Issues other than abortion

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Vonsalza said:
False equivalence, much?
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The women is killing something and she is in control of it so it does bear resemblance, but that’s a red herring. The point was if banning those actions are totalitarian and the US is doing something wrong because of that.
 
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No you were talking about rights when you said she can choose. I was talking about what you mean by personhood being progressive.
 
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Allowing choice is a move toward liberty.

Restricting free choice is a move toward totalitarianism.

I understand this is difficult to accept because we normally like to say we’re against totalitarianism. But by forcing women to do what you think they should with their bodies, you give history’s despots a fair run.
 
You’re unaware of a person obtaining greater rights and privileges as they get older? Cars? Voting? Guns? Beer?
 
No because murder restricts the freedom of extant people.

Whether the fetus is a person is an opinion rather than a fact. An opinion, thank God, we currently empower mothers to decide.
 
Vonsalza said:
The safe side is to be pro-choice.
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So reckless driving and mowing people down is just a choice. Interesting.

This should be no surprise. Democrats were also pro-choice on slavery. After all, there was no proof that black people were equal other humans, as went the argument at the time.
 
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There’s greater freedom if murder is against the law because you cannot restrict the agency of other people.

You have to face it, being pro choice is the better policy.

It’s like having a military. It’s an available solution, but you work to never have to use it.

Abortion is about as rare now as it’s ever been, luckily
 
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Vonsalza said:
There’s greater freedom if murder is against the law because you cannot restrict the agency of other people.
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Except the law is restraining people’s agency and it’s still totalitarian and has hints of special pleading.
 
Aquinas11 said:
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Vonsalza:
A developing fetus literally had no agency. I’ve had 3 kids. It takes them a few months after birth before they develop anything approaching agency.
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So per that logic, it would be ok for someone go into a hospital and pull life support on all patients who have no cognitive function. Total insanity
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Killing people in their sleep is also on the table. But at least, through all the slogans, this is the real question. In the end, the definition of “human” is what is at stake. Since taking a human life is so serious, I do not understand why the law errs on the side of caution for all who are born, and throws caution to the wind on those not born.

I really wish you wouldn’t “thank God” for abortion choice. I do not think you understand how odious, distasteful, and rude it is in this context, were posters are asked to show respect for what Catholics believe. Please stop the blasphemy.
 
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Vonsalza said:
When they’re born they have some additional rights. They get a few more when they become teenagers. A few more when 18. A few more when 21. They can run for president at 35.

The Romans had a similar scheme. I think you were considered a Man at the Table when you turned 23.
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These rights are accorded by the state. Do you consider the state to be the sole arbiter of rights?
 
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Vonsalza said:
While the baby is inside its mother, it is dependent on her for survival.

We pro-choicers simply argue that she doesn’t intrinsically owe this to the child. If she doesn’t want the child, she shouldn’t be forced to have it.

The baby may or may not bear agency/personhood - but mama most certainly does. So she gets to choose. Anything other is a violation of liberty.

She is, indeed, more a “person” than the fetus is.
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Could we argue from this that the strong with their relative agency may choose to dismiss the weak?
 
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