Isopsephy, Gematria, and numerology

[Michael1801]

In Greek, the letters of the alphabet have numerical value, and so do words, and names, and sentences. The same is true in Hebrew.

It’s fascinating to me that the Roman Emperor Nero killed his own mother, and the numerical value of his name in Greek is equal to that of the sentence–“he killed his own mother” (see the Wikipedia article on Isopsephy.)

The Greek alphabet, and number system was in use before there was a Roman Empire, and this strange fact of history would support the Catholic belief in a divine being with absolute foreknowledge.

But would this mean that there’s a hidden message in every word and name?

Are there no coincidences?

And does the word “coincidence” have any meaning in a universe governed by an all+knowig divine being with absolute foreknowledge?

Believers in God use the word “coincidence,” but do we misuse it?

Is there room for coincidence in a universe created and sustained by God?

What does the church teach?

And did Aquinas have anything to say about it?

 

[ColoradoCatholic]

I don’t know, but I would just say that things only seem a coincidence because we are beings with a vastly incomplete knowledge of just about everything lol. We do have free will, but everything interacts with everything else. I am of the belief that all these things will be revealed to us at the end of time. To God, of course there are no coincidences…he knows all things, and see how they have led to his ultimately good plan of salvation.

 

[Michael1801]

Hello, and thank you

But if there are no coincidences, I have a problem understanding certain things.

Someone in my home church has a licence plate that ends in a number many people associate with evil–is that license plate meant to tell someone something?

If there are no coincidences, does every number we see mean something?

I would have tried to hold onto the house I shared with my father before he died, if I hadn’t received a fortune cookie that said something like “to have what you cannot lose, you must give up what you can lose.”

It seemed to me that even if I tried to hold onto the house, I could lose it, and what I really wanted wasn’t here on Earth, so I let it go.

Was that fortune cookie meant to tell me I had to give up the house?

If there are no coincidences, is every fortune cookie a message from God?

Are there no coincidences?

And if there are, how can there be when God is on His throne, and in control, and foresees everything?

That’s what I don’t understand.

Can anyone help?

 

[ColoradoCatholic]

No but I would argue that the license plate has done a couple things: made you ask about it, and maybe get some insight into this question etc.

But no, your neighbor received that license plate simply because that was the next license plate to be given out, and yet it has urged you to ask a question…

Similarly, the fortune cookies don’t have any meaning other than what they mean to the people that read them etc. Maybe it caused you to think about holding onto the house. Maybe it led you to ask about them and find out that not every number/combination/ pattern that you see is intrinsically important. MAYBE it is meant to tell you something. But that’s beyond our ability to understand.

That doesn’t mean that there aren’t things that are there that are important for you to experience.

 

[JanR]

I recall one of our parishioners saying that coincidence is God acting anonymously.

 

[Crusader13]

It’s difficult to say with certainty that every perceived coincidence is a message from God. This can lead to an over emphasis on finding God’s message in everything and every religious and non religious symbol. Which is not what we are told to do.

I honestly believe that God does speak to us and there are signs He places in our view, but too often we choose to ignore them.

I think we can distort the message when we begin trying to use things like, numerology, as some sort of biblical code to look for Gods “signs” in our daily lives, while never bothering to even attend Mass or read scripture. Or believing that fortune cookies and horoscopes are simply other methods that God uses to “get our attention”.

 

[Michael1801]

Colorado Catholic:
You said “…no, your neighbor received that license plate simply because that was the next license plate to be given out,” but you also said (in a previous post) that things only “seem” to be coincidences.

If God is all knowing, and has absolute foreknowledge (as we believe), doesn’t it follow that he willed my parishioner to receive that license plate?

If she chose it herself, I think everyone here would say “no,” because we believe creatures have free will–but I’m sure she didn’t chose it herself.

And I didn’t chose my social security number (has three six’s in it) either.

If things only appear to be coincidences, is God telling us that we’re both doomed?

Or is He warning others to stay away from us?

Does it have to be some kind of message, for someone?

I thank you for your replies, but I still don’t understand something here.

Does the word “coincidence” have any meaning if you believe in God–and if it does, what would be a meaningful definition for us?

(And if it doesn’t, and things only “appear” to be coincidences, what exactly does that mean?)

Crusader 13:
Are you saying that we should view fortune cookies and horoscopes as simply other methods that God uses to “get our attention," or that we distort things when we view them that way?

And what if you avoid fortune cookies and horoscopes, and you still notice these “coincidences”?

Are they then “meant to tell you something”?

And btw, if you Google the key words “Providence” and “coincidence” (which I’ve done, more than once) all the results seem to be from believers who don’t believe there are any coincidences (which is one reason I came here.)

 

[EndTimes]

But would this mean that there’s a hidden message in every word and name?

No. The main number/name given to us to watch out for is 666

1. Then I saw another beast, which came up out of the earth; it had two horns like a lamb’s, but spoke like a dragon. 12It wielded all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship this first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed. 13It worked great miracles, even making fire come down from heaven to earth before men’s eyes. 14By the miracles it was allowed to perform in the presence of the beast it deluded the inhabitants of the earth, and made them erect an image in honour of the beast that had been wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15It was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that it could speak, and could cause all who would not worship the image to be put to death.

Moreover, it caused everyone, great and small, rich and poor, slave and free, to be branded with a mark on his right hand or forehead, and no one was allowed to buy or sell unless he bore this beast’s mark, either name or number.

Here is the is key; and anyone who has intelligence may work out the number of the beast.

The number represents a man’s name,
and the numerical value of its letters is six hundred and sixty-six.

 

[Michael1801]

So are all the other occurrences of 666 a message related to this end time manifestation of evil, or are they “coincidence”?

And, how would you define “coincidence”?

(Or do you believe there is no such thing?)

 

[EndTimes]

So are all the other occurrences of 666 a warning about this beast, or “coincidence”?

And, how would you define “coincidence”?

(Or do you believe there is no such thing?)

Tell me more about all the occurrences of 666?

You brought us “coincidence” - What does that mean?

 

[Michael1801]

As I said in the OP, I don’t know if the word “coincidence” has any meaning for us.

Trying to sort that out is why I started this thread.

And when I said “all the other occurrences of 666,” I wasn’t just talking about any that I’ve seen.

I’m talking about all occurrences of the number.

Are they all a coded message of some kind (like the name of the beast), or are some of them coincidences?

And if you believe in an all-knowing Supreme Being (who has foreknowledge of future events, as I assume most of us do), do you believe anything is a coincidence?

And what does the word “coincidence” mean to you?

And to answer your question, here’s another occurrence of the number 666 that I noticed (on the license plate of a car I was driving behind, at a time when I was thinking about hiring a lawyer.)

The license plate read lega-666.

I reconsidered hiring that lawyer because lega could be short for legal.

But I also googled lega, and found that it’s the name of a right wing anti-imigration party in Italy, who’s leader (Matteo Salvini) was recently accused of being the Antichrist by an Italian priest.

Was that license plate a warning about hiring a lawyer, a warning about an Italian politician named Salvini, a warning about right wing politics in my own country (where the left seems much more anti-church), or a coincidence?

And, again–how could it be “just a coincidence” (and mean nothing) when God would have had to have known that I would be driving on that road, behind that other driver (and that he would have that license plate) before either of us were born?

And does the word “coincidence” even mean anything?

I’d like to know what you and others think about that.

Thank you.

 

[Michael1801]

Here’s an occurance of the number 666 I’d forgotten about, but it’s one reason I never saw Mel Gibson’s “The Passion of Christ.”

When it was first running, the computer at a multiplex theater in Rome Georgia assigned tickets to that particular movie the number 666, and the theater had to issue one patron (who wanted to see the movie) a movie pass, because she wouldn’t take the ticket.

I heard some people, who saw that film, were deeply moved by it.

I heard others were weirded out by a female devil and a satanic infant who were mocking Jesus during some of the scenes, but I never saw the film myself because I read about that.

Assuming for the moment that it wasn’t the devil trying to keep people from seeing the movie, would a “coincidence” like that have to be some kind of message from God?

If we say that things only appear to be coincidences, or that “coincidence” is just God acting anonymously (as some here have said), isn’t that what we’re saying?

And if we say it was just a coincidence, what do we mean?

Didn’t God have to know that that computer would assign that number to those tickets before Mel Gibson ever thought of making the movie?

And wouldn’t He know there’d be people who took it as some kind of message?

So does it necessarily follow that He intended it as a message?

Is that the only possible conclusion for someone who believes in a God who sees the future, and who knows all, or am I overlooking something?

Is there still such a thing as coincidence, and can anyone help me define it?

I’m not trying to say anything here.

I’m just asking a question.

And trying to understand something I don’t understand.

And I’m very interested in anything any of you have to say.

Thank you.

 

[MrZoom]

When it was first running, the computer at a multiplex theater in Rome Georgia assigned tickets to that particular movie the number 666, and the theater had to issue one patron (who wanted to see the movie) a movie pass, because she wouldn’t take the ticket.

That person was being ridiculously superstitious about the number 666. It’s the number of a man, not the number of a movie. And I’m pretty sure this person wasn’t forced to worship the image of the beast to receive her ticket.

I presume this person also sells her car before it hits 66,600 miles …

 

[EndTimes]

And trying to understand something I don’t understand.

And I’m very interested in anything any of you have to say.

You’d have more than enough on your plate by simply sticking to this - if it’s of any interest to you .

PS - Cease any superstition…

The main and only number/name given to us to watch out for is 666

1. Then I saw another beast, which came up out of the earth; it had two horns like a lamb’s, but spoke like a dragon. It wielded all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship this first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed. It worked great miracles, even making fire come down from heaven to earth before men’s eyes. By the miracles it was allowed to perform in the presence of the beast it deluded the inhabitants of the earth, and made them erect an image in honour of the beast that had been wounded by the sword and yet lived. It was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that it could speak, and could cause all who would not worship the image to be put to death.

Moreover, it caused everyone, great and small, rich and poor, slave and free, to be branded with a mark on his right hand or forehead, and no one was allowed to buy or sell unless he bore this beast’s mark, either name or number.

Here is the is key; and anyone who has intelligence may work out the number of the beast.

The number represents a man’s name,
and the numerical value of its letters is six hundred and sixty-six.

 

[ColoradoCatholic]

You said “…no, your neighbor received that license plate simply because that was the next license plate to be given out,” but you also said (in a previous post) that things only “seem” to be coincidences.

right, what I meant was they only “seem” to be coincidences because you don’t know everything. Then I provided the very possible circumstance of being the guy to get a license plate after 665 if you will. You are just the next customer and that’s not a coincidence its just the next number in the chain.

If things only appear to be coincidences, is God telling us that we’re both doomed?

I think that you are choosing to read into these numbers far more than they are actually worth.

Does the word “coincidence” have any meaning if you believe in God–and if it does, what would be a meaningful definition for us?

(And if it doesn’t, and things only “appear” to be coincidences, what exactly does that mean?)

As I stated previously, you are not omniscient, so you cannot see the events that led for example to you getting at triple 6 in your SSN. But it just so happens that you were the next baby to be born that day, who was given the next number. That certainly doesn’t mean you are doomed/ people should avoid you. I would say you have free will, so you certainly have a choice to completely prove that wrong. I would say that Omniscience is not a replacement for “fate” because I honestly don’t believe in a fate. God’s Omniscience doesn’t mean everything is predetermined, it means hes much better at seeing things than you are.

I often use this example: There is a man standing on the sidewalk who is a car salesman. He sees two cars that are about to hit each other (which he previously sold to the two drivers a week before). Just because he sold them the cars doesn’t mean he is responsible for the wreck. The drivers are responsible for the wreck. Yet he still sees the wreck about to happen.

This may be a bad example, idk let me know haha, but you see how it can be applied to our conversation…just because God created you and put you in this specific moment in which he saw that you would receive a 666 in your social security doesn’t mean that he created you to either be evil or otherwise. He always created you to be good, but its up to you to choose how you live. Quite frankly, the SSN is honestly quite unimportant in terms of existential meaning in your life.

 

[Michael1801]

Michael1801:

When it was first running, the computer at a multiplex theater in Rome Georgia assigned tickets to that particular movie the number 666, and the theater had to issue one patron (who wanted to see the movie) a movie pass, because she wouldn’t take the ticket.

That person was being ridiculously superstitious about the number 666. It’s the number of a man, not the number of a movie. And I’m pretty sure this person wasn’t forced to worship the image of the beast to receive her ticket.

I presume this person also sells her car before it hits 66,600 miles …

I take you to be saying that that movie patron was being superstitious because she took a mere coincidence to be something ominous–but please do me a favor and define the terms superstitious and coincidence.

Is a coincidence something that just occurs at random, with no design or purpose?

Is that what those numbers on those tickets were?

And was the lady being superstitious because she took those numbers to possibly have some meaning?

How could those numbers be assigned by that computer willed it (or at least foresaw and allowed it)?

And if God knew it would be taken as some kind of message, why would He will or allow it unless it was intended as some kind of message?

It occurred in a theater in Rome Georgia, and Protestants could easily take it as a warning against Rome (and some future Pope, who could literally fource people to worship an image, and receive a mark.)

I believe Mel Gibson (or his father) is a sedevacantist, and the scenes with the demonic child were based on some unauthorized visions.

And a traditional Catholic could take the 666 and “Rome” to be a warning about sedevacantism (and some future antipope driving the real Pope into exile, and fourcing people to worship an image, etc.)

And a Sedevacantist could take it in much the same way some Protestants did (as a warning against Rome, and the Pope sitting there, or a future Pope.)

There are many ways this odd “coincidence” could be taken to mean “something.”

What I’m asking is whether there’s any way we (as Theists) can take such things to mean nothing?

Can the word “coincidence” have any meaningful definition for us?

And if you think it does, could you please define it for me.

Thank you.

 

[Michael1801]

… what I meant was they only “seem” to be coincidences because you don’t know everything. Then I provided the very possible circumstance of being the guy to get a license plate after 665 if you will. You are just the next customer and that’s not a coincidence its just the next number in the chain.

Thank you.

You’re comments here are interesting.

But when you say “it’s just the next number in the chain,” aren’t you saying it’s just a coincidence?

I think what you’re saying is that God didn’t design things so you’d be next in line and receive that license plate, and He didn’t intend it to mean anything, but you also say it’s not a coincidence, and that’s where you lose me.

And what about the odd circumstance of Nero killing his own mother–and his name having the same numerical value (in Greek, which used letters for.numbers before he was born) as “he killed his own mother”?

Did God design that?

And did He intend us to see notice it?

It seems to me that He did.

And given what we believe about God and His knowledge (and foreknowledge) I don’t see how it could be an accident.

Is everything like that–or are some things coincidences?

And does “coincidence” mean “accident,” or is there some other way to define the term that might be helpful here.

 

[ColoradoCatholic]

But when you say “it’s just the next number in the chain,” aren’t you saying it’s just a coincidence?

I think we have different definitions of coincidence, by coincidence do you mean absolutely meaningless? As you say an accident…so no apparent meaning in and of itself? I’m sensing we are speaking past each other.

 

[Michael1801]

I think we have different definitions of coincidence, by coincidence do you mean absolutely meaningless? As you say an accident…so no apparent meaning in and of itself? I’m sensing we are speaking past each other.

I don’t know.

I’m trying to define the word myself.

But when it comes to my social, the license plates, and the numbers on those movie tickets–aren’t you saying they’re absolutely meaningless?

If you would call them coincidences, please define the term.

And if you prefer a different term, please tell me what you would call them (and define that term for me.)

I would hesitate to use the term “accident,” but that is kinda what I think of when I hear the word “coincidence,” and that’s why I don’t know what to call these things.

Does “coincidence” mean “accident,” and is there therefore no such thing as “just a coincidence”–or is there some other way to define “coincidence” (or some better word to use)?

Please reply.

And thank you for your replies.

 

[ColoradoCatholic]

Yes I am saying they are absolutely meaningless.

Many people say they see numbers and patterns more often than not, I believe some of these people may think that it is more than a coincidence (IE more than meaningless, or they believe they see these things for some reason). Personally I think that because these sequences of numbers have become popularized that people have given them more meaning than they warrant, OR they are really good at recognizing patterns (which the Human Race in particular is very very good at, I think it helps us deal with and solve a lot of problems using pattern recognition).

Not ruling out that God doesn’t put them there for a specific purpose but it’s beyond our ability to comprehend because I don’t go around looking for “666” and avoiding whatever its attached to, that would drive me nuts haha!

Maybe it would be better if I say that I don’t think there are coincidences because I believe everything has a CAUSE (instead of a purpose) such as the SSN when your a baby example. There is a logical procession of things…I think some events may be put there by God, but its pretty hard to tell unless your analyzing something that’s already happened.

hmmm on further reflection…maybe I am contradicting myself…gimme a second.