Issues I'm running in to

[dsmantz]

I’m well on my way (after years of study) to being confirmed in the Catholic Church this Easter. I couldn’t be happier, and I’m extremely excited. But, an issue I seem to be running in to quite a bit is the almost anger and hatred to the Protestant denominations as a whole. Now, please don’t get me wrong, I’m not speaking of anyone in particular on this forum, but those I’ve encountered in a few parishes I’ve visited as well as the one I regularly attend.

Now, for years I studied to become a United Methodist Deacon, and immersed myself in Protestant theology, mainly that with an Arianist slant and John Wesley (why wouldn’t I?). But yet, every time I mention to someone (especially those around late 40’s early 50’s) that I have a deep understanding of such, I’m treated almost as if I were a leper. I’ve done everything I can to learn Catholic theology and teaching, reading papal writings, Catholic apologetic books and the ECF. I have regular meetings with the parish priest, and we usually delve into discussions lasting for hours on theology.

I don’t understand the behavior towards Protestants. Yes, there are some from the Fundamentalist camp who go out of their way to attack Catholics and Catholic doctrine, but there are also those who are perfectly happy to live side by side with their Catholic Christian brethren and enjoy peace. However, I seem to run into almost a fear of anything Protestant. Many who refuse to read anything by a Protestant or Non Denominational writer, such as Max Lucado. Granted, he’s a pastor for the Church of Christ, but most of his writings are baby steps. They deal with the VERY basics of the Christian faith, and rarely, if ever, straying from anything that could be considered contrary to Catholic teaching.

Once again, yes, you will find this in the P-Camp as well, but that certainly doesn’t mean that we, as Catholic Christians, should follow in the same steps. We are called to show the love of Christ in everything we do. We should also do what we can inform and teach, but should we condemn? Can we not be peaceful side by side, and eventually lead those to the true faith?

Please, someone help me understand this. Because as devout as they see themselves, they lead others away from the faith. Essentially, “If it’s not Catholic, I’m not touching it.”

 

[Trishie]

Is it hate or is it defensiveness?
I don’t personally find anti-Protestantism in my present parish or in any Catholic parish I’ve been during the decades.
I’m sorry you have encountered such apparent hostility.

God’s kind blessings to you.

 

[Church_Militant]

There are some Catholics who detest Protestants in the same way that some Protestants detest us Catholics. Get used to it…it’s a human failing, and we’re all human.

It doesn’t excuse it…but it explains it to some degree.

I’ve been on the raw end of that from n-Cs/a-Cs sometimes but I just deal with each person as I find them. .

Keep in mind that, like me, you bring a somewhat unique understanding of n-Cs to the mix which can be very handy in evangelism and apologetics.

Don’t let it distress you. It seems like you have a good pastor so follow his lead.
God’s peace,

 

[Windfish]

Hate and anger is DEFINITELY inappropriate. I mean, I rib Protestant beliefs occasionally, but I do not think it ever gets to the point of hate and anger. And as far as other Catholics I have met, it’s rare to really get them to talk about anything religious, let alone Protestantism.

I don’t know what to tell you about your case, brother. If it ever gets out of line, you should try to engage them in a friendly way. Use humor.

 

[Nita]

Like Trishie, I have rarely bumped into much, if any, anti Protestantism in the parishes I’ve been in – and we’ve been in quite a few over the years with our various moves. I’ve always found a lot of tolerance towards other religions among Catholics. Sometimes too much!! I have actually heard more indifferentism expressed by Catholics than anti-Protestantism.

What I have found is that many Catholic parishioners aren’t that interested in religious reading or study - of Catholicism or other faiths. I don’t mean they are not good Catholics; they’re just not studious. Being Catholic for them consists in trying to live in accord with what Jesus commanded. So, my guess is that when they decide to read/study a bit, they may prefer to spend the time reading material that they know conforms and informs them about their own faith.

 

[1ke]

I think you may be misinterpreting people’s reaction. You are interpreting it as “fear” or “hatred.”

If it ain’t Catholic, I’m not touching it can have an entirely different reason behind it. I’ll give you mine:

(a) If it isn’t Catholic it will inevitably contain **some **error. For the very well educated in their faith, this is a waste of time and for the not-very-educated in their faith this is a dangerous practice. I can’t tell you how many Catholics I know who have been led astray by various popular Protestant books-- the Jabaz book from a while back, the Purpose Driven book, Left Behind, and even the horrible Da Vinci books and worse, Joel Osteen. Blech. Now, classic, orthodox books such as Lewis and Chesterton… that’s another matter. But, also, a little bit more cerebral than the average Catholic might be interested in.

(b) I became Catholic at age 25, and 19 years later even after reading *extensively *in all sorts of Catholic fields, I’ve barely scratched the surface. Whey on earth would I read Max Lucado when I still have so many Catholic books I haven’t read? I will be reading Catholic theology books, papal documents, and books by and about Saints until the day I die. I have no time and no desire to read Max Lucado or anyone else. Nor to watch tv shows of protestant pastors.

(c) Most Catholics have no need, time, and no desire for comparative studies. Unless one is going to be doing serious apologetics or work at the university level, it just flatly isn’t of interest to the average Catholic. Apologetics may seem super popular based on the number of people posting here, but IRL it’s not really that mainstream. Most Catholics are just trying to live their daily lives, raise their kids, and such.

None of this stems from a fear or a hatred of protestants. I was one for 25 years, and I’m thankful for the wonderful people who formed me in my early years in the faith.

So, take a step back and just realize everyone else isn’t as “into it” as you are, and that’s OK.

 

[dsmantz]

I think you may be misinterpreting people’s reaction. You are interpreting it as “fear” or “hatred.”

If it ain’t Catholic, I’m not touching it can have an entirely different reason behind it. I’ll give you mine:

(a) If it isn’t Catholic it will inevitably contain **some **error. For the very well educated in their faith, this is a waste of time and for the not-very-educated in their faith this is a dangerous practice. I can’t tell you how many Catholics I know who have been led astray by various popular Protestant books-- the Jabaz book from a while back, the Purpose Driven book, Left Behind, and even the horrible Da Vinci books and worse, Joel Osteen. Blech. Now, classic, orthodox books such as Lewis and Chesterton… that’s another matter. But, also, a little bit more cerebral than the average Catholic might be interested in.

(b) I became Catholic at age 25, and 19 years later even after reading *extensively *in all sorts of Catholic fields, I’ve barely scratched the surface. Whey on earth would I read Max Lucado when I still have so many Catholic books I haven’t read? I will be reading Catholic theology books, papal documents, and books by and about Saints until the day I die. I have no time and no desire to read Max Lucado or anyone else. Nor to watch tv shows of protestant pastors.

(c) Most Catholics have no need, time, and no desire for comparative studies. Unless one is going to be doing serious apologetics or work at the university level, it just flatly isn’t of interest to the average Catholic. Apologetics may seem super popular based on the number of people posting here, but IRL it’s not really that mainstream. Most Catholics are just trying to live their daily lives, raise their kids, and such.

None of this stems from a fear or a hatred of protestants. I was one for 25 years, and I’m thankful for the wonderful people who formed me in my early years in the faith.

So, take a step back and just realize everyone else isn’t as “into it” as you are, and that’s OK.

Good reply from one side, but unfortunately, this isn’t what I’ve been encountering. As I said, what I’ve encountered is an extreme dislike for anything non Catholic, and for the life of me, I can’t understand it. Most who possess such ideas happen to be those considered to be devout and good examples. Pray the rosary daily, attend daily mass, help out throughout the parish, have some sort of religious orders, but still the attitude remains.

I suppose I’ll have to take my dislike for such attitudes and lift it up for the poor souls in purgatory.

 

[Cable]

Good reply from one side, but unfortunately, this isn’t what I’ve been encountering. As I said, what I’ve encountered is an extreme dislike for anything non Catholic, and for the life of me, I can’t understand it. Most who possess such ideas happen to be those considered to be devout and good examples. Pray the rosary daily, attend daily mass, help out throughout the parish, have some sort of religious orders, but still the attitude remains.

I suppose I’ll have to take my dislike for such attitudes and lift it up for the poor souls in purgatory.

Good idea. As Bishop Sheen used to say, “there’s nothing worse than wasted suffering.”

Btw, why don’t you just ask them. They probably had some negative experience.

Congrats on your upcoming Confirmation and all.

 

[DavidFilmer]

But, an issue I seem to be running in to quite a bit is the almost anger and hatred to the Protestant denominations as a whole.

The first protestants (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, et al) were Catholic heretics (meaning they were all Catholics who repudiated the teaching of the Catholic Church). Luther was probably the most influential of these early protestant fathers (being himself an Augustinian priest and theologian).

For centuries, the Church referred to all protestants as heretics. However, the wisdom of this label was called into question at the Second Vatican Council - surely the early protestant fathers (and those Catholics who followed them) were heretics, but could their great-great-great-great grandchildren share that distinction? Vatican II changed the pastoral stance of the Church regarding the spiritual descendants of protestants, using more friendly language such as “separated brethren.” However, there is still a great deal of animosity present on both sides, especially among older Catholics and protestants (those who remember pre-V2 days).

Many who refuse to read anything by a Protestant or Non Denominational writer

Well, what to read? There’s Josh McDowell, who is a complete nutjob. And there’s C.S. Lewis - of whom I have never read anything negative in this forum (and “Mere Christianity” often makes anyone’s survey of the top ten books of Christianity - including mine).

Most Catholic laypeople are not interested in researching protestant authors to find out which are nutjobs and which are unoffensive. Thus, they confine their reading to Catholic authors. Unfortunately, in our times, there are plenty of Catholic nutjobs out there as well.

We should also do what we can inform and teach, but should we condemn?

I don’t think that ignoring the writings of protestant authors is the same as condemning them. There are books that would fill many libraries by both protestants and Catholics. Nobody can read them all. Why should a Catholic not prefer Catholic authors? Does this “condemn” protestant authors? Most laypeople read to be edified, not conflicted. A Catholic layperson might read Calvin’s *Institutes *and determine that infant Baptism is absolutely valid, and then read Jimmy Swaggart and find that it is absolutely invalid. There is no doctrinal consensus among protestants. Which one is correct? The cannot both be correct.

 

[FightingFat]

We are called to show the love of Christ in everything we do. We should also do what we can inform and teach, but should we condemn? Can we not be peaceful side by side, and eventually lead those to the true faith?

Please, someone help me understand this. Because as devout as they see themselves, they lead others away from the faith. Essentially, “If it’s not Catholic, I’m not touching it.”

Beautiful words, I agree, and whenever I meet someone with faith, I revel in their company and the sharing of the Holy Spirit that inevitably takes place when you talk excitedly about faith!

I do understand though, the damage done by detractors and have seen some vicious attacks on the Church by other Christians. I guess when you’ve experienced pain like that you get defensive?

 

[thirddec]

This is just another form of **spiritual attack **by satan who would try to find any way of taking your mind away from the loving Christ. We are all brothers in Christ.

Pray for the Holy Spirit to fill you with wisdom and compassion and to help you act ; speak and live in such a way to be a good ambassador for our church to all

As always can I recommend the ROSARY.

 

[dsmantz]

The first protestants (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, et al) were Catholic heretics (meaning they were all Catholics who repudiated the teaching of the Catholic Church). Luther was probably the most influential of these early protestant fathers (being himself an Augustinian priest and theologian).

For centuries, the Church referred to all protestants as heretics. However, the wisdom of this label was called into question at the Second Vatican Council - surely the early protestant fathers (and those Catholics who followed them) were heretics, but could their great-great-great-great grandchildren share that distinction? Vatican II changed the pastoral stance of the Church regarding the spiritual descendants of protestants, using more friendly language such as “separated brethren.” However, there is still a great deal of animosity present on both sides, especially among older Catholics and protestants (those who remember pre-V2 days).

Well, what to read? There’s Josh McDowell, who is a complete nutjob. And there’s C.S. Lewis - of whom I have never read anything negative in this forum (and “Mere Christianity” often makes anyone’s survey of the top ten books of Christianity - including mine).

Most Catholic laypeople are not interested in researching protestant authors to find out which are nutjobs and which are unoffensive. Thus, they confine their reading to Catholic authors. Unfortunately, in our times, there are plenty of Catholic nutjobs out there as well.

I don’t think that ignoring the writings of protestant authors is the same as condemning them. There are books that would fill many libraries by both protestants and Catholics. Nobody can read them all. Why should a Catholic not prefer Catholic authors? Does this “condemn” protestant authors? Most laypeople read to be edified, not conflicted. A Catholic layperson might read Calvin’s *Institutes *and determine that infant Baptism is absolutely valid, and then read Jimmy Swaggart and find that it is absolutely invalid. There is no doctrinal consensus among protestants. Which one is correct? The cannot both be correct.

Right, which brings us in to the full understanding. Can one, who knows nothing of the Catholic faith, be determined a heretic if Baptist theology is all he has ever known or heard through no fault of his own. I understand this idea, and love it.

I used the books thing as an example. It was just off the top of my head of something that had happened earlier in the night, so please don’t misunderstand me as saying their actions that I’ve perceived come solely from refusing to read a certain author.

Another example would be I’ve been confronted that my co-leading a Celebrate Recovery group isn’t right, and I should stop because it’s not Catholic. After about an hour of explanation saying “Yes, it comes from Saddleback Church where Rick Warren is the senior pastor, but we’re not dealing with Purpose Driven Life stuff here. We’re talking baby steps into the faith while working the 12 steps with a Christian twist.” The bottom line of the matter is, CR has a very high success rate of not only keeping people clean and off the streets, but bringing people to Christ as well. I have no doubt that a few will choose to join the Catholic faith after we’re through crawling.

Now, I’m aware most laity aren’t aware in in-depth theology, be it Catholic or otherwise, but those that are, and choose to speak out against Protestantism should have a firm understanding of what they’re speaking out against. I don’t say I don’t like Fords because I drive a Chevy. I have to have reasons for my conclusion. How is one to be expected to not only explain the Catholic faith in a way that a Protestant can understand as well as (lovingly and with patience) point out the flaws in their doctrine.

I’m not speaking of your average everyday layperson, such as my wife. I’m speaking of those who’ve I’ve encountered that will put down anything non-Catholic without a second thought, a valid reason why, or any understanding on the subject matter. This is what’s getting to me. Not those who say “I need to learn about this first.”, or who simply have no desire to go any further. My issue is with those who choose to speak out without any sort of basis as to the subject.

 

[Della]

First of all, welcome home to the Catholic Faith!

I think some of the hostility towards n-Cs you are encountering come from people who have lost a loved one to some non-denominational church or who have been pestered on their own doorsteps about what they believe by well-meaning but annoying door-to-door evangelizing or who have someone they work with who is a-C or who is proselytizing them, etc. It’s from real life experiences such as these that Catholics come away with a bad feeling towards n-Cs. There are a lot of aggressive types who badger Catholics and accuse the Church of all sorts of things or who have to bring up the priest scandal at every family gathering, etc. It gets tiresome for them, so I’d cut these good folks a bit of slack. Having once been a rabid a-C who went after Catholics with a vengeance (God forgive me! ) I can understand their feelings. I’m not saying people of faith shouldn’t try to love each other, we should, of course, I’m just saying I can understand where some of these folks are coming from.

 

[djrakowski]

I don’t understand the behavior towards Protestants. Yes, there are some from the Fundamentalist camp who go out of their way to attack Catholics and Catholic doctrine, but there are also those who are perfectly happy to live side by side with their Catholic Christian brethren and enjoy peace. However, I seem to run into almost a fear of anything Protestant. Many who refuse to read anything by a Protestant or Non Denominational writer, such as Max Lucado. Granted, he’s a pastor for the Church of Christ, but most of his writings are baby steps. They deal with the VERY basics of the Christian faith, and rarely, if ever, straying from anything that could be considered contrary to Catholic teaching.

First of all, welcome to CAF, and congratulations on your decision to at least consider conversion to the Catholic Church!

I would like to address the passage I highlighted in your original post. I’m a convert from evangelical Protestantism, and was received into the Church in September 2006. I’m one of those Catholics who refuses, except for the sake of comparison (usually to highlight differences in theology in comparison to Catholicism) to read anything not written by Catholics, or at least those who are reasonably close to Catholicism.

I can’t imagine anything in non-Catholic religious and/or spiritual writings that I could learn that I couldn’t also learn, and without error, from Catholic writings. Thus, it would be a waste of time for me to read from non-Catholic sources when there are perfectly good Catholic sources available.

That isn’t to say that there aren’t perfectly awful Catholic writings available as well - regrettably, there are quite a few of them!

We homeschool our 9-year old daughter, and several of her friends (all Catholic, from our rather faithful and traditional parish) have enrolled in a Protestant-based supplemental education program called The Masters Academy of Fine Arts. Our daughter begs us to allow her to attend MAFA with her friends, but we flatly refuse. And next year, MAFA is focusing on the Reformation, which means that our friends will have to either un-teach everything learned in class the second their children return home, or withdraw them from the program entirely. The decision about whether to attend MAFA next year is quite easy - but what else are they being taught at MAFA that may undermine their faith in more subtle ways that their parents, who may not (or may, to be fair) have the formation necessary to combat the errors taught to their children?

I’m not interested in facing such problems, so I take great pains to avoid putting our children (and my wife and myself, for that matter) in such situations.

It doesn’t mean that I believe Protestants are uniformly bad, or that their theological positions are entirely erroneous and heretical. It’s just that I have access to the fullness of the Christian faith, and can find no reason why I’d need to study anything that contains less than that

 

[Mintaka]

If you can get some statements or reviews from, say, Catholic bishops or reputable theologians that the program is fine, Catholics will be more likely to believe that a Protestant program is good. Because I could be wrong or you could be wrong, but a bunch of Catholics with authority and knowledge are not likely to be wrong. If somebody just hands you something not officially approved, Catholics are supposed to treat it with suspicion until proved otherwise.

(Of course, a lot of people in authority have messed with this trust over the last forty years or so, which is why I say ‘reputable’.)

The old guideline used to be that you didn’t even start to read any kind of Christian religious publication unless it had an imprimatur or a nihil obstat on the back of the title page… I never saw the point of that, until I got on the Internet. I can’t tell you how many pages would claim to be Catholic, and then turn out to be some kind of anti-Catholic guy.

It doesn’t have to be that severe, but yeah, bad teaching can mess you up. You’ll notice that, in C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity book, he took pains to say in the foreword that he’d had a Catholic priest vet what he said.

And yes, the reason is that there are a lot of gotchas and misleading material out there, even from people trying to be honest and sincere. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen “the basics of Christianity” turn out to be something very denominational. (Man, I’m having flashbacks now to that “nondenominational” Bible study back in college… the horror!)

Anyway, here’s the recap. You’ll want to do your homework not just on the program or the book, but you’ll want to get recommendations from Catholic publications or authorities. It’s like Missouri being the Show-Me State; Catholics are Show-Me it’s been okayed.