Isn't modern science overrated?

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Please prodive scientific evidence, that grabing the next baby you see from her mothers arms and take it home to have “dinner” is objectively wrong.

(And please do not stop by providing evidence that a stable society needs to regard this as wrong, because that only shifts the question for scientific evidence, why a stable society is preferable, besides there have been somewhat stable societies in spite of cannibalism.Even if you argue that without stable society there would be no science, this doesnt help much, as then scientific evidence in favor for having science is necessary, which might be a bit cricular. And no, i am not suggesting you are amoral, i’m just suggesting you do not have scentific evidence in favor of being moral. Furthermore, a majority of people finding something disgusting isn’t scientific evidence either.)

In case you fail at providing scientific evidence that eating babies is wrong, you are left with two options:

-science is the only way of knowing objective truth and one cannot objectively say its wrong to eat babies

-its objectively wrong to eat babies, but science cannot show, therefore it must be possible to acquire obejective knowledge in some other way (which could be anything according to personal preference, most posters here would probably suggest Christianity)

(Note that i find neither conclusion in any way despicable, i just dislike people proclaiming that science is the only way for objective truth, but then skipping the issue that science offers at least no obvious evidence that eating babies might be wrong.)
You are assuming he said “Science can know ANY objective truth”. He didn’t say that. He said that if you reach an objective truth, that must be through science. Science never claimed to find ALL the answers, especially not ethical ones.

Studer is wrong, but not for the reasons you are advocating. Studer is wrong because science cannot reach an objective truth. It can only make predictions, very accurate ones, but that you could never call “objective truth”. A scientific theory is a model, made to be refuted. An objective truth is absolute, permanent, this is not scientific. In fact, as I said in another thread:

Philosophy and science actually have the same problem: induction. For example, you never saw a yellow raven, you saw hundreds and hundreds of black ones, you can have an inductive reasoning: “I never saw a yellow raven, therefore they doesn’t exist”. This is obviously flawed. You are trying to imagine laws to explain what you see that extend beyond what you already saw. It has good chances to work, but you can never be sure it is 100% truth. However, if one day you see a yellow raven, then you can have a direct deductive reasoning and safely say “Yellow ravens exist”. But this is not science, it is pure logic.

Science and philosophy try to get general laws, and are deeply flawed because of this induction problem. That’s why informed people will never claim they know the objective truth thanks to a scientific theory.
 
  1. “IMPACT SCIENCE,” which tells us our gluttonous pursuits of materials goods and pleasures is in fact harming life on planet earth (including us) tends to be UNDERRATED. No one wants to believe it, and no one wants the party of wild materialistic debauchery, gluttony, and profligacy to be over. And they totally underrate any science which says anthropogenic climate change is real, with the implication that we have to rethink that party. So the chant goes, kill the scientists, kill the messengers; they are evil and bad.
Unfortunately this area of science is compromised by a lot of irrational and anti-human bias, sometimes even with tendencies similar to religion. As an example, consider DDT, it was banned based on little evidence in many countries in the 60s and 70s. India didnt ban it. In Africa malaria killed dozens of millions of people, in India malaria is nearly extinct. And the WHO decided some years ago, to use again DDT in areas suffering seriously from malaria.

Which leads to the conclusion that what you call Impact Science though skipping scientific standards for ideological reasons is possibly responsible for dozens of millions of people dying. Science must be about evidence, whenever its about the conclusions and some being preferred its not science but nonsense, often dangerous.
 
Science must be about evidence, whenever its about the conclusions and some being preferred its not science but nonsense, often dangerous.
This is a very complex issue. Science is about predictions. You validate a theory through testing it with observations. If what you predicted matches the observations, the theory is validated. Science is about evidence AND conclusions. Evidences alone is book-keeping and is useless: you gather data, what do you do with it ? You need to analyze it and draw conclusions. When a choice has to be made in a major, life-threatening situation, we ask science to provide an answer because, though it is not perfect, it is the only tool we have. When it fails, people suddenly discover that science is not an infallible mechanism and try to dismiss ALL of its product.
 
You are assuming he said “Science can know ANY objective truth”. He didn’t say that. He said that if you reach an objective truth, that must be through science. Science never claimed to find ALL the answers, especially not ethical ones.
I did not assume that. I only pointed that then the conclusions is, that there is no objective knowledge in the area of ethics.
“one cannot objectively say its wrong to eat babies”

That leaves still the possibility that its objectively wrong, but based on science alone one cannot know.

That he claimed that science does lead to objective knowledge is only somewhat imprecise. Science needs some assumptions (which are of the category that anybody not adherring to them is normally regarded to be insane) and from these approximates objective truth with an on average decreasing error. Thats of course not objective knowledge, but for practical human existance approximation of objective knowledge is nearly indistinguishable from objective knowledge.
 
This is a very complex issue. Science is about predictions. You validate a theory through testing it with observations. If what you predicted matches the observations, the theory is validated. Science is about evidence AND conclusions. Evidences alone is book-keeping and is useless: you gather data, what do you do with it ? You need to analyze it and draw conclusions. When a choice has to be made in a major, life-threatening situation, we ask science to provide an answer because, though it is not perfect, it is the only tool we have. When it fails, people suddenly discover that science is not an infallible mechanism and try to dismiss ALL of its product.
I worded it wrongly, science must not have preferrences about conclusions. What the poster called impact science, has preferences, therefore its bad science.
 
Unfortunately this area of science is compromised by a lot of irrational and anti-human bias, sometimes even with tendencies similar to religion. As an example, consider DDT, it was banned based on little evidence in many countries in the 60s and 70s. India didnt ban it. In Africa malaria killed dozens of millions of people, in India malaria is nearly extinct. And the WHO decided some years ago, to use again DDT in areas suffering seriously from malaria.
That’s sort of the case of “why things bite back” (book about how solutions lead to further problems). Did you see the movie The Jerk or read the book, The Lathe of Heaven?

Science is not the same thing as policy, tho it may have policy implications. One of the policy implications of our current global warming is that we should reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. But this doesn’t tell us how to do that. So people could choose to freeze to death in the dark, or swelter to death in the heat,

OR they could lower their GHG emissions down by 30%, 50%, even 75% by becoming energy & resource efficient and conservative in ways that save them $1000s without lowering their living standards or productivity, and go on alt energy when cost-effective and feasible,

OR we could just let GW happen and kill off 90% of life on earth, as happened 251 mya during the end-Permian great warming, or maybe kill off all of life on planet earth (see esp pg 24 of columbia.edu/~jeh1/2008/AGUBjerknes_20081217.pdf ).

Choices, choices, choices.
Which leads to the conclusion that what you call Impact Science though skipping scientific standards for ideological reasons is possibly responsible for dozens of millions of people dying. Science must be about evidence, whenever its about the conclusions and some being preferred its not science but nonsense, often dangerous.
I know the climate scientists (some of them personally) and I trust them (I’ve been following the science like a hawk for over 20 years). My main complaint being that they, as most scientists, are very conservative, striving to avoid the FALSE POSITIVE of making false claims, so they are reticent to say AGW is happening, unless they are 95% confident (reaching .05 p on the null), with the first studies reaching that in 1995 and the science on anthropogenic climate change becoming ever more robust since.

I trust JPII and BXVI, who have admonished us over and over again to mitigate AGW since 1990, the year I started mitigating AGW, because I happen to be prolife and don’t like killing people. And now I’m laughing all the way to the bank, singing “Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be given unto you. Allelu, Alleluia,” having reduced our GHG emissions by over 60%, with still more to reduce and more $$$$ to save.

I’m sort of at the point of thinking that people have this unconscious hatred for their children (who poop & pee & cry as babies and wreck their cars as teens), and sort of hope they get wiped out. No, that just can’t be. They are also cute and adorable. But then why do so many people have abortions? And why are there so many climate change denialists?

Is there a social scientist in the house? Oh yeh, I am one. Well, one thing I can tell for sure (.05 p on the null), there is no such thing as an economically rational man, and we are naked killer apes underneath our monkey suits, and Adam really did bite into that apple pretty hard, and we are descendents of Cain.

Jesus save us!
 
This reminds me of the Monty Python clip from Life of Brian: What have the Romans ever done for us?

youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

“Science tripled our life expectancy.”

“Well OK, but besides that?”

“Science enabled us to travel around the world in a single day!”

“Well OK, but besides that?”

“Science has made everyone’s lives more comfortable!”

“Well OK, but besides that?”

“What else do you want?”

🤷
 
This reminds me of the Monty Python clip from Life of Brian: What have the Romans ever done for us?

youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

“Science tripled our life expectancy.”

“Well OK, but besides that?”

“Science enabled us to travel around the world in a single day!”

“Well OK, but besides that?”

“Science has made everyone’s lives more comfortable!”

“Well OK, but besides that?”

“What else do you want?”

🤷
👍
 
This reminds me of the Monty Python clip from Life of Brian: What have the Romans ever done for us?

youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

“Science tripled our life expectancy.”

“Well OK, but besides that?”

“Science enabled us to travel around the world in a single day!”

“Well OK, but besides that?”

“Science has made everyone’s lives more comfortable!”

“Well OK, but besides that?”

“What else do you want?”

🤷
We want what science refuses to give: truth.

To all the above: we are going to die so these things are ultimately unimportant.
 
We want what science refuses to give: truth.
As I understand it there’s not a refusal to provide you with “truth.” Rather as an acknowledged to epistemological limitations the conclusions drawn in science are provisional.
To all the above: we are going to die so these things are ultimately unimportant.
There’s something I find intriguing about making present day evaluations on something based on how one expects to feel about the matter after death. Can’t say it’s something that I can fully relate to.
 
Science evaluates demonstrable evidence to determine what we can know to almost certainty. I say “know” because we see things that operate consistently produce the same effects. Faith is belief without reason. And we do not worship science. It is a lens and applied logic.
 
Science evaluates demonstrable evidence to determine what we can know to almost certainty. I say “know” because we see things that operate consistently produce the same effects. Faith is belief without reason. And we do not worship science. It is a lens and applied logic.
Your definition of faith not applicable to a discusion of science in the context of Catholic teaching.

CCC said:
166 Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.

In other words faith is belief with reason. Which is why faith properly understood and science properly performed are complementary and compatable methods for the search for truth.
 
I’d like to ask what Galileo thought of the Church and science…
 
166 Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.

In other words faith is belief with reason. Which is why faith properly understood and science properly performed are complementary and compatable methods for the search for truth.
I fail to see how this means what you say it means. This text is not about reason but about faith as a collective experience.
 
This reminds me of the Monty Python clip from Life of Brian: What have the Romans ever done for us?

youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

“Science tripled our life expectancy.”

“Well OK, but besides that?”

“Science enabled us to travel around the world in a single day!”

“Well OK, but besides that?”

“Science has made everyone’s lives more comfortable!”

“Well OK, but besides that?”

“What else do you want?”

🤷
Bottom of the same inning in Hollywoodball - Science takes a hit from Woody Allen. :rolleyes: (Scene from “Sleeper”. Scientists query newly awakened, cryogenically frozen
“Miles Monroe” two centuries later. 😃

youtube.com/watch?v=1yCeFmn_e2c

best line: " … precisely the opposite of what we*** NOW KNOW ***to be true!"
 
There was a time when religion explained everything both divine and mundane, but then we ran into all sorts of problems. Religion was not meant for that and was beyond its scope

Today, we have science taking over wanting to explain everything both divine and mundane, but again, we have all sorts of problems. It would be naive, arrogant and unscientific to say only what can be perceived by our human senses exists, rest are all are a myth.

Let science do its bit and religion its bit. Let them not overstep their legitimate boundaries or limits and respect one another. Let science stick to “how the heavens go around,” and let religion focus on “how to go to heaven.” True religion and honest science are friends that complement one another, not opponents.
 
As someone who both likes Aristotle and attended science classes, I’ve never really understood why average people are so enthralled with “science” that they have to build whole world-views out of it.

What is so great about modern science?
I am a scientist. Have been doing funded research for 15 years.
Science is a tool. And no matter how good the hammer, it is still only a hammer.

I think your question isn’t getting at the utility of science, but you want to more specifically ask about those who have treated science as a belief system. Lets consider the brilliant mathematician and practicing theoretical physicist Stephen hawking. Professor hawking deserves our respect as a brilliant scientist. He deserves a big “roll of the eyes” when he confusingly speaks as if the scientific method can be used to examine anything but the physical world.
So if you are asking about the arrogance that seems intimately linked with making ourselves Gods through mighty deeds and knowledge that do not glorify God by trying to understand the reality he made for us or showing our love, then, yes, science is a golden calf.
 
There was a time when religion explained everything both divine and mundane, but then we ran into all sorts of problems. Religion was not meant for that and was beyond its scope

Today, we have science taking over wanting to explain everything both divine and mundane, but again, we have all sorts of problems. It would be naive, arrogant and unscientific to say only what can be perceived by our human senses exists, rest are all are a myth.

Let science do its bit and religion its bit. Let them not overstep their legitimate boundaries or limits and respect one another. Let science stick to “how the heavens go around,” and let religion focus on “how to go to heaven.” True religion and honest science are friends that complement one another, not opponents.
So true.

I’m thinking part of the problem is that in ancient times religion was everything and the Bible (for instance) reflects the science (of the day), philosophy, ethics, entertainment, history, as well as religion. The ancients in their myths were also doing science – seeking to explain things thru observations and making sense of things. They saw the sun come up in the east, go across the sky, and set in the west. It moved. We move. In some ancient societies they thought it must have a spirit or animus (animating spirit) – a very logical conclusion. They also noted that birds flew across the sky, and that the sun brings warmth (as fires do), so it must be a fire bird (Chinese myth). Or a god or goddess.

What seems to have been different about the Judeo-Christian religion that eventually allowed and even brought into being science is (I’m thinking) the belief in a transcendent God, beyond the material world, who created the material world. We have a Bible to explain this (written by scribes inspired by God or taking down His dictation as best they could), but we also have creation, which is like another bible directly “written” by God. So it behooves us to study it and find out its (that is God’s) laws of nature; to understand creation, as well as appreciate and use it for our physical sustenance. And in a way scientists are its exigetors (like we have those who interpret the Bible). Science is a very noble profession. And science is correct to understand the workings of the material world without reference to God, since our modern (and Judeo-Christian) understanding is that the sun and other aspects of nature are not behaving due to them having spirits or being gods or goddesses, but according to laws of nature (ordained by God, the Creator).

I just wish people would not disrespect scientists so much and even threaten to kil their small children (as is happening to climate scientists). It is a really bad time to be a scientist with all the hatred and slander being lobbed against them. There’s been plenty of that even here at CAF, where supposedly we are mainly Catholic and more sincere about being religious and good people.
 
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