Iss 22:25 proves Papacy's demise?

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ni8_shadow

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Iss 22 has been pointed to to be a correlation to Mt 16 regarding the keys. But if you read Iss 22, esp verse 25, it seems that the solid peg God establishes will eventually give way.

Does this mean that the power of the keys and Peter as the rock will eventually give way?

Haven’t heard a protestant use that against this verse but I want to be ready for that eventuality.

Am I interpreting it wrong?
 
ni8_shadow said:
Iss 22 has been pointed to to be a correlation to Mt 16 regarding the keys. But if you read Iss 22, esp verse 25, it seems that the solid peg God establishes will eventually give way.

Does this mean that the power of the keys and Peter as the rock will eventually give way?

Haven’t heard a protestant use that against this verse but I want to be ready for that eventuality.

Am I interpreting it wrong?
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I don’t think that this has anything to do with Peter and the keys. The following is from a Jewish study bible:
the “peg” of the v. seems to refer back to Shebna. Alternatively, if it is the same peg referred to in v.23, then Eliakim is ultimately subject to the same criticism as the man he replaces.

JeanneH
 
Hi,

In this passage God is speaking through Isaiah to Shebna, who is being removed from office and replaced by Eliakim. It is to the peg representing Shebna’s authority of office to which the Lord is referring when He says it will be cut down. Note that when this happens, Eliakim’s peg has already been fastened ‘in a sure place,’ which serves to show that the office of Steward continues even though one particular holder of that office is deposed.

So Is 20:25 does not suggest that the papacy will fail, only that Shebna’s position as Steward will fail. The papacy itself endures as the position of Royal Steward endured, in agreement with what Our Lord implied in Mt 16.

Pax Christi,

Jim
 
ni8_shadow said:
Iss 22 has been pointed to to be a correlation to Mt 16 regarding the keys. But if you read Iss 22, esp verse 25, it seems that the solid peg God establishes will eventually give way.

Does this mean that the power of the keys and Peter as the rock will eventually give way?

Haven’t heard a protestant use that against this verse but I want to be ready for that eventuality.

Am I interpreting it wrong?
Click to expand...
Yes, that passage is not a prophecy of the papacy, but simply shows another example of what keys symbolize. However, they are good for comparison in that God says that institution will eventually fail whereas Jesus says to Peter that what He is instituting never will (the gates of Hell shall not prevail.). The NT institutions are always greater then the OT one’s which were mere shadows.
 
Hmmm, the other answers seem better than mine–I defer to them!🙂
 
Ahhh forgot the OT is the imperfect NT. Thanks for straightening out the peg thing too.

Peace
 
I think it may have been Scott Hahn who tried to make it a prophecy — I could be wrong. Try pointing out that Rev 3:7 directly quotes Isaiah 22:22 about Jesus and turn the question around to him. Does Isaiah 22:25 mean that Jesus will fail as the one who holds the key of David?

Isaiah 22:22
I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

Revelation 3:7
To the Church in Philadelphia ] "To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

:confused:
 
First, I don’t think Isa. 22 is a prophecy, it’s a foreshadow.

Second, “a peg in a sure place” refers to Eliakim (good guy) who will replace Shebna (bad guy).

Third, “a peg in a sure place” is an allegory. Tents were a common thing in those days. If your tent pegs are firmly secured (in a sure place), it won’t be blown down by the wind. A tent was very much like a home to those people.

God fastened Peter like a peg in a sure place. We know this is true because Jesus said the Father revealed to Peter who He was.
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
I think it may have been Scott Hahn who tried to make it a prophecy — I could be wrong. Try pointing out that Rev 3:7 directly quotes Isaiah 22:22 about Jesus and turn the question around to him. Does Isaiah 22:25 mean that Jesus will fail as the one who holds the key of David?

Isaiah 22:22
I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

Revelation 3:7
To the Church in Philadelphia ] "To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

:confused:
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THe King always holds the key to the kingdom as all authority rests with the King [Isaiah] … The King does not give up any authority when he gives the ‘keys’ to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is given his authority by and through the King - who always maintains his own [Master Key if you will] Authority.

The Prime Minister is known to the people as a Father [Abba] [Isaish]

So Revelation’s reference to Jesus as the holder of the "Keys’ does not take any thing away from Jesus instituting Peter as the temporal head of the Chruch [the New Jerusalem, New Kingdom, etc].

Jesus holds the Master Key and Jesus authorized Peter to head the Church, to open and shut and gave to him the keys that represent the ability to open and shut… it is not an either / or …
 
And, exactly where does the scriptures indicated a “prime minster” past the apostles? Eph 2:20 limits the office of apostle to those whom Jesus personaly picked as an example Jesus choosing Paul.
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
And, exactly where does the scriptures indicated a “prime minster” past the apostles? Eph 2:20 limits the office of apostle to those whom Jesus personaly picked as an example Jesus choosing Paul.
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Jesus said “and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it” and “I will be with you until the end of the age” and “whose sins you forgive are forgiven, whose sins you retain are retained” and “go forth and preach to all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and o the Holy Spirit”.

His words indicate succession of the infallible teaching authority of the Church. There must be successors of Peter, otherwise, the Church might be overcome by Hades and die off. That won’t/can’t happen because of His promise.
 
ni8_shadow said:
Iss 22 has been pointed to to be a correlation to Mt 16 regarding the keys. But if you read Iss 22, esp verse 25, it seems that the solid peg God establishes will eventually give way.

Does this mean that the power of the keys and Peter as the rock will eventually give way?

Haven’t heard a protestant use that against this verse but I want to be ready for that eventuality.

Am I interpreting it wrong?
Click to expand...

The passage has nothing to do with the Church - let alone the Papacy. So there’s nothing to worry about. 🙂​

 
Daniel_Marsh said:
And, exactly where does the scriptures indicated a “prime minster” past the apostles? Eph 2:20 limits the office of apostle to those whom Jesus personaly picked as an example Jesus choosing Paul.
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The giving of “keys” to Peter is a indication of the 'Office" … and an office is filled when it becomes vacant …

Also, Peter identifies an office when he quotes the OT in declaring that a successor be chosen for Judas…“let another, his office take” …

St. Paul’s admonition to follow your ‘bishop’…

The early church fathers identify the local church with the bishops …
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
And, exactly where does the scriptures indicated a “prime minster” past the apostles? Eph 2:20 limits the office of apostle to those whom Jesus personaly picked as an example Jesus choosing Paul.
Click to expand...
Is there still a kingdom? Has the King returned yet?
 
NotWorthy said:
Is there still a kingdom? Has the King returned yet?
Click to expand...
Good Questions … There is still a kingdom and Jesus has not returned … the Church is still on mission spreading the Good News of Salvation [Gospel] …
 
YADA said:
Good Questions … There is still a kingdom and Jesus has not returned … the Church is still on mission spreading the Good News of Salvation [Gospel] …
Click to expand...
Hence the need for a Prime Minister. Can you say Benedict XVI?
 
YADA said:
Good Questions … There is still a kingdom and Jesus has not returned … the Church is still on mission spreading the Good News of Salvation [Gospel] …
Click to expand...
What was His departure speech? “I am with you always (lit. all of the days) until the close of the age.”
 
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