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XiWang717
Guest
Those who have already voted, I would be glad to know your reasons for voting thus.
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XiWang717
Guest
When I first began studying Christianity…yes, Israel was the Holy Land to me, and Jerusalem was the Holy City; I knew then that the Middle East was a turbulent region, but only very vaguely, and I had little opinion about modern Israel as it is. I do not know, truly, which side is truly right, though I admit I was formerly more sympathetic to the Israelis.
Yet I must say…in a way, I cannot articulate this clearly, but it does seem to me that Israel belongs more with the past than in the present. The perpetual warfare over something so holy to so many seems abominable to me; this era is no longer that of ancient Israel, and the Jews must realize this.
Those others who have already voted, I would be glad to know your reasons for voting thus. I am open to all your opinions.
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Semper_Zelare
Guest
Well, the two statements of yours I bolded, because obviously they’re contradictory. Clearly the case can be made, that if anywhere is living in an ancient time- it’s Israel, and particularly Jerusalem.
Jerusalem isn’t important for trade anymore, it has few natural resources. The city is economically irrelevant. The only reason it matters is because of its religious sites. You don’t go to Jerusalem to do business, you go there to pray, to find God, you go there for religion. So, that kind of necessitates that its relatively “stuck in the past”. It probably has pretty strict building codes about not making buildings higher than the religious sites.
Anyways, I firmly support Israel. There’s only one nation for the Jews in the entire world: Israel. There are 22 nations for the Moslems across North Africa and the Middle East, why do they need a 23rd? Most people in Jordan already consider themselves Palestinians, so why can’t the Palestinians just live in Jordan, a country with a Palestinian majority?
Because it’s about politics and religion. It’s not about peace. It’s about Islam triumphing over the Jews (and killing them all/ driving them into the sea… whatever). Israel is the most militarized country in the world, and it is so for a reason.
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PaulToJesus
Guest
I support not the Israelis against the Palestinians for they have already committed unbelievable genocides.
I do not support Palestinians for they do not want peace.
I supoort peace.
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katcecelia
Guest
Previously I was a zionist, until I recently read an article pointing out the problems with holding this view, not the least of which is that Christians are being persecuted in this area. (catholicknight.blogspot.com/2011/05/israeli-palestinian-conflict.html) I no longer know where I stand. I need to learn more.
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minkymurph
Guest
Sensitive topic.
I neither support nor do not support either side. The best solutions are one’s people themselves agree to, and that’s what I would like to see happening - the Palestinians and Israeli’s reaching one. Sadly I don’t see that happening in the near future.
In my part of the world whether you are pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian depends on your religion and politics. As far as I understand it, which is probably little more than Palestinians and Israeli’s know about the conflict in my country, the modern state of Israel was set up by the British and French. As such, Catholics/Nationalists here tend to be pro-Palestinian, as they see it as a similar situation to Ireland in that the British partitioned the Palestinians country to the Palestinians land just as they partitioned theirs. By the same token, Protestants are pro-Israel - because Catholics are pro-Palestinian, and some Protestants here believe they are descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel. No idea why.
That is also why some Protestants here believe Catholics should not rule Protestants, Protestants should rule, because Protestants are descendants of the ‘chosen people.’ Just Ulster Protestants of course, no one else. It’s amazing how many perceptions develop as a consequence of conflict in terms of who’s ‘right’ and who’s ‘wrong.’
I neither support nor do not support either side. The best solutions are one’s people themselves agree to, and that’s what I would like to see happening - the Palestinians and Israeli’s reaching one. Sadly I don’t see that happening in the near future.
In my part of the world whether you are pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian depends on your religion and politics. As far as I understand it, which is probably little more than Palestinians and Israeli’s know about the conflict in my country, the modern state of Israel was set up by the British and French. As such, Catholics/Nationalists here tend to be pro-Palestinian, as they see it as a similar situation to Ireland in that the British partitioned the Palestinians country to the Palestinians land just as they partitioned theirs. By the same token, Protestants are pro-Israel - because Catholics are pro-Palestinian, and some Protestants here believe they are descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel. No idea why.
That is also why some Protestants here believe Catholics should not rule Protestants, Protestants should rule, because Protestants are descendants of the ‘chosen people.’ Just Ulster Protestants of course, no one else. It’s amazing how many perceptions develop as a consequence of conflict in terms of who’s ‘right’ and who’s ‘wrong.’
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PaulToJesus
Guest
Just a thought.Sensitive topic.
I neither support nor do not support either side. The best solutions are one’s people themselves agree to, and that’s what I would like to see happening - the Palestinians and Israeli’s reaching one. Sadly I don’t see that happening in the near future.
In my part of the world whether you are pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian depends on your religion and politics. As far as I understand it, which is probably little more than Palestinians and Israeli’s know about the conflict in my country, the modern state of Israel was set up by the British and French. As such, Catholics/Nationalists here tend to be pro-Palestinian, as they see it as a similar situation to Ireland in that the British partitioned the Palestinians country to the Palestinians land just as they partitioned theirs. By the same token, Protestants are pro-Israel - because Catholics are pro-Palestinian, and some Protestants here believe they are descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel. No idea why.
That is also why some Protestants here believe Catholics should not rule Protestants, Protestants should rule, because Protestants are descendants of the ‘chosen people.’ Just Ulster Protestants of course, no one else. It’s amazing how many perceptions develop as a consequence of conflict in terms of who’s ‘right’ and who’s ‘wrong.’
Palestinians and Jews do not have the language of “forgiveness”
their language is the language of vengeance.
Eye for an eye turns everybody blind.
Jesus Christ is the solution after all…
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LEMAITRE
Guest
I am pro-Israel in that I believe it should be allowed to protect it’s citizens, its borders and has the right to exist. Does that make me a zionist?
I also believe that Palestinians are entitled to a homeland as well. Some argue that Israel is expanding it’s borders aggressively into and claiming Palestinian Territories. Israel argues it has a right to implement it’s policies regarding the security of it’s citizens. Unfortunately, arguing and warring seems to make up the majority of activity on both sides, briefly interrupted by promises of compromise and peace. It would be encouraging to see sustained peace talks where a tangible and effective agreement is actually implemented.
The real question is ‘Do both sides really want PEACE or do they want to be RIGHT?’
This is a very sensitive and complex issue.
I also believe that Palestinians are entitled to a homeland as well. Some argue that Israel is expanding it’s borders aggressively into and claiming Palestinian Territories. Israel argues it has a right to implement it’s policies regarding the security of it’s citizens. Unfortunately, arguing and warring seems to make up the majority of activity on both sides, briefly interrupted by promises of compromise and peace. It would be encouraging to see sustained peace talks where a tangible and effective agreement is actually implemented.
The real question is ‘Do both sides really want PEACE or do they want to be RIGHT?’
This is a very sensitive and complex issue.
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504Katrin
Guest
Man… I just almost got into a fight with one of my coworkers here at work. I talked to a woman I’m a little bit friends with and told her how I had listened to the news this morning and that I had heard that bombs had been dropped over there. I said that Israel was finally defending itself and how it didn’t take long for the opponents to say that Israel had opened the “gates of hell” by having retaliated. Really I mean, what’s Israel supposed to do? Endure everything like a sheep that goes to slaughter? They defend themselves and boom it’s the gates of hell all of a sudden that they opened.
Anyway, another coworker purposely overheard the convo, jumped in and said that she was sick and tired of everyone defending Israel as Israel had started it all hence were be to blame for everything. She raised her voice so I knew what might be brewing and so I simply said I had work to do and walked away.
Anyway, another coworker purposely overheard the convo, jumped in and said that she was sick and tired of everyone defending Israel as Israel had started it all hence were be to blame for everything. She raised her voice so I knew what might be brewing and so I simply said I had work to do and walked away.
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Pitcharan
Guest
How can two nations remain at war for several millennia?
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504Katrin
Guest
and on such holy ground out of all places…
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Both in terms of their root cause, neither in terms of how they are going about it.
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GEddie
Guest
They have not been at war for several millennia. They have been at war since Jewish Erez Israel was restored in the 1900s, after 1900 years of the Jews getting kicked around the countries of the western world.
Prior to the 1900s, there was no country of Israel OR Palestine. It was a forgotten toe-tip of the Ottaman Empire.
So there never was a State of Palestine. The UN Partition would have created one; except the Arab nations around them chose war instead, which they lost.
ICXC NIKA
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Pitcharan
Guest
What about Philistia and Israel in the OT? Who were David and Goliath?
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JustaServant
Guest
Pitcharan my friend, if you are claiming the Philistians and the Palestinians are one and the same, you have to provide historical evidence.
I say this only because this was a claim I heard (and unfortunately repeated myself) back in my fundy days. I was challenged on providing proof for it and could not find any.
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JustaServant
Guest
Was there ever a nation called the Apache? The Navajo? The Commanche?
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JustaServant
Guest
Sooooo…forgiveness didn’t exist in the OT? Is that what You’re saying?
You really need provide proof of this.
Will be waiting be with baited breath.
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Semper_Zelare
Guest
Obviously forgiveness exists in the Torah, but does it exist in the Koran?Sooooo…forgiveness didn’t exist in the OT? Is that what You’re saying?
You really need provide proof of this.
Will be waiting be with baited breath.
I think y’all are both oversimplifying this. Palestine is not about Palestinians, it’s about political and religious domination by Islam. For instance, the children of refugees are not classified as refugees by the U.N., except in the case of the Palestinians.
So, you have Palestinian communities in Egypt, Syria, etc. Many of whom have never even been to “Palestine” ie: Judea and Samaria. The point is, these people should have long integrated to the countries that they’ve fled to. But, that’s not in their political interests, or the political interests of other Moslem countries. It would be in their best welfare interests… but clearly those aren’t the number one priority or else they wouldn’t still claim to be refugees, 2, 3, or even 4 generations detached from the original refugee.
The Palestinians could all just live in Jordan, a nation which already has a majority of people who consider themselves “Palestinian”. However, the real issue here is that they will never recognize the right of Israel to exist. They don’t want 2 states, they want to destroy Israel.
Anyways, I’m obviously very pro-Israel. I’m a zionist. But, no matter what anyone’s personal opinions on this. In the past year it seems like everyone in Israel: right, left, and Palestinian have all given up hope on the two state solution. The two state solution is looking more implausible now than ever before. To me, this is good news. To y’all perhaps it is bad news. But,** it is a fact.** This fact has nothing to do with ideology, but simply knowledge of the situation on the ground.
IE: Who thinks deporting/evicting 600,000 Jewish settlers is possible? Nobody.
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LEMAITRE
Guest
Yes forgiveness does exist in the Qur’an. Some examples are below:
A) In one Hadith Mohammed said that Allah has commanded him about nine things. One of them he mentioned was “that I forgive those who do wrong to me.”
B) Another example of forgiveness we find in the Qur’an in reference to the event of “Slander of Sayyidah A’isha’”. Some hypocrites of Madinah accused her. They tried to put dirt on her noble character. One of the slanderers turned out to be Mistah, the cousin of ‘Aisha’s father Abu Bakr’s. Abu Bakr used to give financial help to this young man. After he slandered his daughter, Abu Bakr vowed not to help him any more.
But Allah reminded Abu Bakr and through him all the Believers, “Let not those among you who are endued with grace and amplitude of means resolve by oath against helping their kinsmen, those in want and those who migrated in the path of Allah. Let them forgive and overlook. Do you not wish that Allah should forgive you? Indeed Allah is oft-Forgiving, most Merciful.” (Al-Nur 24:22) Abu Bakr came out of his home and said, “Yes, indeed, I want Allah’s forgiveness. He not only continued to help him but he gave him more.
C) In the Qur’an Allah has described the Believers as “those who avoid major sins and acts of indecencies and when they are angry they forgive.” (al-Shura 42:37) Later in the same Surah Allah says, “The reward of the evil is the evil thereof, but whosoever forgives and makes amends, his reward is upon Allah.” (al-Shura 42:40)
D) In another place the Qur’an says, “If you punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith you were afflicted. But if you endure patiently, indeed it is better for the patient. Endure patiently. Your patience is not except through the help of Allah (al-Nahl 16:126-127)
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chosen_people
Guest
Perhaps you would like to detail “the unbelievable genocides”?
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