Isn't the eternal act of God necessary?

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blase6

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If we examine what we are told about God, or perceive through reason:
  1. The nature of God is to be infinitely loving.
  2. Infinite love can only be recognized in infinitely good creation. Infinite love would require that the best possible created world would exist.
  3. Therefore God is bound to create the world by his infinitely loving nature.
  4. Creation in its current state exists necessarily.
This of course creates problems with the teaching that God has free will, and the problem of evil. Clearly the world is imperfect. But maybe that is the best possible world for God to create. Would that mean that God is imperfect?
 
blase6 said:
If we examine what we are told about God, or perceive through reason:
  1. The nature of God is to be infinitely loving.
  2. Infinite love can only be recognized in infinitely good creation. Infinite love would require that the best possible created world would exist.
  3. Therefore God is bound to create the world by his infinitely loving nature.
  4. Creation in its current state exists necessarily.
This of course creates problems with the teaching that God has free will, and the problem of evil. Clearly the world is imperfect. But maybe that is the best possible world for God to create. Would that mean that God is imperfect?
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How did the world become imperfect? I say that is man’s fault, not God’s. Therefore your conclusion is invalid and untrue.
 
davidv said:
How did the world become imperfect? I say that is man’s fault, not God’s. Therefore your conclusion is invalid and untrue.
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What people call “Natural Evil” has always existed. Animals have always consumed other animals long before humans existed. Nature is red in tooth and claw and has nothing to do with original sin.
 
davidv said:
How did the world become imperfect? I say that is man’s fault, not God’s. Therefore your conclusion is invalid and untrue.
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But God can create a world where it was impossible for evil to exist. Therefore, if the best possible world must exist, then somehow, a world without evil is not the best world.
 
blase6 said:
But God can create a world where it was impossible for evil to exist.
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Can he? How so? A world without the possibility or capacity for moral evil is not a world where real human beings exist.
 
ChainBreaker said:
Can he? How so? A world without the possibility or capacity for moral evil is not a world where real human beings exist.
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God could have created persons without free will, who would simply consciously perceive and accept God without needing a choice. Unless you believe that a person necessarily has freedom.
 
blase6 said:
God could have created persons without free will, who would simply consciously perceive and accept God without needing a choice. Unless you believe that a person necessarily has freedom.
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Would a person without free will be able to love as God loves? If so, how?
 
davidv said:
Would a person without free will be able to love as God loves? If so, how?
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If God does not have free will, as my argument implies, then a created person without free will can love him as God loves that person.
 
blase6 said:
If God does not have free will, as my argument implies, then a created person without free will can love him as God loves that person.
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Why did you add new conditions to your position? What does God’s free will have to do with my question?

Nor does the answer above answer the how question? How can a person without free will love as God loves?
 
blase6 said:
God could have created persons without free will, who would simply consciously perceive and accept God without needing a choice. Unless you believe that a person necessarily has freedom.
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There is no accepting anything without freewill; you just are what you are. I suppose God could create something akin to a robot.

But you must understand that freewill in the human sense of the term only exists because love by it’s very nature does not force anyone to recognize it’s value or live by its standards; Love as expressed by God is not fascist. Freewill is something that necessarily exists in persons because love is something that by definition has to be chosen when it comes to genuine personal relationships as opposed to force. But moral freewill in itself is not ontologically perfect in and of itself. Perfect ontological Love is true freedom and as such is freedom from imperfection. God does not have human freewill in the moral sense of the term but rather God is free from the possibility of evil. God is love.

Human freewill is a necessary limitation or imperfection in a contingent person.
 
davidv said:
Why did you add new conditions to your position? What does God’s free will have to do with my question?

I did not add new conditions. My argument states that God’s eternal act is necessary. As in, not freely chosen.

Nor does the answer above answer the how question? How can a person without free will love as God loves?

If God does not have free will, and a created person does not have free will, are they not at the same level in that regard?
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blase6 said:
I did not add new conditions. My argument states that God’s eternal act is necessary. As in, not freely chosen.
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So far this is an unsupported claim and is contrary to the Church’s teaching on the nature of God.
If God does not have free will, and a created person does not have free will, are they not at the same level in that regard?
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If God has free will, then does the created person have it?
 
davidv said:
So far this is an unsupported claim and is contrary to the Church’s teaching on the nature of God.
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God freely creates, but metaphysically speaking i don’t think human freewill is the same thing as God’s freedom as that would imply that there is unrealized potency in God. Thus i don’t think it is automatically heretical to attribute some sense of necessity insofar as Gods actions are concerned. It would be false to say that God is forced to create according to some necessity outside of his power or will. However Love by its very nature is necessarily giving, is sharing, is creative, and is at the same time absolutely free in doing so for there is nothing outside of the power of love.
 
davidv said:
So far this is an unsupported claim and is contrary to the Church’s teaching on the nature of God.

If God has free will, then does the created person have it?

Actually, I am still torn on this. Even assuming that God has free will, can he create another free will that is not bound by either determinism or indeterminism?
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If I were a Catholic, I would have no choice but to agree, but I would never use this as an apologetic.
I would never survive the cross examination here if I did not simply agree.
Just agree already.
IMHO, you must define him first. Then we can go into if his actions were communicated, and if so to who and at what time and place. Did he openly play favorites?
So many questions.
 
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