Issues about the Exodus plagues

[Crumpy]

I’m reading a translation that is giving me a headache. The pestilence plague comes along and kills all the Egyptian “livestock.” But, a plague or two later, the hail plague comes along and – what? – kills all the livestock --?? And, then the tenth plague comes along and kills the firstborn of the Egyptian males and – what else but more livestock!

If the tenth plague kills all the first born sons, does that mean that a father who was a first born son and then HIS first born son could be killed as well? In other words, was every male who was himself a first-born son killed? or, just as we migh suppose, just the first-born sons below a certain age?

Perhaps there is some semantic problem here or a translation problem. A crisis was averted in church several years ago, when the pastor invited all the “children” to come up and get an Easter candy. Well, logically, everyone should have gone up to get a candy, but it seems that only the youngsters took advantage of the offer. I get hung up on words and logic, sometimes.

 

[wolfgang]

Hi Crumpy - I am trying to stop laughing. I never realized so many cattle were involved in so many plagues of Egypt.

I would have thought the same thing if I had read what you are reading. And, I would have gotten a headache too.

I tend to do the same thing you are doing.

The story about the candy is interesting too. I’m glad a crisis was averted and you right - technically all should have gone up to get candy.

BTW, I have always thought you to have great CAF name.

:angel1:

 

[Nita]

Few thoughts:

First, I don’t think it speaks anywhere of the amount of time that passes between each plague.
Never thought about it before, but could it have been as much as a year???

Second, Ex 9:6 “…All the livestock of the Egyptians died, but not one animal belonging to the Israelites died.”
I’m sure the Egyptians would have had no problem confiscating some of the cattle owned by the Israelites to replenish their herds.
Another thought: Could there have have been other non-Egyptian groups living in Egypt (captured or immigrant) that would not have been included in the plague warnings to the Egyptians.

Third, with the plague of hail, 9:20 says that “Those officials of Pharaoh who feared the word of the LORD hurried to bring their slaves and their livestock inside. But those who ignored the word of the LORD left their slaves and livestock in the field.” Only the livestock in the fields was killed (9:25).

 

[wolfgang]

Few thoughts:

First, I don’t think it speaks anywhere of the amount of time that passes between each plague.
Never thought about it before, but could it have been as much as a year???

Second, Ex 9:6 “…All the livestock of the Egyptians died, but not one animal belonging to the Israelites died.”
I’m sure the Egyptians would have had no problem confiscating some of the cattle owned by the Israelites to replenish their herds.
Another thought: Could there have have been other non-Egyptian groups living in Egypt (captured or immigrant) that would not have been included in the plague warnings to the Egyptians.

Third, with the plague of hail, 9:20 says that “Those officials of Pharaoh who feared the word of the LORD hurried to bring their slaves and their livestock inside. But those who ignored the word of the LORD left their slaves and livestock in the field.” Only the livestock in the fields was killed (9:25).

These are good points, Nita. Like I told Crumpy, I had no idea so much livestock was involved. But, again, you have made good points here. Thanks for your insight.

:angel1:

 

[patrick457]

I’m reading a translation that is giving me a headache. The pestilence plague comes along and kills all the Egyptian “livestock.” But, a plague or two later, the hail plague comes along and – what? – kills all the livestock --?? And, then the tenth plague comes along and kills the firstborn of the Egyptian males and – what else but more livestock!

Let me answer the first question briefly first as I have little time as of now:

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh and tell him, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of the Hebrews: Let my people go, so that they may serve me! For if you refuse to let them go and continue holding them, behold, the hand of the LORD will be on your livestock (miqneh, “cattle”, “livestock”, “a purchasable domestic animal”) in the field, on the horses, on the donkeys, on the camels, on the oxen (baqar, “herds”, “cattle”), and on the sheep – a very severe plague. But the Lord will make a distinction between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt, and nothing will die of all that belongs to the sons of Israel.” And the LORD set an appointed time, saying, “Tomorrow the LORD will do this thing in the land.” And the LORD did this thing on the next day; all (kol) the livestock (miqneh) of Egypt died, but of the livestock of Israel not one died. Pharaoh sent, and behold, not even one of the livestock of the Israelites was dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.

It would seem here that the word “all” clearly does not mean “all” in the exclusive sense, because subsequent plagues involve cattle. The word must denote such a large number that whatever was left was insignificant for the economy. It could also be taken to mean “all [kinds of] livestock died.”

 

[patrick457]

Now here’s a followup:

But, a plague or two later, the hail plague comes along and – what? – kills all the livestock --??

Exodus 9:13-26:

And the LORD said to Moses, “*Rise up early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh and say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD, God of the Hebrews, "Let my people go that they may serve me! For this time I will send all my plagues to your heart and on your servants and on your people so that you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with plague, and you would have been effaced from the earth. But indeed for this purpose I have caused you to stand, that I may show you my power, and so that my name may be declared in all the earth. *
“You are still exalting yourself up against my people by not letting them go - behold, about this time tomorrow I am going to cause very heavy hail to rain down such as has not been in Egypt from the day it was founded until now. So send now and bring to refuge your livestock and all that you have in the field - every man or beast who may be found in the open field and is not brought into the house – the hail will come down on them, and they will die!”’” He among the servants of Pharaoh who feared the word of YHWH made his servants and his livestock flee into the houses, but he who did not put to his heart the word of YHWH left his servants and his livestock in the field.

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Extend your hand toward the heavens that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt, on man and on beast and on all the plants of the field in the land of Egypt.” And Moses extended his staff toward the heavens, and the LORD gave voices and hail, and fire ran along on the earth; and the LORD rained hail on the land of Egypt. There was hail, and fire taking hold in the midst of the hail, so very heavy that there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation. The hail struck down everything that was in the open field throughout all the land of Egypt, from man even to beast; the hail also struck every plant of the field and broke every tree of the field to pieces. Only in the land of Goshen, where the sons of Israel were, was there no hail.

And, then the tenth plague comes along and kills the firstborn of the Egyptian males and – what else but more livestock!

If the tenth plague kills all the first born sons, does that mean that a father who was a first born son and then HIS first born son could be killed as well? In other words, was every male who was himself a first-born son killed? or, just as we migh suppose, just the first-born sons below a certain age?

Let’s see (Exodus 11:4-8; 12:29)

Then Moses said, “Thus says the LORD, ‘About the middle of the night I will go out into the midst of Egypt; and all the firstborn in the land of Egypt will die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sits on his throne, to the firstborn of the female slave who is behind the handmill, and all the firstborn of the beasts (behemah, “large animal”, “cattle”). And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, which like it there has never been or will ever be again - but against any of the sons of Israel not a dog will sharpen his tongue against man or beast, that you may know that the LORD makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel.’ All these your servants will come down to me and bow down to me, saying, ‘Get out, you and all the people that are at your feet!’ and after that I will go out.” And he went out from Pharaoh in great anger…

…And it came to pass at midnight that the LORD struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the house of the cistern, and all the firstborn of the beasts. Pharaoh arose in the night, along with all his servants and all of Egypt, and there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was no house in which there was not someone dead.

It would seem that the reference would be limited to houses that actually had firstborn people or animals, rather than being literally true. In a society in which households might include more than one generation of humans and animals, however, the presence of a firstborn human or animal would be the rule rather than the exception.

We need to see that it is first of all confined to first-born males. The nouns ‘firstborn’ in the plague-promise are masculine in the Hebrew (bekor) as well as in the Greek Septuagint (prōtotokos). This would eliminate households in which households in which the firstborns were female and households in which there are no surviving male firstborn children.

We are not given an age limit nor are any ages specified in the Bible, however some believe that the plagues were limited to those which were then classified as “children”, i.e. firstborn “adult” males would be exempt. Some, meanwhile, have suggested that “firstborn” may have referred to the higher social class of Egyptians rather than literally referring to the eldest sons. But this IMO is an inadequate explanation.

 

[willow_jones]

The Exodus: Did It really happen? There is little, if any, archaeological evidence for it. Therefore, many non-evangelical scholars do not believe it occurred. Even if the Egyptians did obliterate evidence of the cataclysms, surely, these scholars say, we should find some evidence.

The best approach is to wait and see. An argument from silence will be destroyed with the first trace of evidence. And then there might be evidence when one looks for it at the proper time in history. If the Exodus occurred 150 years earlier than most scholars think it did (at the Biblical date of ca 1440 BC)

 

[Peter_Dawson]

The Exodus: Did It really happen? There is little, if any, archaeological evidence for it. Therefore, many non-evangelical scholars do not believe it occurred. Even if the Egyptians did obliterate evidence of the cataclysms, surely, these scholars say, we should find some evidence.

The best approach is to wait and see. An argument from silence will be destroyed with the first trace of evidence. And then there might be evidence when one looks for it at the proper time in history. If the Exodus occurred 150 years earlier than most scholars think it did (at the Biblical date of ca 1440 BC)

The Ipuwer Papyrus seems to describe the era of the plagues somewhat.

ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/838

 

[puzzleannie]

too many experts here but I will add one speculation, that just as the blood sacrifice of animals, (those common as livestock then, as now, in that part of the world,) as Moses commanded, had to precede and foreshadow the blood sacrifice of Christ, the “firstborn” and only Son of God, so did the plagues attacking livestock have to precede the final plague against the firstborn children of of the Egyptians themselves, echoing Pharoah’s own action against the Hebrews.