Issue on campus about standing during the Consecration

[hamburglar]

I go to a Roman Catholic college, and we have Mass at our Chapel every Sunday. At the beginning of the year, the students were instructed to stand throughout the Consecration, and make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects. There was an article on the opinion page of our school newspaper that argued against this, but I cannot find that article. Basically it said that we should be kneeling. The reason for standing was because we do not have enough room (supposedly) except the majority of students have no problem kneeling after receiving. The author said that since people have no problem kneeling after Communion, they shouldn’t have a problem kneeling before.

I have included a response that was written in to our newspaper. This response was written by our liturgical planner at the college:

(Name removed)’s article in the October 31 issue of the Saint is misleading. At Bukowski chapel, the faithful are encouraged to stand during the Eucharistic Prayer and to make a profound bow during the consecration after the priest genuflects.” The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) promotes the use of adequate space to accommodate ritual posture among the assembly and allows for adaptation where there is a lack of space.

GIRM 95 and 96 makes a case for uniform gesture during the Liturgy of the Word, the Eucharistic Prayer and the communion rite. It discourages the faithful from “making any appearance of individualism or division.” Interestingly, GIRM 43 indicates that “the faithful may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after communion is observed.”

“In 1969, GIRM 21 prescribed the posture of standing for the Eucharistic prayer, with kneeling or genuflection at the consecration. The bishops of North America were allowed to adapt this posture to kneeling during the entire Eucharistic prayer. Belgium, the Netherlands, France and Quebec opted for standing throughout. In Spain and Italy, the bishops accepted the universal norm – standing throughout except for the consecration” (Huels, John. More Disputed Questions in the Liturgy. Chicago: LTP, 1996).

It is notable that the church has utilized the posture of standing during the Anaphora for the better part of its history. Eucharistic Prayer II gives witness to the ancient practice of standing with these words, “We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you.” Standing is an esteemed prayer posture in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the Gospels that expresses human dignity, respect between persons, and a readiness to respond to the situation at hand. Those who stand during the Eucharistic prayer are in good company.

What are everyone’s thoughts on this?

 

[Daprato]

I go to a Roman Catholic college, and we have Mass at our Chapel every Sunday. At the beginning of the year, the students were instructed to stand throughout the Consecration, and make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects. There was an article on the opinion page of our school newspaper that argued against this, but I cannot find that article. Basically it said that we should be kneeling. The reason for standing was because we do not have enough room (supposedly) except the majority of students have no problem kneeling after receiving. The author said that since people have no problem kneeling after Communion, they shouldn’t have a problem kneeling before.

I have included a response that was written in to our newspaper. This response was written by our liturgical planner at the college:

What are everyone’s thoughts on this?

This is sleazy. Get a handful of your friends to kneel as you should, front row, center. Ignore suggestions that you should stand – don’t even engage in debate.

 

[John_Lilburne]

I would tend to agree with the liturgical planner’s response.
I don’t understand the quotes at the end of the second sentence.
I think a stronger case can be made by quoting from the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, (which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html ):

“42. … A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.”

“43. … In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. …
With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.”

It is not contrary to the Missal to have people stand if there is a lack of space (in the USA). If the priest is directing this, that is what everyone should be doing.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If the Chapel is laid out like a monastery, then perhaps standing is the proper posture.

At the High-School Chapel, where I was attending the Diaconate program, standing was the proper poster because if you knelt, you wouldn’t see the altar. The director for the diaconate, asked us to stand.

Jim

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I go to a Roman Catholic college, and we have Mass at our Chapel every Sunday. At the beginning of the year, the students were instructed to stand throughout the Consecration, and make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects. There was an article on the opinion page of our school newspaper that argued against this, but I cannot find that article. Basically it said that we should be kneeling. The reason for standing was because we do not have enough room (supposedly) except the majority of students have no problem kneeling after receiving. The author said that since people have no problem kneeling after Communion, they shouldn’t have a problem kneeling before.

I have included a response that was written in to our newspaper. This response was written by our liturgical planner at the college:

What are everyone’s thoughts on this?

Standing is an individual option when you do not have enough room or for some other reason are unable to kneel. It does not work to say that every one must stand because these 10 people in this corner cannot kneel. The other 50 people who can kneel are required to do so at the times specified in the GIRM.

 

[benedictgal]

I go to a Roman Catholic college, and we have Mass at our Chapel every Sunday. At the beginning of the year, the students were instructed to stand throughout the Consecration, and make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects. There was an article on the opinion page of our school newspaper that argued against this, but I cannot find that article. Basically it said that we should be kneeling. The reason for standing was because we do not have enough room (supposedly) except the majority of students have no problem kneeling after receiving. The author said that since people have no problem kneeling after Communion, they shouldn’t have a problem kneeling before.

I have included a response that was written in to our newspaper. This response was written by our liturgical planner at the college:

What are everyone’s thoughts on this?

First of all, whoever wrote the citations from the GIRM should have consulted with the 2002 edition. I agree with Brother Rich and the other poster who indicated that in the United States, the norm is to kneel.

While I was at UT, I had gone to the University Catholic Center, where everyone stood. I stuck to my guns and knelt. We were all young and did not have any physical impediments that would have prevented us from kneeling. It’s just one of those instances where people get creative when the Mass when there is no need.

You might also use this as a good retort to those who are against kneeling. It comes from none other than Pope Benedict XVI. It appears in Spirit of the Liturgy:

Kneeling does not come from any culture – it comes from the Bible and its knowledge of God. The central importance of kneeling in the Bible can be seen in a very concrete way. The word proskynein alone occurs fifty-nine times in the New Testament, twenty-four of which are in the Apocalypse, the book of the heavenly Liturgy, which is presented to the Church as the standard for her own Liturgy.

In addition, he makes another strong point regarding kneeling:

The Christian Liturgy is a cosmic Liturgy precisely because it bends the knee before the crucified and exalted Lord. Here is the center of authentic culture - the culture of truth. The humble gesture by which we fall at the feet of the Lord inserts us into the true path of life of the cosmos.

There is much more that we might add. For example, there is the touching story told by Eusebius in his history of the Church as a tradition going back to Hegesippus in the second century. Apparently, Saint James, the “brother of the Lord”, the first bishop of Jerusalem and “head” of the Jewish Christian Church, had a kind of callous on his knees, because he was always on his knees worshipping God and begging forgiveness for his people (2, 23, 6). Again, there is a story that comes from the sayings of the Desert Fathers, according to which the devil was compelled by God to show himself to a certain Abba Apollo. He looked black and ugly, with frighteningly thin limbs, but most strikingly, he had no knees. The inability to kneel is seen as the very essence of the diabolical.

But I do not want to go into more detail. I should like to make just one more remark. The expression used by Saint Luke to describe the kneeling of Christians (theis ta gonata) is unknown in classical Greek. We are dealing here with a specifically Christian word. With that remark, our reflections turn full circle to where they began. It may well be that kneeling is alien to modern culture – insofar as it is a culture, for this culture has turned away from the faith and no longer knows the one before whom kneeling is the right, indeed the intrinsically necessary gesture. The man who learns to believe learns also to kneel, and a faith or a liturgy no longer familiar with kneeling would be sick at the core. Where it has been lost, kneeling must be rediscovered, so that, in our prayer, we remain in fellowship with the apostles and martyrs, in fellowship with the whole cosmos, indeed in union with Jesus Christ Himself.

 

[Corki]

Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow

when the priest genuflects after the consecration. …
With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal."

It is not contrary to the Missal to have people stand if there is a lack of space (in the USA). If the priest is directing this, that is what everyone should be doing.

Standing is an individual option when you do not have enough room or for some other reason are unable to kneel. It does not work to say that every one must stand because these 10 people in this corner cannot kneel. The other 50 people who can kneel are required to do so at the times specified in the GIRM.

The GIRM seems to back up the idea of it being an individual’s responsibility. It does not say “in Church’s where…” but rather “Those who…” It also says that people are to follow the direction of the ministers where it is in conformity with the missal. To tell everyone to stand when the missal directs us to kneel would be a direction contrary to the missal.

Too much stress on the common posture at the expense of the directions in the GIRM would lead to situations where everyone was directed to sit because of a group of parishioners who are in wheelchairs.

 

[ElectricMayhem]

I just do whatever everyone else is doing wherever I go and would expect them to do the same at my parish. During mass I suppose it would wrong to intentional distingiush oneself from the worshipping community norms (as long as they are OK) and choose personal piety. But what do I know, I’m in the cry room chasing around kids.

c’mon…not even st.peter’s in rome has kneelers inside or outside.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Hamburglar:

Is it possible and permitted to attend Mass off campus?

If so, let all those who want to kneel go to Mass elsewhere. Let them also make their donations elsewhere. Money talks.

 

[stpetric]

I go to a Roman Catholic college, and we have Mass at our Chapel every Sunday. At the beginning of the year, the students were instructed to stand throughout the Consecration, and make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects. … What are everyone’s thoughts on this?

The rubrics and GIRM are clear that kneeling for the consecration is the norm. There are circumstances where variations from the norm are permitted, but your liturgical czar’s notions of how things should be are not among them. If you are physically able to, you should kneel.

 

[Br_Mark]

Dear Hamburglar;

As you have already stated it is the “customary” of the chapel at the college that you attend to stand during the consecration. And that you had read a reply from the liturgical planner at the college.
And since it (standing during the consecration) is already a established posture, than I assume that the presiding priest is aware of it as well. I would stand with every one else; unless one wants to call attention to oneself and their expression of holiness.

There was a bishop about ten years ago who warned against what he called rubricism, which is more concerned with the outward apperances vs the inner reality of the action; sort of like the discussions between Jesus and the pharseees.

And the question you had concerning a Eucharistic Prayer that was used at your college chapel; from the information that you gave it could either be Eucharistic Prayer C or D, Rite II in the Book of Divine Worship; which is an approved text.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving !

Br Mark, OSB

 

[stpetric]

As you have already stated it is the “customary” of the chapel at the college that you attend to stand during the consecration.

Actually, Br Mark, what Hamburglar said is that they were instructed to stand only at the beginning of the school year.

There was a bishop about ten years ago who warned against what he called rubricism, which is more concerned with the outward apperances vs the inner reality of the action; sort of like the discussions between Jesus and the pharseees.

Forgive me, Brother, but that’s something of a straw man. I don’t see any arguing from “rubricism” in this case. If there were problems with an especially cramped worship space or worshipers who were physically unable to kneel, I think most of us would agree that it’s fine for the congregation to stand. But in this case, it appears to be some “liturgical planner’s” whim about how things should be – and that’s just not sufficient reason to flout the law of the church.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

It depends on the meeting space. If it is not a chapel with kneelers, then standing is the better way (e.g. temporary room being utilized for a one-time or seldom use).

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Dear Hamburglar;

As you have already stated it is the “customary” of the chapel at the college that you attend to stand during the consecration. And that you had read a reply from the liturgical planner at the college.
And since it (standing during the consecration) is already a established posture, than I assume that the presiding priest is aware of it as well. I would stand with every one else; unless one wants to call attention to oneself and their expression of holiness.

There was a bishop about ten years ago who warned against what he called rubricism, which is more concerned with the outward apperances vs the inner reality of the action; sort of like the discussions between Jesus and the pharseees.

And the question you had concerning a Eucharistic Prayer that was used at your college chapel; from the information that you gave it could either be Eucharistic Prayer C or D, Rite II in the Book of Divine Worship; which is an approved text.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving !

Br Mark, OSB

Nothing exempts the college chapel from the GIRM or the interpretation of RS. The prior GIRM (1972) also required kneeling at the Consecration, so the standing posture has since the NO Mass was instituted been an illicit posture.

 

[Brendan]

It depends on the meeting space. If it is not a chapel with kneelers, then standing is the better way (e.g. temporary room being utilized for a one-time or seldom use).

No, the presence or lack of kneelers only impacts ones physical ability to kneel, not the 'better option.

Our parish is undergoing renovations, so we are currently celebrating Mass in the parish hall. We do not have kneelers there, but all those who are physically capable ( 90% of us) kneel.

Catholics knelt on floors without kneelers for centuries, can we really say that we are more invalid than they?

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

No, the presence or lack of kneelers only impacts ones physical ability to kneel, not the 'better option.

Our parish is undergoing renovations, so we are currently celebrating Mass in the parish hall. We do not have kneelers there, but all those who are physically capable ( 90% of us) kneel.

Catholics knelt on floors without kneelers for centuries, can we really say that we are more invalid than they?

If you want to personally kneel, then go right ahead. In all the temporary setups I have been in, standing is the better viable option under the physical circumstances and that is what is encouraged, but not required.

In the end of if you are kneeling or not, the spiritual part of that segment of the mass is not lost on anyone attending.

 

[Aileen74]

I go to a Roman Catholic college, and we have Mass at our Chapel every Sunday. At the beginning of the year, the students were instructed to stand throughout the Consecration, and make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects. There was an article on the opinion page of our school newspaper that argued against this, but I cannot find that article. Basically it said that we should be kneeling. The reason for standing was because we do not have enough room (supposedly) except the majority of students have no problem kneeling after receiving. The author said that since people have no problem kneeling after Communion, they shouldn’t have a problem kneeling before.

I have included a response that was written in to our newspaper. This response was written by our liturgical planner at the college:

What are everyone’s thoughts on this?

At our church we’ve always stood out of respect and bowed during the consecration, but we’re Melkite Catholic. Aren’t Roman Catholics were supposed to kneel.

My though is just obey your Bishop in the matter and you’ll be fine. As long as you’re personally being respectful in your heart the position your body is in should make too much of a difference as long as you’re being obedient.

 

[Br_Mark]

Dear Rich, SFO

Contrary to your statement regarding the GIRM & RS the Bishop can “override” / implement directives in his own diocese. As well as religious houses can and do operate under their own Customary and this chapel that is in question belongs to a college which is operated by the Dominicans.

Br Mark, OSB

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Dear Rich, SFO

Contrary to your statement regarding the GIRM & RS the Bishop can “override” / implement directives in his own diocese. As well as religious houses can and do operate under their own Customary and this chapel that is in question belongs to a college which is operated by the Dominicans.

Br Mark, OSB

The local Bishop has no authority to dictate a posture different from the Norms at the Consecration. He can require standing after the Lamb of God. I will agree that Religious houses and Monasteries may be exempt, I’m not sure. I do not know if this campus ministry is run by the diocese or not or how that changes things.

 

[Br_Mark]

Dear Rich, SFO;

I beg to differ with you concerning the authority of a bishop in his own diocese. The bishop is the “ordinary”, the standard which all functions in the diocese is under his control.

For example I might disagree with a certain bishop, but he “rules” his diocese until he is either removed or “overrided” by a higher authority, ie the pope, not an office of the Holy See.

Question ? In your opinion which has greater authority an Excumentical Council or an office / department of the Vatican ?

Br Mark, OSB