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sambos671
Guest
Please refer to my post above yours.We believe that the Saints in Heaven are alive. Asking them to pray for us is not different from asking friends to pray for us–except that they are in Heaven, of course.
No.
- Status
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kalt
Guest
"But then now we go full circle in terms of Jesus is the only one whom interceeds on our behalf.
Praying is a form of worship though. If you close your eyes and utter requests to people who have passed on, you are no longer talking with them, but entering a medium. In this sense you are requesting intersession to someone other then Christ whom is the ONLY way to the father.
MEDIATOR
A title of Christ as the one who reconciled God and the human race. It is based on the teaching of St. Paul, that “there is only one god, and there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus, who sacrificed Himself as a ransom for them all” (I Timothy 2:5-6). Christ is best qualified to be the mediator, i.e., one who brings estranged parties to agreement. As God, he was the one with whom the human race was to be reconciled; as a human being, he represented the ones who needed reconciliation. Christ continues his work of mediation, no longer to merit the grace of human forgiveness, but to communicate the grace already won on the Cross. Moreover, others than Christ may also be called mediators in a totally secondary sense, “in that they co-operate in our reconciliation; disposing and ministering to men’s union with God” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III, 48, 1). In fact every person, insofar as he or she co-operates with divine grace, is a kind of mediator between himself or herself and God. (Etym. Latin mediator, from mediare, to stand or divide in the middle.) "
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dyluck
Guest
So, Kalt, where are these person’s bodies?We believe that the Saints in Heaven are alive. Asking them to pray for us is not different from asking friends to pray for us–except that they are in Heaven, of course.
No.
I mean Jesus is the only one with a glorified body risen to heaven completely resurected.
The saints are dead in body still and alive in spirt whereas Christ is not dead in body or spirit at all.
When I asked about necromaning, these people believe also, the body is dead, but the spirit is alive; hence the ability to communicate in some way.
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kalt
Guest
**. THE COMMUNION OF THE CHURCH OF HEAVEN AND EARTH **
954 The three states of the Church. “When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is”’:492
All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways share in the same charity towards God and our neighbors, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God. All, indeed, who are of Christ and who have his Spirit form one Church and in Christ cleave together.493
955 "So it is that the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who sleep in the peace of Christ is in no way interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the constant faith of the Church, this union is reinforced by an exchange of spiritual goods."494
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."495
Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.496 I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.497
957 Communion with the saints. "It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"498:
We worship Christ as God’s Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord’s disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!499
958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and ‘because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins’ she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective. 959 In the one family of God. "For if we continue to love one another and to join in praising the Most Holy Trinity - all of us who are sons of God and form one family in Christ - we will be faithful to the deepest vocation of the Church."501
"**1469 **This sacrament reconciles us with the Church. Sin damages or even breaks fraternal communion. The sacrament of Penance repairs or restores it. In this sense it does not simply heal the one restored to ecclesial communion, but has also a revitalizing effect on the life of the Church which suffered from the sin of one of her members. Re-established or strengthened in the communion of saints, the sinner is made stronger by the exchange of spiritual goods among all the living members of the Body of Christ, whether still on pilgrimage or already in the heavenly homeland: "
We all know that these people are “dead” in a sense. But we also know that they have eternal life in Heaven. We’re not asking their bodies in the ground to pray for us, after all.
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sambos671
Guest
Fire! I love it. Let me look at this logically with you. Where in the bible does it say to pray to the saints? You’re inevitable answer is nowhere. Which is true. Why is it involved in the Liturgy (I’m speaking of Mary here)? Why are we commanded then to pray to the saints for things like indulgences? You say its the deposit. However, a study of the deposit we find that this particular aspect of the faith wasn’t passed down from the apostles. If it had been would it not have been mentioned in the earliest liturgical form we have in writing? Primarily the Didache? Its not. Not even a prayer to Mary! So it must be a later developement. Not from the initial deposit of Faith left by the Apostles!
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sambos671
Guest
Though the Catachism is expressed on this issue. The Holy Scriptures are not. And even in the quotes above its communion with the Mystical Body of Christ so in effect we are communing with the Church. Which I have no problem with. The problem is prayers of specificity with the Saints. Ie Saint Christopher. See so we are not praying to the Saint in specificity but communing with the Body of Christ both here and there. Yet the argument is still invalid because Moses did not differentiate between the church (alive) and those who are dead. And he wasn’t talking about the bodies as well. Ie remember not everyone values the Catachism as a catholic does and thus it hold no authority to them. Holy Scriptures is the only point between the two. So your argument must come from there.**. THE COMMUNION OF THE CHURCH OF HEAVEN AND EARTH **
954 The three states of the Church. “When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is”’:492
All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways share in the same charity towards God and our neighbors, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God. All, indeed, who are of Christ and who have his Spirit form one Church and in Christ cleave together.493
955 "So it is that the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who sleep in the peace of Christ is in no way interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the constant faith of the Church, this union is reinforced by an exchange of spiritual goods."494
[956](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/956.htm’)
Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.496 I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.497
[957](javascript
We worship Christ as God’s Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord’s disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!499
[958](javascript
We all know that these people are “dead” in a sense. But we also know that they have eternal life in Heaven. We’re not asking their bodies in the ground to pray for us, after all.
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ababbidg
Guest
One way thing I have found helpful in understanding this is a quote by JRR Tolkien. “We are not a body that has a spirit, we are a spirit that has a body.” This means the only real death would not be death of the body, but death of the spirit, which is separation from God (going to hell).So, Kalt, where are these person’s bodies?
I mean Jesus is the only one with a glorified body risen to heaven completely resurected.
The saints are dead in body still and alive in spirt whereas Christ is not dead in body or spirit at all.
When I asked about necromaning, these people believe also, the body is dead, but the spirit is alive; hence the ability to communicate in some way.
Also, communication with the dead, like necromancy, would imply that you want a response back from the dead person you are praying to. We expect no answers from saints when we petition them.
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kalt
Guest
I think most of us here think that you came here to tell not to ask.
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kalt
Guest
The Bible doesn’t say that it is the sole source. In fact it says that scriptures aren’t the sole sorce.
Still, there is biblical mention of praying for others (and for praying for the dead, too), but what use is directing you to this when you will just argue that we have misunderstood?
And since you ignore the Bible and insist that it is the only source, what use is there is pointing out the “what you have heard” part?
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sambos671
Guest
This last statement is not necissarily true though I wish it were.
Sounds like the praying person wants answers and for Christopher to directly teach and protect which is in the providence of God
I love the title of this prayer. Its unfailing. You do this right and bam! Your wish is granted. Either Anthony or God is a vending machine. Make sure you Say the Pater Noster in latin though!
Sounds like the expectation is to have him come down from heaven like Moses and Elijah on the Mt. Does this fall under your necromancy catagory?
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ababbidg
Guest
Revelations 8:3-4
3Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand.
Two comments: 1) Saints can be both people in heaven or on earth, this is known as the communion of saints. 2) Notice that the prayers are being given to God by an angel. Not by Jesus, not going directly to God but by an angel.
3Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand.
Two comments: 1) Saints can be both people in heaven or on earth, this is known as the communion of saints. 2) Notice that the prayers are being given to God by an angel. Not by Jesus, not going directly to God but by an angel.
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ababbidg
Guest
What isn’t true about my previous statement?
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sambos671
Guest
Good point.
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sambos671
Guest
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ababbidg
Guest
What I meant was we don’t expect that particular person to come down and give us an answer to a question or answer the prayer themselves. An example of when people actually do expect the dead to answer them directly is a seance. Apparently seances actually do work, which is a little freaky so I am going to stay as far away from them as I can.
We also don’t expect a miracle to be done by the saint himself. Just like someone performing a miracle while they are still on earth, it is not by their power, but by the power of God that they do this.
We also don’t expect a miracle to be done by the saint himself. Just like someone performing a miracle while they are still on earth, it is not by their power, but by the power of God that they do this.
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SonofMonica
Guest
The saints in Heaven are still part of the Body of Christ. Paul gives an excellent description of the Body of Christ in 1 Corinthians 12, and mentions that each believer is a member of it and has an indispensable function. Death does not rob a Christian of his membership in this Body, because we do not die, but instead have eternal life! Praise God! Also, the Scriptures do not tell us that our God-given ability to intercede for each other is diminished by death. On the contrary, James tells us that “the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” (James 5:16). Well, the saints in heaven are indeed among the most righteous men and woman (Hebrews 12:22-23) and their prayers are necessarily very powerful. I have had many prayers answered because of the intercession of saints in Heaven. Praise God from whom all blessings flow!
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promethius
Guest
Well, that’s the first time I’ve heard a protestant refer to Christ as a necromancer just to make his point. I’m curious what sect of protestantism you are, since I’ve never heard of the church of Christ the Necromancer…
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Bill_Pick
Guest
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God." - Romans 8:26-27
“And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.” - Revelations 5:8
“And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.” - Revelations 5:8
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
It isn’t idolatry; because it does not require us to turn way from Christ. The worship of false gods meant that the Israelites turned away from God - but the Saints are not alternative gods to God. Any more than hearing St. Paul preach was an alternative to hearing the Gospel of Christ. St. Paul was a means of making Christ known - the Saints are means of making Christ known. The Bible, a created thing of paper & ink, can be used by The Spirit of God to draw the reader to Christ; & the same Spirit is at work in His Saints to draw those who love them to Christ. The Bible is attractive not in itself, but because it is a means by which Christ works - the same is true of the Saints. And we do not adore the Saints as gods or God, but we venerate, love, make much of, honour & (seek to) imitate them as the dearly beloved children of God that they are. Any attractiveness they have, can come only from the God Who is the Only Author of all that is good in creatures. FWIW, the Saints are nothing & less than nothing in themselves, just like every other created thing - it is God Alone Who is “glorious in His Saints”. And it is Christ Who says He will abide in His disciples. Does He abandon them when they die ?
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
A mnemonic I learned when Protestant was:
- Adoration
- Confession
- Thanksgiving
- Supplication
- the class of prayers generally
- one type of prayer within that class
- Status