Israel and Palestine

[chosen_people]

Previously I was a zionist, until I recently read an article pointing out the problems with holding this view, not the least of which is that Christians are being persecuted in this area. (catholicknight.blogspot.com/2011/05/israeli-palestinian-conflict.html) I no longer know where I stand. I need to learn more.

What makes you think that this blog which features a Michael Voris you tube video, basically advancing replacement theology, is a reflection of mainstream Catholicism?

The fact is that the Vatican and Israel enjoy diplomatic relations and that Christians in Israel, are the only group of Christians in the Middle East and in Africa whose population is not dwindling and are the only Christians who enjoy full religious freedom, free from religious persecution.

 

[JustaServant]

What makes you think that this blog which features a Michael Voris you tube video, basically advancing replacement theology, is a reflection of mainstream Catholicism?

The fact is that the Vatican and Israel enjoy diplomatic relations and that Christians in Israel, are the only group of Christians in the Middle East and in Africa whose population is not dwindling and are the only Christians who enjoy full religious freedom, free from religious persecution.

Minor correction.
“Replacement theolgy” is a term created by fundamentalist/evangelical Christians. It in no way reflects the historical view the Catholic Church adheres to. Not being the grammar police here, but it is a negative phrase, and one that is not terribly scholarly.
As for Voris, I’ve only seen one of his videos and really have no desire to see any more. He’s hardly an ‘authority’ on anything.

 

[SeanIM]

What truly saddens me is that this is largely a fight over ‘land’ and who’s right or wrong.

I wish that all of them would remember, we were born into this world naked with nothing and that is how we leave. Everything we have in this short life is a gift and on loan…and it’s highest and best use is to share with others. This ‘me and mine’ vs ‘you and yours’ issue has gone on too long.

All we can do really is pray for them to have better understanding and to eventually learn how to live in peace. I’m sure many of the ‘people’ have this capacity, but the political leaders need to get it and live it.

 

[PaulToJesus]

Perhaps you would like to detail “the unbelievable genocides”?

1. Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
2. massacres under the view point of arabs
3. vários
4. 1948
5. viewer discretion wanted
6. deiryassin

 

[PaulToJesus]

Sooooo…forgiveness didn’t exist in the OT? Is that what You’re saying?
You really need provide proof of this.
Will be waiting be with baited breath.

Easier for you to proof its existence.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Keep it on a religios level, leave the politics to World News.

 

[XiWang717]

Yes forgiveness does exist in the Qur’an. Some examples are below:

A) In one Hadith Mohammed said that Allah has commanded him about nine things. One of them he mentioned was “that I forgive those who do wrong to me.”

B) Another example of forgiveness we find in the Qur’an in reference to the event of “Slander of Sayyidah A’isha’”. Some hypocrites of Madinah accused her. They tried to put dirt on her noble character. One of the slanderers turned out to be Mistah, the cousin of ‘Aisha’s father Abu Bakr’s. Abu Bakr used to give financial help to this young man. After he slandered his daughter, Abu Bakr vowed not to help him any more.

But Allah reminded Abu Bakr and through him all the Believers, “Let not those among you who are endued with grace and amplitude of means resolve by oath against helping their kinsmen, those in want and those who migrated in the path of Allah. Let them forgive and overlook. Do you not wish that Allah should forgive you? Indeed Allah is oft-Forgiving, most Merciful.” (Al-Nur 24:22) Abu Bakr came out of his home and said, “Yes, indeed, I want Allah’s forgiveness. He not only continued to help him but he gave him more.

C) In the Qur’an Allah has described the Believers as “those who avoid major sins and acts of indecencies and when they are angry they forgive.” (al-Shura 42:37) Later in the same Surah Allah says, “The reward of the evil is the evil thereof, but whosoever forgives and makes amends, his reward is upon Allah.” (al-Shura 42:40)

D) In another place the Qur’an says, “If you punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith you were afflicted. But if you endure patiently, indeed it is better for the patient. Endure patiently. Your patience is not except through the help of Allah (al-Nahl 16:126-127)

That is indeed true. There is indeed considerable spiritual inspiration and truth in the Qu’ran as well; I must say, though, one does wonder whether, if the Muslims are right in that the Old and New Testaments have been changed or “corrupted”, their own texts have also been so marred throughout the centuries; the bitter split between Sunni and Shi’a highlights the disagreements between even Muslims themselves. And to be honest, many Muslims have not followed the entirety of the Qu’ran as they should have, only picking and choosing the parts most to their favor…which we all do, to some extent, I suppose.

Both Judaism and Islam are harsh religions - and both the Arabs and Israelites had warring cultures, and I believe both were forced to adapt to such cultures for survival in ancient times. And how this concerns the Israel-Palestinian conflict, I do not know. The answer remains so unclear, and a solution truly seems to be beyond our grasp. While the Palestinian request for a nation is not unreasonable, neither is the Jewish request for an undivided Jerusalem as their capital - after all, one doubts that Saudi Arabia would ever allow Mecca and Medina to become Jewish or international cities. But would a Palestinian state, or a Israel-managed Jerusalem, truly be more conducive to peace and tolerance in the long run? One cannot say.

Even the Allies killed innocents in the Second World War, after all…yes, they did kill less, I suppose, but is that in the end true justice? The usual “we are good and they are evil” mindset entraps so many; this fallen world is so much more complicated than that…and in so many ways. And what is more, anti-Semitism is slowly rising in the West in some circles, as you may or may not have noticed; America’s foreign policy regarding Israel has given many Americans the excuse they need to direct their hatred and frustrations upon Jews in general. Israel’s national anthem signifies hope - but I wish that the Jewish people would see that the Arabs deserve a chance to hope as well.

I do have great sympathy and respect for the Jewish people…but I fear the black-and-white, all-or-nothing mentality they have so far embraced may lead to not only the destruction of the Palestinians, but their own destruction as well.

 

[Cider]

Ex Jew now Catholic and I don’t support either side. This mess is the result of post colonialism and artificial borders and statehood creation at the hands of the UN. Those that live in the region are going to have to work out the situation and US involvement is just dragging out the process instead of helping IMO.

 

[XiWang717]

Ex Jew now Catholic and I don’t support either side. This mess is the result of post colonialism and artificial borders and statehood creation at the hands of the UN. Those that live in the region are going to have to work out the situation and US involvement is just dragging out the process instead of helping IMO.

Perhaps neutrality is the best course…but what does neutrality mean, really? Should one sit back and just wait to see who wins in the end while doing and saying nothing? Sometimes, inaction and lack of decisiveness is not ideal either.

 

[acarlson]

I support the right of both communities to exist as states and for them to live in peace without fear of attack. But I do not support terrorism or disproportionate retaliation.

 

[Pitcharan]

Ex Jew now Catholic and I don’t support either side. This mess is the result of post colonialism and artificial borders and statehood creation at the hands of the UN. Those that live in the region are going to have to work out the situation and US involvement is just dragging out the process instead of helping IMO.

It is high time that both Palestinians and Jews shunned external influence and worked out their own peace. They are best suited to unify the whole region and collectively oppose and nullify international arms race. Middle-east has become the source of big money for wicked vested interests and these countries have been manipulated and forced into puppetry. The countries affected must come together in introspection. Who are the gainers and who are the losers?

 

[LEMAITRE]

Previously I was a zionist, until I recently read an article pointing out the problems with holding this view, not the least of which is that Christians are being persecuted in this area. (catholicknight.blogspot.com/2011/05/israeli-palestinian-conflict.html) I no longer know where I stand. I need to learn more.

I think you will find that it is the ‘aggressive conversion’ techniques practised by Christians’ such as Evangelicals and Messianic Jews/Jews for Jesus etc who are viewed upon as unwelcome.

Catholics are not allowed to actively ‘prosletyse’ Jews, especially in Israel. This is a long held view which has had to be amplified and clarified by the last two Popes as the recent increase of a certain ‘type’ of conversion attempt by Protestants were upsetting the religious hierarchy in Israel. If the Church militant are approached then that is a completely different issue.

The Church teaches that the Jews are our older brother in faith, the roots of our faith which is why Jews who convert to Catholicism are allowed by the Church to continue practices associated with Judaism. Jews have their own path to follow according to prophecy and their role as the Chosen People.

 

[LEMAITRE]

What about Philistia and Israel in the OT? Who were David and Goliath?

Regardless of the place of origin of the Philistines, whether Crete or Egypt, or anywhere else, we do know for certain how “Philistine” became “Palestine.” The name Palestine originated from the Greek word pronounced Palaistina, which is derived from the Hebrew word pronounced pel-eh-sheth, meaning land of the Philistines (one of the most famous of whom was Goliath). The original word referred only to a small coastal territory corresponding to what is today Gaza, never to all of the land of Jacob, who God renamed Israel.

After about 1250 BCE, the Philistines occupied the coastal plains and foothills of Palestine, south from about present-day Tel Aviv. In later centuries they absorbed the culture and religious beliefs of their northern neighbours, the Canaanites, and became indistinguishable from them. The Hebrew people occupied the inland, in an area somewhat larger than today’s Western Bank.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPAEDIA "The Philistines were a people from the area of the Aegean Sea who invaded the southern coast of Palestine and threatened the Israelites.

In the latter half of the 2d millennium b.c., invading Indo-European tribes forced many people living on the islands and coast of the northeastern Mediterranean out of their original homeland. These displaced people attacked the hittites in Asia Minor and the cities of the North Syrian and Palestinian coast; they finally invaded Egypt in the reign of Ramses III, who defeated them in a land and naval battle fought on the coast (c. 1170 b.c.). When these so-called Peoples of the Sea were forced out of Egypt, one group, the Tsikal, settled in the coastal area of Palestine at the vicinity of Dor (South of Carmel). Another group that are called prst in the Egyptian records settled along the Palestinian coast south of Dor.

Their Egyptian designation, pronounced approximately pulastu, corresponds to the name p elištîm, Philistines, by which they were known to the Israelites. The name Palestine is derived from it. In a short time the Philistines took over the area between Joppe and the Wadi Ghazzeh and formed a pentapolis, a group of “five cities,” consisting of Gaza, Ashkelon, and Ashdod (later Azotus) on the coast and

 

[minkymurph]

In relation to discussions about peoples of the ancient near East, did God not give land to tribes other than the Israelites?

I recall some passage in Scripture where the Israelites are told not to go up against a tribe (was it the Edomites?) because the land they occupied was land God had promised them.

 

[GEddie]

Regardless of the place of origin of the Philistines, whether Crete or Egypt, or anywhere else, we do know for certain how “Philistine” became “Palestine.” The name Palestine originated from the Greek word pronounced Palaistina, which is derived from the Hebrew word pronounced pel-eh-sheth, meaning land of the Philistines (one of the most famous of whom was Goliath). The original word referred only to a small coastal territory corresponding to what is today Gaza, never to all of the land of Jacob, who God renamed Israel.

After about 1250 BCE, the Philistines occupied the coastal plains and foothills of Palestine, south from about present-day Tel Aviv. In later centuries they absorbed the culture and religious beliefs of their northern neighbours, the Canaanites, and became indistinguishable from them. The Hebrew people occupied the inland, in an area somewhat larger than today’s Western Bank.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPAEDIA "The Philistines were a people from the area of the Aegean Sea who invaded the southern coast of Palestine and threatened the Israelites.

In the latter half of the 2d millennium b.c., invading Indo-European tribes forced many people living on the islands and coast of the northeastern Mediterranean out of their original homeland. These displaced people attacked the hittites in Asia Minor and the cities of the North Syrian and Palestinian coast; they finally invaded Egypt in the reign of Ramses III, who defeated them in a land and naval battle fought on the coast (c. 1170 b.c.). When these so-called Peoples of the Sea were forced out of Egypt, one group, the Tsikal, settled in the coastal area of Palestine at the vicinity of Dor (South of Carmel). Another group that are called prst in the Egyptian records settled along the Palestinian coast south of Dor.

Their Egyptian designation, pronounced approximately pulastu, corresponds to the name p elištîm, Philistines, by which they were known to the Israelites. The name Palestine is derived from it. In a short time the Philistines took over the area between Joppe and the Wadi Ghazzeh and formed a pentapolis, a group of “five cities,” consisting of Gaza, Ashkelon, and Ashdod (later Azotus) on the coast and

Thanks for the good info!

Also, after the defeat of Judaea by the Romans in AD70 and their dispersion into Europe, the land was renamed to Syria Palestina, and the name stuck. (At the same time, Jerusalem was renamed to Aelia Capitolina, which fortunately did not stick.)

After the Romans, the place was known as Palestine to the Byzantines, Ottomans and British. Those who lived there became “Palestinians”, but were probably not connected to the Philistines, other than by name.

N.B. The coastal zone of Ashdod & Askelon, settled by Philistines, was not inhabited by Israelites, who were then allegedly averse to living along the sea. But Scripture states that one day, their descendants would reside in Ashdod and in Ashkelon.

Today, these coastal cities, as well as Tel Aviv, are among the most important in Israel.
Prophetic fulfillment, anybody??

ICXC NIKA

 

[504Katrin]

Not sure if we can totally leave politics out of it as the thread title already implies politics.

This is a very nice and friendly debate here, so I’d like to suggest that maybe if we get into politics too much we can move the thread over to the World News Forum? Just a suggestion

 

[XiWang717]

I would know, however, since most Catholics seem to favor Israel, those who voted for Palestine, what are your reasons for doing so? I would hear clear arguments from both sides to reach my own opinion on the issue.

 

[Pitcharan]

Regardless of the place of origin of the Philistines, whether Crete or Egypt, or anywhere else, we do know for certain how “Philistine” became “Palestine.” The name Palestine originated from the Greek word pronounced Palaistina, which is derived from the Hebrew word pronounced pel-eh-sheth, meaning land of the Philistines (one of the most famous of whom was Goliath). The original word referred only to a small coastal territory corresponding to what is today Gaza, never to all of the land of Jacob, who God renamed Israel.

After about 1250 BCE, the Philistines occupied the coastal plains and foothills of Palestine, south from about present-day Tel Aviv. In later centuries they absorbed the culture and religious beliefs of their northern neighbours, the Canaanites, and became indistinguishable from them. The Hebrew people occupied the inland, in an area somewhat larger than today’s Western Bank.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPAEDIA "The Philistines were a people from the area of the Aegean Sea who invaded the southern coast of Palestine and threatened the Israelites.

In the latter half of the 2d millennium b.c., invading Indo-European tribes forced many people living on the islands and coast of the northeastern Mediterranean out of their original homeland. These displaced people attacked the hittites in Asia Minor and the cities of the North Syrian and Palestinian coast; they finally invaded Egypt in the reign of Ramses III, who defeated them in a land and naval battle fought on the coast (c. 1170 b.c.). When these so-called Peoples of the Sea were forced out of Egypt, one group, the Tsikal, settled in the coastal area of Palestine at the vicinity of Dor (South of Carmel). Another group that are called prst in the Egyptian records settled along the Palestinian coast south of Dor.

Their Egyptian designation, pronounced approximately pulastu, corresponds to the name p elištîm, Philistines, by which they were known to the Israelites. The name Palestine is derived from it. In a short time the Philistines took over the area between Joppe and the Wadi Ghazzeh and formed a pentapolis, a group of “five cities,” consisting of Gaza, Ashkelon, and Ashdod (later Azotus) on the coast and

Most useful and enlightening post. Thank you.

 

[Ian1968]

There are a lot of Palestinian Christians and Catholics that the West is ignoring.

They are our brothers.

 

[GEddie]

There are a lot of Palestinian Christians and Catholics that the West is ignoring.

They are our brothers.

It’s not at all a trivial question whether they would be better off in a new Muslim state than in the Jewish one, though.