Isn't prayer to saints idolitary?

[dyluck]

I am not Catholic but do not necessarily see anything wrong with it. You ask living people to pray for you don’t you? Do you believe in soul extinction and that dead people no longer exist? Catholics and others believe in the Communion of the saints (we are all part of the Church). Also, look in scripture (Book of Rev) and see the prayers of the saints mentioned.

A misconception among Protestants is that when Catholics, Anglicans and Orthodox pray to Saints they are asking saints to heal them and so on. This may happen but it is an abuse. What they ask is that the saint pray for them over an issue. Remember from scripture that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. All the petitions I have looked at do just that.

Before you (or anyone else mentions the use of saint’s relics in healing) you may want to also look in the Book of Acts where it mentions articles being touched to the apostles and then healing people (relics).

I guess the Catholics are following biblical practices

In regards to Acts. It is not the artifact as being anything regarded.
Remember when the woman touched Jesus robe and was healed. Jesus said to her it was her faith that she is healed. People who do these healing services and people are getting healed has more to do with the faith of the person being healed then the one ministering healing.
I’m going to give an example how this can be bad. If a priest blesses a watch for the purposes of healing. People flock to this watch in order to be healed, where is their attention being drawn? to God or to a watch?
The power of the holy spirit was so strong in the apostles that even things they touched caused healing in those with faith that happend to touch them. But, it was never a practice of the apostles to bless/annoint an object for the purposes of healing. It was never a practice of Christ, never a practice of the apostles, and should never be a practice to this day.

 

[promethius]

In regards to Acts. It is not the artifact as being anything regarded.
Remember when the woman touched Jesus robe and was healed. Jesus said to her it was her faith that she is healed. People who do these healing services and people are getting healed has more to do with the faith of the person being healed then the one ministering healing.
I’m going to give an example how this can be bad. If a priest blesses a watch for the purposes of healing. People flock to this watch in order to be healed, where is their attention being drawn? to God or to a watch?

I don’t think you give enough credit to God or His creation (people) and Lourdes is rampant proof that you are wrong in this case.

If God sees fit to allow blessings or graces to flow into a person through an object, that is in His will. People who receive such blessings or graces know that it is the grace of God acting which provides their healing. At Lourdes, the worship focus is on God, not on the spring of water, and in fact if someone were to think of the object as providing healing of its own volition, that would most assuredly PREVENT any healing from happening. (that is where the credit to her faith that Jesus spoke of comes in)

The bottom line is: if God chooses to make certain objects blessed, then who are you to deny God that right?

The power of the holy spirit was so strong in the apostles that even things they touched caused healing in those with faith that happend to touch them.

or objects touched by them.

But, it was never a practice of the apostles to bless/annoint an object for the purposes of healing. It was never a practice of Christ, never a practice of the apostles, and should never be a practice to this day.

Proof of this statement? It’s historically patently false. For example, St Peter’s and St Paul’s remains were both zealously guarded from the day they died as “first class relics”. In other words, more than 1,900 years of history denies your alligation that relics were common practice of the church. Again, historical record shows that protestant denial of God’s chosen relics is the actual invention.

 

[SonofMonica]

God’s use of relics in healing goes back further than New Testament times…

“Now when Elisha had fallen sick with the illness of which he was to die, Joash king of Israel went down to him, and wept before him … So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet.” (2 Kings 13:14,20-21 RSV).

 

[sambos671]

God’s use of relics in healing goes back further than New Testament times…

“Now when Elisha had fallen sick with the illness of which he was to die, Joash king of Israel went down to him, and wept before him … So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet.” (2 Kings 13:14,20-21 RSV).

Thats a bad example. There is no indication that the soldier was purposely buried in Elisha’s tomb. It happened by accident. These guys didn’t want to get caught here was a grave they could quickly get this guy into. There is nothing here about relics. You really got to come up with something better than that.

 

[SonofMonica]

Thats a bad example. There is no indication that the soldier was purposely buried in Elisha’s tomb. It happened by accident. These guys didn’t want to get caught here was a grave they could quickly get this guy into. There is nothing here about relics. You really got to come up with something better than that.

What’s the difference whether it was an accident or purposeful? Bones are relics. Here, the relics healed him. What more are you looking for? What else do you think relics are? It’s not as if relics have to be proclaimed as such by the Church or as if you have to purposely go to them to get healed. If anything, the fact that it was an “accident” proves the point that relics work.

 

[sambos671]

What’s the difference whether it was an accident or purposeful? Bones are relics. Here, the relics healed him. What more are you looking for? What else do you think relics are? It’s not as if relics have to be proclaimed as such by the Church or as if you have to purposely go to them to get healed. If anything, the fact that it was an “accident” proves the point that relics work.

There is a big difference to burying some one in the same cemetary as a prophet and having a reliquary placed in a church by which a devotion to it would grant some sort of indulgence. Obviously the Holy Spirit was so stong in Elijah that this man was brought to life just touching his bones. But you don’t find the Jews building a reliquary in the temple and start a devotion to it. The Holy Spirit works. I trust him not a relic.

 

[SonofMonica]

There is a big difference to burying some one in the same cemetary as a prophet and having a reliquary placed in a church by which a devotion to it would grant some sort of indulgence. Obviously the Holy Spirit was so stong in Elijah that this man was brought to life just touching his bones. But you don’t find the Jews building a reliquary in the temple and start a devotion to it.

The Eucharist was celebrated at Christian graves from the earliest times. I would encourage you to do more research into the topic of relics. In any event, you’re taking issue with what people do with relics, which doesn’t really address the concept of whether relics work. If you question the Church’s ability to proclaim indulgences, that’s an entirely different topic altogether.

The Holy Spirit works. I trust him not a relic.

That’s the same argument that protestants use against our Sacraments. The Holy Spirit does work, and works through physical means. To be Catholic is to explicitly believe that. No one puts trust in a relic, itself. One puts trust that God can work though it, because he has done it in the past, and you’ve been shown that that is so, even from the Old Testament. But it doesn’t stop there:

Acts 19:11-12, “So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.”

 

[kalt]

Of all the things in that post you could have resonded to you can only come up with that? Which I’ve explained that a dead body is a dead body no matter what the condition of that persons spirit is. Moses did not have the after life worked out to the extent that we do. He meant do not speak with people who have died. The 2nd death is not the issue but the first.

Are the Saints in Heaven dead or alive?

 

[sambos671]

The Eucharist was celebrated at Christian graves from the earliest times. I would encourage you to do more research into the topic of relics. In any event, you’re taking issue with what people do with relics, which doesn’t really address the concept of whether relics work. If you question the Church’s ability to proclaim indulgences, that’s an entirely different topic altogether.

That’s the same argument that protestants use against our Sacraments. The Holy Spirit does work, and works through physical means. To be Catholic is to explicitly believe that. No one puts trust in a relic, itself. One puts trust that God can work though it, because he has done it in the past, and you’ve been shown that that is so, even from the Old Testament. But it doesn’t stop there:

Acts 19:11-12, “So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.”

Ok ok ok. I got it. I still have issues with the whole praying to Saint thing. Can’t expect me to change over night. Its not easy for me returning to the church.

 

[kalt]

Thats a bad example. There is no indication that the soldier was purposely buried in Elisha’s tomb. It happened by accident. These guys didn’t want to get caught here was a grave they could quickly get this guy into. There is nothing here about relics. You really got to come up with something better than that.

Why does it matter if was intentional or accidental?

Nevermind. I just read the posts that followed.

 

[sambos671]

Are the Saints in Heaven dead or alive?

I obviously said it not the 2nd death I’m at issue with but the first. But if you’re not going to address that aspect I’ll ask you this question. Apart from Mary have the Saints been resurrected yet? As in Carnis Resurectionem.

 

[sambos671]

Why does it matter if was intentional or accidental?

Nevermind. I just read the posts that followed.

Because.

 

[SonofMonica]

Ok ok ok. I got it. I still have issues with the whole praying to Saint thing. Can’t expect me to change over night. Its not easy for me returning to the church.

Hey I understand, my friend. I come from a protestant background, and I didn’t really “get” prayer to saints until I experienced what can only be described as a miraculous answer to prayer when I decided to ask for St. Monica’s intercession. It’s quite a personal story, but I’d be happy to send you a PM or e-mail about it. It’s just the first of the answered prayers I’ve experienced since then. I am praying for you, as I hope you’ll pray for me, as we both come Home.

 

[kalt]

I obviously said it not the 2nd death I’m at issue with but the first. But if you’re not going to address that aspect I’ll ask you this question. Apart from Mary have the Saints been resurrected yet? As in Carnis Resurectionem.

Don’t forget Elijah and Enoch.

What difference does this make? Are you saying that you believe that the saints, who are alive in Heaven, can’t intercede on our behalf because the body is in the ground?

 

[sambos671]

Don’t forget Elijah and Enoch.

What difference does this make? Are you saying that you believe that the saints, who are alive in Heaven, can’t intercede on our behalf because the body is in the ground?

Its not what I’m saying at all. What I am saying is that from Moses perspective a dead body is a dead body. The Spiritual state wasn’t considered when he wrote the law or there would be an exclussion for it. Ie. If they were a believer and in heaven you can ask them to intercede. But you don’t have that you have just consulting the dead is forbiden. Your argument would hold water if all the Saints were resurrected. Then there wouldn’t be a dead body. Note neither Enoch or Elijah died.

 

[sambos671]

Hey I understand, my friend. I come from a protestant background, and I didn’t really “get” prayer to saints until I experienced what can only be described as a miraculous answer to prayer when I decided to ask for St. Monica’s intercession. It’s quite a personal story, but I’d be happy to send you a PM or e-mail about it. It’s just the first of the answered prayers I’ve experienced since then. I am praying for you, as I hope you’ll pray for me, as we both come Home.

I would be glad to hear it and don’t worry I wouldn’t argue about it or demean your experience.

 

[kalt]

Its not what I’m saying at all. What I am saying is that from Moses perspective a dead body is a dead body. The Spiritual state wasn’t considered when he wrote the law or there would be an exclussion for it. Ie. If they were a believer and in heaven you can ask them to intercede. But you don’t have that you have just consulting the dead is forbiden. Your argument would hold water if all the Saints were resurrected. Then there wouldn’t be a dead body. Note neither Enoch or Elijah died.

So, again, are the Saints in Heaven alive or dead? You keep talking about covorting with the dead. Do you consider the saints in Heaven dead or alive?

You say that you are Catholic, so I’m posting this from the CCC.

"[958](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/958.htm’) Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and ‘because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins’ she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective. "

That their bodies are in the ground is irrelevant to the question of intercessory prayer. This isn’t just the opinion of a few posters on this forum, it is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[sambos671]

So, again, are the Saints in Heaven alive or dead? You keep talking about covorting with the dead. Do you consider the saints in Heaven dead or alive?

You say that you are Catholic, so I’m posting this from the CCC.

"[958](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/958.htm’) Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and ‘because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins’ she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective. "

That their bodies are in the ground is irrelevant to the question of intercessory prayer. This isn’t just the opinion of a few posters on this forum, it is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Alright lets clear things up a little bit. There are two deaths. A physical one and a spiritual one. Moses isn’t regarding the second one but the first. Have all the saints that are currently in heaven died the first death? No there Elijah and Enoch but the rest have. So the fact that they are alive and waiting the resurrection has no effect on their state with the first death. got it?

 

[sambos671]

Also note I don’t have a problem with intecessory prayer what I have a problem with is the prayers I quoted

**Unfailing Prayer **to
Saint Anthony
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints.

O Holy St. Anthony, gentlest of Saints, your love for God
and Charity for His creatures made you worthy, when on
earth, to possess miraculous powers. Miracles waited on
your word, which you were ever ready to speak for those in
trouble or anxiety. Encouraged by this thought, I implore
of you **to obtain **for me. The answer to my prayer
may require a miracle. Even so, you are the saint of
Miracles.

O gentle and loving St. Anthony, whose heart was ever full
of human sympathy, whisper my petition into the ears of the
Sweet Infant Jesus, who loved to be folded in your arms, and
the gratitude of my heart will ever be yours.

Amen. (Say 13 Paters, Aves, and Glorias)

Note only is the prayer unfailing but the saint is to obtain by his own ability. Doesn’t fit in with that quote from the CCC.

 

[SonofMonica]

Also note I don’t have a problem with intecessory prayer what I have a problem with is the prayers I quoted

Note only is the prayer unfailing but the saint is to obtain by his own ability. Doesn’t fit in with that quote from the CCC.

When I read that prayer, I see a praising of God (first line), then an explanation to the saint of why you are asking him specifically for help (because he worked miracles while alive, etc.) and then you’re asking him to pray to God for you (whisper into ear of Jesus).

I don’t see a problem with the “obtain” language if the method of “obtaining” it is through prayer to Jesus (as the last part clearly indicates as the method). But I agree that if the intent were to have to saint perform a miracle himself, that’s not good. But I don’t read that here.