Like I said, my answers will probably not be satisfactory to you. But that’s OK. I am not here to convince you. I am here to explain our faith. We Catholics believe that hunger and poverty, for example, are often due to the injustice committed by some men to other men. We would not blame God for that. On the contrary, we are grateful that, because God permits moral evil or sin to happen in the world, that we now have an opportunity to exercise the virtue of forgiveness to sinners, generosity to those in need, and patience to those who burden us. For us the exercise of these virtues are stepping stones to Heaven. Praised be the Lord!

If you gave me $1,000.00 as a gift, I’d say “Thank you.” Once. But this is a false analogy. Because God doesn’t ask us for a single “Thank you.” God asks us to thank him at every moment of every day for all our lives, and then for all of eternity after that. If you expected that of me, I’d give you your thousand dollars back. It’s not worth being an emotional slave.

If next month I give you another $1,000.00, will you thank me again? If after that, I give you another $1,000.00 the following month, will you thank me again? I suppose you would. The truth is, we receive gifts from God, not just monthly, but continuously. He preserves us in existence by a continuous act of creation. What is known as “divine conservation (or preservation)” is God’s act of sustaining the world in being. Existence is like light in an enclosed room; it depends on the continuous supply of energy. Once I turn off the light switch, the illumination instantly goes away. If God does not sustain us in being, the whole world will be annihilated in an instant. So, to answer you, yes, we need to thank God every day and every moment of the day. Also, once you realize what Christ has done for you, that He suffered to put an end to your eternal suffering, then I think you ought to be forever grateful for His goodness.

God bless!

 

[Contarini]

God wants us to live moral lives at all times, yes? Even when it’s not easy or convenient. We look back and admire the old martyrs who wouldn’t compromise on their beliefs and convictions, not even when threatened torture or promised rewards. They knew what was right, and no threat or temptation could sway them.

But then here’s this God who’s threatened to kill and torture me, just as the Romans threatened the early Christians, unless I swear my allegiance to Him. And to me, any Being who demands absolute obediance under threat of torture is ALWAYS wrong, God or not. He makes an immoral demand of me.

It seems a no-win. I stay true to Goodness, and he slays and punishes me. Or I give in to the fear of torture (or temptation of reward) and can never forgive myself for selling out my integrity and Goodness. It seems He gives a contradictory command… to be and do Good, and yet demands that I praise a Being who threatens to kill and torture anyone who doesn’t forsake that sense of Good to swear their allegiance to Him.

How do you reconcile that?

What is the good thing that God requires you to forsake?

God’s punishments are not arbitrary or unjust. In fact, many Christians today (including myself) would say that God does not choose to punish anyone just for the sake of retribution. Evil comes with its own punishment, and this is God’s wrath insofar as God has created a universe that reflects His moral nature. It is also possible that God punishes the wicked insofar as He does not entirely abandon them, and they have made themselves incapable of experiencing Him except as torment.

But your premise, one way or another, is simply wrong. God isn’t requiring you to abandon any good or embrace any evil.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

IOW, God decides what is good.

I strongly disagree with this, except in the sense that God chooses to create certain kinds of creatures, and much ethics depends on the particular nature of a certain creature.

The moral order itself is not “decided” by God. It cannot be other than it is, God being who He is. It reflects God’s nature, not God’s will.

See the Pope’s Regensburg speech for an excellent discussion of this.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Just a quick note… to say I apologize if I came across as hateful. I hesitated and struggled when creating this thread, as I realize this is a Catholic forum, and don’t want to seem disrepectful of Believers, your God or your faith.

Speaking for myself, I don’t think your post was hateful at all. It just reflects a lack of understanding of the classical, central tradition of Christian teaching regarding the nature of God and of the moral order.

Many Christians do think about God the way you imply in your OP, and they, not you, are the blasphemers!

The Left Behind books, for instance, in my opinion present a God whom it would be blasphemy to worship and piety to defy.

Edwin