Isopsephy, Gematria, and numerology

[Michael1801]

Yes I am saying they are absolutely meaningless.

Many people say they see numbers and patterns more often than not, I believe some of these people may think that it is more than a coincidence (IE more than meaningless, or they believe they see these things for some reason). Personally I think that because these sequences of numbers have become popularized that people have given them more meaning than they warrant, OR they are really good at recognizing patterns (which the Human Race in particular is very very good at, I think it helps us deal with and solve a lot of problems using pattern recognition).

Not ruling out that God doesn’t put them there for a specific purpose but it’s beyond our ability to comprehend because I don’t go around looking for “666” and avoiding whatever its attached to, that would drive me nuts haha!

Maybe it would be better if I say that I don’t think there are coincidences because I believe everything has a CAUSE (instead of a purpose) such as the SSN when your a baby example. There is a logical procession of things…I think some events may be put there by God, but its pretty hard to tell unless your analyzing something that’s already happened.

I think what you’re saying is that you anything is entirely accidental, because you believe everything has a cause, and what you just said about a logical procession of things could be helpful.

I have to think about that–and I’d welcome any more thoughts you have.

As to “coincidences,” I’ve been looking at definitions of the word, and I found this one interesting.

“Correspondence in nature or in time of occurrence.”

I don’t see anything in this definition that implies accident, and maybe a Theist can believe in “coincidence” in that sense?

 

[ColoradoCatholic]

Ok, now I’m starting to backtrack after thinking about what you said.

So yes, I think there are no coincidences, I stand by this. But I have to clarify that because I believe there is a logical sequence to things happening then it would follow that everything actually does matter. But the degree it matters is kinda subjective I guess.

If you take 1 second to notice that someone in the parking lot had 666 on their license plate and then start your hike, and then 3 hours later you step on a particular rock that was moved by a previous hiker that starts an avalanche that destroys the town…does the meaningless 666 on the license plate actually matter?

I honestly don’t know. Depends on if taking 1 second to notice the license plate really did have an effect on you kicking the rock…etc. etc. etc.

or was it just a coincidence? lol…I really don’t think it can be a coincidence because even though it’s not technically your fault the events played out speak for themselves. The real wrench in the situation is free will.

If I chose to get in a fight with my brother, who then storms out of the house early and goes on a hike before the second hiker (you) who moves that pebble in just the right place…is my sin of fighting with him the true cause of the avalanche? If I chose to be like Christ would I have avoided this situation?

who knows?..that’s for Judgement Day.

 

[Michael1801]

I don’t follow you at all.

Could you please define what you mean by “coincidence” when you say that you don’t believe that there are any?

And in your hypothetical example, what would freewill have to do with the number “666” appearing on a licence plate in that parking lot?

Unless the owner of that car requested a plate with that number, it would seem to me that human freewill had nothing to do with it being there.

But if God possess the attributes of omnescience, omnipotence, and foreknowledge, it would seem that His will would have everything to do with it being there.

So why would it be there?

If it wasn’t a “coincidence” (and by that, mean something that just happened to coincide with my being in that parking lot at that time, without being intended as message to me), are you saying it was intended as a message to me?

If not, how was it not a coincidence?

Was I supposed to notice it?

Was it intended to delay the start of my hike, so that I would move that pebble and start an avalanche?

And if it wasn’t intended to be a message, and I wasn’t intended to notice it, and it wasn’t meant to cause the avalanche, how was it not a coincidence (in some sense of the word)?

I don’t understand what you’re saying here.

And here are a couple of other oddities for your consideration.

On the day after a junior senator from Illinois named Barack Obama was elected president, the winning Illinois pick 3 state lottery number was 666.

And the name William Jefferson Clinton adds up to 666 in both Hebrew and Greek (even though the alphabets are different, and the numerical values assigned to the letters in their numbering systems are different.)

Now I don’t see how both Obama and Clinton could be the Antichrist, and neither of them can run for president again, so these appear to be coincidences–and that’s exactly what any atheist or agnostic would call them.

And it’s what I’d be inclined to call them if I felt comfortable using the word.

I’m just not sure what “coincidence” means if you believe in God.

And you’ve said you don’t believe there are any coincidences.

So what would you call these things?

 

[Inbonum]

But would this mean that there’s a hidden message in every word and name?

Have you ever heard Nomen est omen? It means The name is sign. There is alot of names which have some meaning. Bible is full of names with meaning.
I cannot say the same for words in general. Etimology explains origin of words and history of their meanings but some words don’t have their previous meanings.
Etimology is very interesting!

Numerology is any belief in the divine or mystical relationship between a number and one or more coinciding events
Catholic Church rejects numerology as form of divination and occult activity.

Here are some answers to your questions
What does Church teach about numerology, gemantria etc.

Continuing in next post…

 

[Inbonum]

And does the word “coincidence” have any meaning in a universe governed by an all+knowig divine being with absolute foreknowledge?
Believers in God use the word “coincidence,” but do we misuse it?
Is there room for coincidence in a universe created and sustained by God?
What does the church teach?

I don’t believe in coincidences and saw 100 times in my life that there is no coincidences. Everything happens for a reason BUT we have a free will. We don’t have destiny written somewhere like we would be predestined to do something or not, something to happen to us without our choice or not to happen. We aren’t puppets.
God is always involved in our life, He is personal and close God but He doesn’t decide on anything instead of us.
Catechism of Catholic Church on Man’s freedom

God did not create anything by coincidence nor does He do anything by coincidence. He is perfect and makes everything perfect out of His love.
Catechism on God Creator

296 We believe that God needs no pre-existent thing or any help in order to create, nor is creation any sort of necessary emanation from the divine substance.144 God creates freely “out of nothing”:145
If God had drawn the world from pre-existent matter, what would be so extraordinary in that? A human artisan makes from a given material whatever he wants, while God shows his power by starting from nothing to make all he wants.146

God creates an ordered and good world
299Because God creates through wisdom, his creation is ordered: "You have arranged all things by measure and number and weight."151 The universe, created in and by the eternal Word, the “image of the invisible God”, is destined for and addressed to man, himself created in the “image of God” and called to a personal relationship with God.152 Our human understanding, which shares in the light of the divine intellect, can understand what God tells us by means of his creation, though not without great effort and only in a spirit of humility and respect before the Creator and his work.153 Because creation comes forth from God’s goodness, it shares in that goodness - "And God saw that it was good. . . very good"154- for God willed creation as a gift addressed to man, an inheritance destined for and entrusted to him. On many occasions the Church has had to defend the goodness of creation, including that of the physical world.155

 

[Michael1801]

Hi Inbonum.

I followed your link, read that article, and followed the link they provided for further information.

This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)/Use of numbers in the Church:

“…there can be no doubt that influenced mainly by Biblical precepts, but also in part by the prevalence of this philosophy of numbers all around them, the Fathers down to the time of Bede and even later gave much attention to the sacredness and mystical significance not only of certain numerals in themselves but also of the numerical totals given by the constituent letters with which words were written.”

So when you say that you don’t believe in coincidences, does that mean you believe it’s no coincidence that the constituent letters of the name William Jefferson Clinton add up to 666 (in both Hebrew and Greek)?

Or that the constituent letters of Donald Trump’s name (in Hebrew) add up to 424 (the same as “Messiah, Son of David” in Hebrew)?

As Christians, we know that Mr. Trump isn’t the Messiah, or Son of David.

Those titles belong only to Christ.

But there’s an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi in Israel who’s saying that Mr. Trump is some kind of Messianic forerunner because of the Gematria of his name.

Is he supposed to get that message?

(And if that’s a misunderstanding, is God responsible for it?)

I’m sure Mr. Clinton and Mr. Trump have freewill, but I think we all believe that God knew the choices that they’d make (and that they’re making) before they were born.

So are these associations intended to tell us something about their characters?
Are we seeing messages from God here, or coincidences?

Are all associations intended to tell us something?

And if not messages, and not coincidences, what are they?

What do you call them?

And is every number I see supposed to mean something to me?

 

[Inbonum]

You are mixing numerology with use of numbers in Church and Bible in another way. Exactly what it says in article I posted you.

There is some confusion among the faithful between the kind of numerology used for divination purposes with the symbolic meaning that some of the early Church fathers gave not only to certain numbers in themselves, but also of the numerical totals given by the constituent letters with which words were written
Blog - Women of Grace - www.womenofgrace.com

So when you say that you don’t believe in coincidences, does that mean you believe it’s no coincidence that the constituent letters of the name William Jefferson Clinton add up to 666 (in both Hebrew and Greek)?

You are pulling things out of context.
I don’t believe that things which happen to us are just coincidences. I explained it in my posts above.
I don’t refer on those 666 theories which aren’t in coincidences category but in those conspiracy theories category. You can look on those numbers in many ways and use them in different ways. Based on your posts in this thread I think you are overly attached to this numerology thing. If you are looking for something to back up your story you will probably find it. I hoped to see here someone who is looking for answers but you just want your theories confirmed or whatever else.

And is every number I see supposed to mean something to me?

It depends in which way you want to look at them… There are mathematics meanings, numerology meanings, scientific, biblical.

 

[Michael1801]

Hi Inbonum,

Please don’t judge my motives.

You say that you don’t believe the things that happen to us are just coincidences, and that you explained that in your post, but your post didn’t explain what you mean by “coincidences,” and I don’t know what else to call the kind of things I mentioned unless they are coded messages.

Those are the only two alternatives I see in something like getting a movie ticket with the mark of the beast on it when you’re on line to see the passion of Christ at a movie theater in Rome Georgia.

That’s something that happened to multiple people in one day–did it mean nothing, was it just a coincidence (a meaningless coinciding of events), or was it what Karl Jung would call a symchronicity (a meaningful coinciding of events)?

I don’t see any other alternative, and it confuses me when you (and others) say you don’t believe there are coincidences, but you don’t believe these things are signs, or omens, or have any meaning either.

I’m not wedded to any conspiracy theories.

I don’t want to believe anything bad about anyone–least of all myself.

And I’ve seen things that I’d like to believe are coincidences.

But I also want to believe in God.

I’ve been trying to find a definition of coincidence that would explain some of the things I’ve mentioned, and that fits in with my concept of God, and I had hoped that someone here could help me think this through.

And I’d also like to request prayers.

I just turned 61 and there was no one left to say “happy birthday.”

Everyone who use to say that is gone now.

I’m the only one left, my faith is weak, some of the things I’ve seen trouble me, and I could use some prayers.

And some help thinking these things through.

 

[Inbonum]

Well you should give your definition since you are questioning things here.
You asked this in you first post:

And does the word “coincidence” have any meaning in a universe governed by an all+knowig divine being with absolute foreknowledge?

Is there room for coincidence in a universe created and sustained by God?

Since God knows everything, He is Omnipotent and Omnipresent then everything that happens is known to Him. To humans some things can seem like coincidence but God is above and out of time so He knows how, when and why something will happen, He knows how some event will affect someone else. I don’t believe in coincidences or coincident events because I know every goodness and grace comes from God and everything bad doesn’t come from God but He lets that to happen for higher good even if I don’t like it.

Example, I am driving a car and trying to find a parking place but there is no any, I start to pray for one and suddenly after another drive through street here is one which wasn’t there 2 mins ago. Is that coincidence? Maybe in eye of someone who cannot accept that God listens “small” prayers or in an eye of someone who doesn’t believe in God or who has picture of God who is somewhere far far away from us.
Someone else would say that thing happened to me is just good karma. So who is right?

Someone maybe believes that something is just a coincidence but I believe that everything have a reason, purpose and meaning (but not occult meaning in general sense). If something bad happens to me then I trust to God that He will make something great and good from that. Even from the worst scenarios God does great things if we let Him. It also depends on our perspective. If something good happens I say: Thank you Father!

I don’t like to interpret things sensationally.
Your example of mark of beast on tickets or simmilar to that is, I believe, just giving too much atttention to something that isn’t important. What is fruit of that?
To be clear I believe that Devil is trying to sabotage many things and I believe that he is spiritual creature and not just a metaphore but many times we blame Devil for something that is from us, humans. Maybe someone just wanted to make christians nervous or to play with their feelings.
I just wanted to point that I don’t have that kind of belief system anymore.

Whom to thank for “good symchronicity”? And how that happens out of nothing?
I don’t like him too much.

but you don’t believe these things are signs, or omens, or have any meaning either.

But signs of what?

I’ve been trying to find a definition of coincidence that would explain some of the things I’ve mentioned, and that fits in with my concept of God, and I had hoped that someone here could help me think this through.

Are you catholic?
I will add you to my prayers, don’t worry for that but you should also seek God. Ask Him to meet Him in truth. To meet Him in way it is possible for us humans to know Him.

 

[Michael1801]

Yes I’m Catholic, thank you for your prayers, and if you read the op, why would you ask me for my definition of coincidence when I already said that I don’t know how to define the word (or how to explain some things without it.)

The question I asked in the op was whether anyone could help me define the word coincidence in a way that would fit in with our belief in an omnescient God (and might help explain some things I didn’t understand.)

One possible definition of “coincidence” that occurred to me was “coinciding without any intended meaning.”

Might God have caused some things to coincide without intending them to have any particular meaning?

An example might be the Hebrew word meaning “I lie” (אכזב - kazab) adding up to 30, and Our Lord starting His public ministry when He was baptized at about 30 years of age.

As a Christian, I would tend to believe the coinciding of those two things weren’t intended to mean anything by Our omnescient God.

Another example might be “William Jefferson Clinton” adding up to 666.

Since he’s no longer president, and can’t run again, he seems unlikely to be the Antichrist.

And President Trump’s name (in Hebrew) adding up to the same number as “Messiah of the house of David” would seem an obvious example, as we know he’s not the Messiah.

But you seem to be saying that the word “coincidence” can have no meaning at all for those of us who believe in God, and that it can’t explain any of these things–right?

So they must all mean something, right?

Is that what you’re saying?

 

[Michael1801]

Here are some other things that might be “coincidences” (if a coincidence can be defined as a coinciding of two or more things without any intended meaning.)

Thomas Jefferson and John Adams both died on the same day.

The king George Washington fought during the revolutionary war was also named “George.”

In the American Civil War, the Vietnam War, and the Korean War, all three countries were divided between North and South (as opposed to East and West.)

These are coinciding things that would appear to carry no meaning.

Could there be other such things?

I mean things with no intended meaning that God still willed (or foresaw and allowed)?

Could “coincidence” be defined to mean such things without taking anything away from God’s omnescience?

And would there have to be such things in a universe of things?

I think there would, but I can’t explain why–can anyone help?