Isn't it time to back off the Pope?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JReducation
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

JReducation

Guest
It may be time that traditionalists back down and give the Holy Father a break. Look at several important points. The Holy Father was elected a few days before Palm Sunday. Along with the formalities that follow a papal election came the celebrations from Palm Sunday to Easter Sunday. Let’s be real. Can anyone find a human being who can accommodate all of that into 18 days and do much of anything else?

Some people are saying that all they’ve seen are social justice gestures. But stop and think. These gestures do not require much discernment, dialogue, study or any kind of investigation. The obvious is obvious, plain and simple. If you have the poor, the disabled, the elderly, the sick, you know what needs to be done. You don’t need to call together a committee to get some ideas. These are situations that any bishop would have faced in his home diocese. When he comes to Rome as it’s bishop, it’s easy to respond.

On the other hand, issues like the SSPX. Vatican Bank, sex abuse scandals, the curia, persecution of Eastern Catholics, women’s ordination, laws that authorize: same sex marriage, abortion, contraception over job creation, capital punishment rather than the protection of morality, feminism instead of justice and protection for all women, these are not moral issues to which the Church can respond in 18 days. The Church has spoken to these things in the past. What she said has not work or worked a little, but more needs to be said. She can’t just repeat the same thing. If it was not heard the first time, it won’t be heard the second time. She must keep the substance and reformat the presentation in the hope of getting the attention of the world. Who of us can do this in 18 days along with everything else that the pope had to do?

Let us not forget that this man was not on vacation. He was running one of the most challenging archdioceses in South America with an assortment of problems of its own. One of his concerns was that his election had left that diocese without an ordinary. If my memory serves me right, Pope Benedict never gave Buenos Aires auxiliary bishops. Once Cardinal Bergoglio was elected, the archdiocese was in the hands of the Vicar General who served as the apostolic administrator. This also required the man’s immediate attention.

This is a 76 year old man. Most bishops are not starting a second career at the age of 76. They’re growing an herb garden, playing golf, enjoying their grandnephews and grandnieces, or back in their religious communities enjoying some quiet prayer time and solitude. The steady rhythm of activities, the change in climate, diet, living quarters, surroundings, staff, language and being away from home is exhausting.

I think it’s fair to back off, stop the criticism, stop fearing that he’s going to change dogma, because he’s style is Jesuit and not Roman. It’s time to wait and let him catch his breath before he begins to grapple with the big issues that require thought, prayer, discussion and careful planning.

What he wears, what car he rides, where he lives and whether his friends call him Pope Francis, Bergoglio, Father Jorge or just plain Jorge are non issues. Those are his personal choices and none of our business. Our business is that he run the Church. In order to run the Church, he has to stop running around. However, the last 18 days have been packed. This week is the first time that he does not have a major audience or a major liturgy for every day of the week.

Let those who can do what this 76 year old man has done in 18 days criticize, complain, and second guess. Those of us who can’t should be looking at him in awe and taking lessons on how to keep going.
 
:clapping: Give him some time. It’s still to early to tell what impact he will have on the church.
 
I’ve been amazed and saddened by how many traditionalists seem to want a Pope that talks allot about Jesus Christ, but are horrified when we get a Pope who acts like Jesus Christ. I try to stay away from these forums because they tend to lead me to uncharitable thoughts about fellow Catholics, and none of my thoughts have been less charitable than the last couple of weeks. Thank God for someone like JReducation on these forums!
 
Isn’t it time to back off traditionalists ?

You people are lumping a lot of orthodox Catholics together with the hard hearted trads and assuming all trads are bashing the pope. That’s a shame.

The most active trad forum these days has just as many members posting positive things about the pope as those who are complaining. The forum owner has posted a thread warning those who are crossing the line.

None of that matters though, does it ?
 
Personally, I think it is too early to either attack OR defend the Pope.

As a ‘liberal’ (if that term has any meaning on this board), it is too easy to be smug and smile from the sidelines. That popcorn smiley seems appropriate. There is a part of me that wants to tell you not to fret too much about what the people on this board who may call themselves traditionalists or conservatives feel. Such attacks always say a lot more about the person doing the attacking than the one being attacked.

Too many of them aren’t really conservative or traditional, but some kind of caricature or facsimile of a conservative or traditionalist. They are like a vine that has not been pruned of its dead branches. They like to fancy themselves as being defenders of a Church under attack by liberals, etc. The leadership of the Church, though, has been and still is wildly stacked in their favor with the vast majority of Bishops and Cardinals and probably even Francis I being significantly more conservative than liberal.

It is this stacking in their favor that hurts the conservative movement. Conservatives have not been seriously challenged to prune themselves of the dead wood for a while and have lost the ability to discern the dead wood from the living. People defend not washing the feet of women with the same intensity as defeating abortion as if they are morally equivalent in some sense. If Francis I is a ‘liberal’ (I have my doubts still), it will only make the conservative movement stronger, by forcing it to reevaluate what it thinks are the most important things to focus on. To put it bluntly, the only way to pass through the narrow gate is to get rid of unnecessary baggage.

God answers our prayers and protects the Church but not always in a way that is most comfortable for us. Perhaps Francis I challenging of what is traditional is one of those uncomfortable protections. More than likely Pope Francis also has some uncomfortable pruning ahead for me and other liberals as well.
 
I agree we need to give him a chance, but I have a couple of questions.

How many threads like this do we need, considering there are very few trads here in the first place ? I see no threads here in TC criticizing him. 🤷

You have this one running BrotherJR
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=771486
You’re right about one thing. That’s my post. But that’s not the title that I gave it and there are more posts in there that are not related to my original post. My original idea was to discuss Pope Francis in context in order to understand him better. If you read that post to which you link, you’ll see that.

My idea here is a little different. My idea here is to call people to reconsider the constant criticism… You’re right about something else too. I should have said “radical traditionalist” rather than traditionalists.

If truth be known, most of the traditionalist whom I know are very simple people who simply want to nurture their spiritual life with those customs and traditions that they’ve always known or if they’re younger, those customs and traditions of their parents and grandparents, which they want to make their own. There is nothing wrong with that at all. It’s noble.

The radical traditionalists are the people of whom the different newspaper writes about. They’re the ones who need to back off and give this man a chance to catch his breath.

I APOLOGIZE TO TRADITIONALISTS.

I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE SPECIFIC AND USED THE TERM RADICAL TRADITIONALISTS

One more thing, the caps are not because I’m shouting. I just want to make sure that everyone sees it. :yup:
 
As a ‘liberal’ (if that term has any meaning on this board).
To me its meaning is nothing more than “self excommunicated Catholic.” Liberalism and Catholicism are incompatible with each other. Unfortunately there seems to be far too many out of touch with this fact (including leaders in our own faith).

As for our new Holy Father, I can’t say much yet other than I definitely have nothing negative to say. Ask me perhaps after the inevitable Third Council is called. Such a council could perhaps restore some of the principals of our faith lost to Vatican II (since now 50 years later we can say its intention clearly didn’t work) and we’ll be back on the right track for our religion to flourish again.
 
Isn’t it time to back off traditionalists ?

You people are lumping a lot of orthodox Catholics together with the hard hearted trads and assuming all trads are bashing the pope. That’s a shame.

The most active trad forum these days has just as many members posting positive things about the pope as those who are complaining. The forum owner has posted a thread warning those who are crossing the line.

None of that matters though, does it ?
A simple read through her “forum” reveals people saying horrific and scandalous things about the Pope. The only reason she put a warning up is because a few went as far as to wish for his death, and she got called out for it. She get no sympathy from me considering the filth that is posted on that site.
As for “you people” (taking lessons from Archie Bunker?) “lumping a lot of orthodox Catholics together with the hard hearted trads”, that’s baloney. A true orthodox and traditional Catholic will take a stand against such nonsense.
I and many others have.
Why don’t you?
 
Personally, I think it is too early to either attack OR defend the Pope.

Such attacks always say a lot more about the person doing the attacking than the one being attacked.

ll.
I thought we were his sheep…or his wolves…?:confused:
And there´s much discussion about doctrine,morals…🤷
 
You are right that it is none of our business where he lives and what car he rides in. I am totally obedient to the pope. But the whole business of washing two women’s feet; I mean he broke a Church Law and I have still not had it explained to me sufficiently why that is ok. I know some will say that the Pope is above Church Law, but still, it is the example that concerns many.
 
You are right that it is none of our business where he lives and what car he rides in. I am totally obedient to the pope. But the whole business of washing two women’s feet; I mean he broke a Church Law and I have still not had it explained to me sufficiently why that is ok. I know some will say that the Pope is above Church Law, but still, it is the example that concerns many.
I believe trying to understand things like this is hard. I have read a few posts from Br. Jay that I believe explained it quite well. I believe the reason it is hard to understand is because we find it scary and hard to open ourselves like Pope Francis is calling us to do. Well I know for me to open myself up to the possibility that something I believed could actually be wrong or just not quite right scares the hell out of me and I mean that literally. But if we do not open ourselves up and try to understand what it is we do not get right or have right with everything we believe how will we ever grow into what God wants us to be. It seems to me we will be like dead water and not Living Water.
 
I seem to be missing something here. Are Traditional Catholics now openly attacking Pope Francis on the CA Forum ?
 
On the other hand, issues like the SSPX. Vatican Bank, sex abuse scandals, the curia, persecution of Eastern Catholics, women’s ordination, laws that authorize: same sex marriage, abortion, contraception over job creation, capital punishment rather than the protection of morality, feminism instead of justice and protection for all women, these are not moral issues to which the Church can respond in 18 days.
Nice of you to put SSPX at the front of your list!😃
 
You are right that it is none of our business where he lives and what car he rides in. I am totally obedient to the pope. But the whole business of washing two women’s feet; I mean he broke a Church Law and I have still not had it explained to me sufficiently why that is ok. I know some will say that the Pope is above Church Law, but still, it is the example that concerns many.
He did not break a Church law. The legislator is not bound by the law. A pope can change a law any time. He can dispense with a law for any reason.

In this case, he simply did not observe the law, which is not the same as breaking the law. You’re guilty of breaking the law if you’re under the law. If you’re the one who makes the laws, then you’re not under the law.

Think of a parent in a home. The parent establishes a bedtime. One night, for whatever reason, the parent stays up past the established bedtime. Is the parent breaking the law or does the parent not have the right to stay up, regardless of the law?

The answer is obvious. He’s the parent. He made the law. He gets to decide when to apply it and when not to do so. No one else in the house has that kind of authority.

The same goes with popes. They decide when to apply the law and when not to do so. No one else does.

In addition to this, there is also a canon, which says that no one can judge the pope. That canon comes from a very long tradition that says, “The pope is above the law.”

If you were to judge someone, you have to do so using law. If that someone is above the law, you can’t judge him.

Those who are telling you that he broke the law are judging him. They have no legal right to do so, because he has the right to dispense with the law whenever he believes it is necessary to do so. That’s what happened here. This was the same thing as Pope Benedict giving Holy Communion to Brother Roger of Taize. He believed that it was necessary to do so. He acted within the parameters of our faith, which always trump law.

Church law is written to support the life of faith, not the other way around. The law must always be subject to the faith, not faith to the law. The law does not dictate what we believe. It dictates according to our belief.

Who is the supreme teacher of the faith? The Pontiff. If his faith tells him that this is the greater good, he has the right to suspend with the law in this one instance. No one else can do that. Because the Church is built on the faith of Peter, not on my faith.
 
You are right that it is none of our business where he lives and what car he rides in. I am totally obedient to the pope. But the whole business of washing two women’s feet; I mean he broke a Church Law and I have still not had it explained to me sufficiently why that is ok. I know some will say that the Pope is above Church Law, but still, it is the example that concerns many.
The pope is an absolute monarch. Whose law is it to break but his? Had it been in St. Peter’s Basilica he may have done different. I don’t think it’s a big deal myself and I’m about the most traditional Catholic my age that you’ll find.
 
I seem to be missing something here. Are Traditional Catholics now openly attacking Pope Francis on the CA Forum ?
Not so much here, but have you read newspapers lately and some blogs on the internet. There is a radical traditionalist something out there that wants this man’s blood. I say something, because I don’t think that it’s an organized group. I think it’s more of a passion that is very impatient. As I asked, how much can a human being do in 18 days to prove that he’s orthodox? The man needs time to catch his breath.
Nice of you to put SSPX at the front of your list!😃
Hey, at the top of the list, the middle of the list or the end of the list, the SSPX belongs on the list. It’s not something that can be ignored. Where the Holy Father places the SSPX on his “To Do List” is still unknown.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top