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VanitasVanitatum
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Banning abortion isn’t the problem, but having corrupt people in the government is.
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MamaJewel
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True. Elective abortion is legal.
But how is it legal? What is the mechanism that makes it legal? The woman’s right to privacy, autonomy, and bodily integrity.
Elective abortion is legal because a woman has the right of privacy between her an her doctor, the right to informed consent, the right to self-determination, self-governance, and the right to have her body intact without the interference (intrusion) of the government or another human being.
A state that can over-ride these rights with a ban on abortion , can later turn around and make laws that provide for forced abortion, since the deciding factor(s) on abortion won’t consider the woman’s right to privacy, autonomy, and bodily integrity. It will be about what the state wants for a woman, not what she deems to be best for herself.
Heck, women could even be legally compelled to get pregnant, depending upon how the language of a new statute banning abortion was written.
I hate abortion. It literally sucks. But people must have the right to bodily autonomy if we want to live in a free society. I’ll say it again: Right to Life and Right to Bodily Autonomy/Integrity are inseparable
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Gingersnaps4
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Abortion up until birth being considered acceptable is a hallmark of a barbaric, degenerate society. No one can support that and be a Christian. A person can label themselves as one, but they aren’t. The same goes for anyone not supporting the Born Alive act. That reminds me of the Incas and Aztecs. Seems like we will be more like those societies, soon. Some progress!
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goout
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That would be a funny pun if real human beings weren’t being killed.
The argument to absolute bodily autonomy is not an argument, it’s an assertion. It’s an appeal to arbitrary power. It’s more like a whine than an argument.
“It’s my body and I’ll do what I want”.
It subjects human beings to the whims of another.
It victimizes the defenseless. It exalts power at the expense of humanity. It’s barbaric, and a society that champions the rights of one human being at the expense of another’s innocent life is a barbaric society. As @Gingersnaps4 noted above.
The fact that pro aborts abandon reason in favor of naked appeals to power betrays an empty philosophy. When reason has failed you, you accuse the child of being an invader who is threatening the autonomous well being (such gobbledygook) of the mother. That is truly antithetical to Christianity.
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Sbee0
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A law banning abortion would not be sufficient. Then there would be illegal abortions. History has shown that. There must be a place to support and care for desperate pregnant women (especially young women) in need so they don’t feel like abortion is the only way out.VanitasVanitatum:
True. Elective abortion is legal.
But how is it legal? What is the mechanism that makes it legal? The woman’s right to privacy, autonomy, and bodily integrity.
Elective abortion is legal because a woman has the right of privacy between her an her doctor, the right to informed consent, the right to self-determination, self-governance, and the right to have her body intact without the interference (intrusion) of the government or another human being.
A state that can over-ride these rights with a ban on abortion , can later turn around and make laws that provide for forced abortion, since the deciding factor(s) on abortion won’t consider the woman’s right to privacy, autonomy, and bodily integrity. It will be about what the state wants for a woman, not what she deems to be best for herself.
Heck, women could even be legally compelled to get pregnant, depending upon how the language of a new statute banning abortion was written.
I hate abortion. It literally sucks. But people must have the right to bodily autonomy if we want to live in a free society. I’ll say it again: Right to Life and Right to Bodily Autonomy/Integrity are inseparable
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goout
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Where I come from, sidewalk counselors are trained to offer practical options. Many women would not like to have an abortion and an offer of financial assistance may provide an escape for the woman. The pro-life community does a lot of practical assistance for single mothers especially. And there is a good epidemic of adoption where I live. We have two neighbors, young couples, one couple has adopted 2 young children from overseas, the other has adopted 3. Our deacon raised 2 adopted children. Our parish has taken a domestic violence shelter as a ministry. Many pregnant women seek shelter there, and frequently they have other children.MamaJewel:
A law banning abortion would not be sufficient. Then there would be illegal abortions. History has shown that. There must be a place to support and care for desperate pregnant women (especially young women) in need so they don’t feel like abortion is the only way out.VanitasVanitatum:
True. Elective abortion is legal.
But how is it legal? What is the mechanism that makes it legal? The woman’s right to privacy, autonomy, and bodily integrity.
Elective abortion is legal because a woman has the right of privacy between her an her doctor, the right to informed consent, the right to self-determination, self-governance, and the right to have her body intact without the interference (intrusion) of the government or another human being.
A state that can over-ride these rights with a ban on abortion , can later turn around and make laws that provide for forced abortion, since the deciding factor(s) on abortion won’t consider the woman’s right to privacy, autonomy, and bodily integrity. It will be about what the state wants for a woman, not what she deems to be best for herself.
Heck, women could even be legally compelled to get pregnant, depending upon how the language of a new statute banning abortion was written.
I hate abortion. It literally sucks. But people must have the right to bodily autonomy if we want to live in a free society. I’ll say it again: Right to Life and Right to Bodily Autonomy/Integrity are inseparable
Of course, while people are trying to save lives on the thin strip of sidewalk, abortion clinic assistants wear bright colors, crank loud pop music, and do a little happy dance.
It’s just sick.
And you have to think this is what Calvary must have been like, with mind numbed workers going about their hideous duty, hiding the barbarity of it all with indifferent and fake laughter.
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goout
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@YourNameHere
I hope it’s been demonstrated to you that talk about human rights is meaningless if the right to live is not respected. Without respect for human life, none of the rest matters. Should be obvious, but our “senseless minds are darkened”.
It’s no accident that in a country where 50+ million children have been murdered, we have rampant and arbitrary violence of all kinds.
We have a lot of people jumping on the “my autonomy” ship and sailing away into insanity.
"It’s my life, and my prerogative, to take out my grievances on crowds of people with a rifle. "
“It’s my right to go into my school and kill others. After all, I’ve been wronged!”
Our cultural barbarism is not a bewildering accident, it’s the poison fruit of this perverse subjectivism. We’ve chosen our culture piece by piece.
I hope it’s been demonstrated to you that talk about human rights is meaningless if the right to live is not respected. Without respect for human life, none of the rest matters. Should be obvious, but our “senseless minds are darkened”.
It’s no accident that in a country where 50+ million children have been murdered, we have rampant and arbitrary violence of all kinds.
We have a lot of people jumping on the “my autonomy” ship and sailing away into insanity.
"It’s my life, and my prerogative, to take out my grievances on crowds of people with a rifle. "
“It’s my right to go into my school and kill others. After all, I’ve been wronged!”
Our cultural barbarism is not a bewildering accident, it’s the poison fruit of this perverse subjectivism. We’ve chosen our culture piece by piece.
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JimG
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So here we have the heart of the pro-abortion argument. Women must be free to engage in sexual intercourse without becoming pregnant, without having babies. If contraception fails or is not used, a woman must be able to kill the child if she chooses. Her choice. Life or death. Choice reigns supreme. If one exchanges marriage vows for life one may choose to break them. Of course this is a return to barbarism but it is our choice. Once killing is enshrined as an acceptable choice, the chances for survival of a civilization are greatly diminished. But–it’s our choice!
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Vonsalza
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You’ve done about as much to negatively color it as you can, but that’s about right.
She must be free. No slaves, here.
If she doesn’t want to be pregnant, she doesn’t have to be.
If she doesn’t want to stick with that no-good man, she doesn’t have to.
Honestly, it’s a little sickening that people actually have to defend this stuff from you guys… If you want a Catholic Theocratic state, go pool your money and start one somewhere. Unfortunately for you, the US has declared that there will be no state Church. And to be frank, Catholicism had much to do with that. The Christian pluralism is the US was, for the most part, due to folks fleeing all the European wars of religion.
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Vonsalza
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Our “cultural barbarism” exists because you don’t have any good secular arguments against it and in a fit of frustration you resort to name calling.
Other folks refer to the “cultural barbarism” as plain Jane common sense.
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Sbee0
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Just wanted to say love the straw manJimG:
You’ve done about as much to negatively color it as you can, but that’s about right.
She must be free. No slaves, here.
If she doesn’t want to be pregnant, she doesn’t have to be.
If she doesn’t want to stick with that no-good man, she doesn’t have to.
Honestly, it’s a little sickening that people actually have to defend this stuff from you guys… If you want a Catholic Theocratic state, go pool your money and start one somewhere. Unfortunately for you, the US has declared that there will be no state Church. And to be frank, Catholicism had much to do with that. The Christian pluralism is the US was, for the most part, due to folks fleeing all the European wars of religion.
LOL. Carry on.
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Vonsalza
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Based on your previous demonstrations, it can be pretty safely assumed that you don’t know what you’re talking about roughly 90% of the time when it comes to rhetoric.Just wanted to say love the straw man
Even here, you claim “straw man”. Ok, so what argument did I misrepresent?
Per usual, it seems that you’re not really as familiar with the material as you think you are…
But I love the confidence. As Trump shows us, a confident buffoon can still go far in America.
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Sbee0
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The heart of the abortion argument is the fundamental error that an unborn child is not a human being, just part of the woman’s body like any other cells, thus there are no moral qualms about removing if they so desire, for any reason at all. Which would make sense if an unborn child really isn’t a human being. Which is false.
We’ve seen this argument in this topic and in many other places. It’s wrong everywhere of course.
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Sbee0
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Aaaand back to the ad hominem attacks.Sbee0:
Based on your previous demonstrations, it can be pretty safely assumed that you don’t know what you’re talking about roughly 90% of the time when it comes to rhetoric.Just wanted to say love the straw man
Even here, you claim “straw man”. Ok, so what argument did I misrepresent?
Per usual, it seems that you’re not really as familiar with the material as you think you are…
But I love the confidence. As Trump shows us, a confident buffoon can still go far in America.
That’s how I know youve got absolutely nothing. Debating 101.Your straw man of course is your notion that we Catholics want a Catholic or Christian state when the truth is none do. Typical atheist tripe which is best laughed at honestly.
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Vonsalza
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Per your dazzling usual, you are incorrect. Like, wildly.
First, it’s not the “pro-abortion” argument. It’s the “pro-choice” argument. You should probably get that straight as simply a matter of fact… We’re trying to empower the woman, not abortion.
Second, most pro-choicers don’t completely deny the personhood of the fetus. We just believe that the personhood of the mother trumps it. He choice over it reigns supreme until that baby is born. After that, it’s no longer dependant upon her body. That fundamental control is gone.
And this is a pretty good representative critique of the glaring flaw of the pro-life view in a free society - it makes no consideration for the woman. It enslaves her to her fetus in a totalitarian display of switching the horse and cart.
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Sbee0
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There’s plenty wrong in the above post of course, especially the last part which shows a fundamental and in most cases willful misunderstanding of what it actually means to be pro life.Sbee0:
Per your dazzling usual, you are incorrect. Like, wildly.
First, it’s not the “pro-abortion” argument. It’s the “pro-choice” argument. You should probably get that straight as simply a matter of fact… We’re trying to empower the woman, not abortion.
Second, most pro-choicers don’t completely deny the personhood of the fetus. We just believe that the personhood of the mother trumps it. He choice over it reigns supreme until that baby is born. After that, it’s no longer dependant upon her body. That fundamental control is gone.
And this is a pretty good representative critique of the glaring flaw of the pro-life view in a free society - it makes no consideration for the woman. It enslaves her to her fetus in a totalitarian display of switching the horse and cart.
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Vonsalza
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Oh? So you guys aren’t trying to make pregnant women have their babies?
Please, elucidate!
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JimG
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While this is often the case, it is not always. Many on the pro-choice side freely admit that the new embryo is indeed a unique and distinct human being, but it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter because this new human being is a block to the mother’s autonomy, so she MUST have a right to kill the unborn child, thereby restoring her autonomy.
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goout
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You have nothing resembling common sense on your side.goout:
Our “cultural barbarism” exists because you don’t have any good secular arguments against it and in a fit of frustration you resort to name calling.
Other folks refer to the “cultural barbarism” as plain Jane common sense.
You reject established science in favor of juvenile assertions about “bodily autonomy”.
You are on a par with the flat earthers and 6 day creationists. And you now lay a claim to common sense? ok…
Barbarism is claiming the right to kill another human being based on your right to “bodily autonomy”.
Your philosophy is hideous and should be rejected by anyone with a shred of moral sense.
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Vonsalza
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By claiming that a woman has a right to bodily autonomy? If you say so…
For 100s of years women were generally treated as property. Forcing women to undergo pregnancy against their will returns them to that abominable state.
Let us be clear. Most pro-choice folks I know what to give the women her free choice, but then labor to make life as attractive a choice as possible. We will not force her hand.
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