Issues other than abortion

[Vonsalza]

correction, not a non-person, I concede fetuses have some personhood.

But they are fully subservient to their mother’s person.

They’re effectively non-person.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Being inside a woman, using her body, breath and food for your sustenance and lacking your own agency makes an infant a non-person

So why should that be the deciding factor?

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Being inside a woman, using her body, breath and food for your sustenance and lacking your own agency makes an infant a non-person

So why should that be the deciding factor?

Because a woman is fully deserving of self-determination and bodily autonomy just like everyone else.

That’s tough to argue against, isn’t it?

 

[laylow]

Or maybe the uterus is meant for something other than holding a parasite that doesn’t belong there…

Depends on how to define “meant.” To the parasite, it is meant to be there. It cannot survive alternatively. Meaning is subjective to the benefiting party.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Because a woman is fully deserving of self-determination and bodily autonomy just like everyone else.

That’s tough to argue against, isn’t it?

I was talking about personhood.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Because a woman is fully deserving of self-determination and bodily autonomy just like everyone else.

That’s tough to argue against, isn’t it?

I was talking about the personhood of a fetus.

It’s personhood does not exist separate of its mother’s while it’s inside her using her body.

And her personhood supercedes.

 

[laylow]

To save lives. Likewise, if I saw someone in the street trying to murder someone, I’d step in. It would not bother me one whit that I was denying him the right to choose what to do with a knife arm other than my own.

Should people (especially family members) be forced to give up their kidney or other non-vital organs, should another person be dependent on it to survive?

Should people be forced to give up their mansions to feed the poor who will certainly die of malnutrition?

 

[graciew]

She’s no longer sacrificing her body to keep it alive.

I mean this in a friendly way, Vonsalza : you keep writing about this sacrifice of the body and I keep scratching my head.
Do you really mean that somebody fit before pregnancy and eating healthily and exercising regularly before pregnancy will somehow be left a rag forever after pregnancy?
I don t know. It may be a personal experience and I do not want to sound hurtful…

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Should people be forced to pay for other people’s abortions?

 

[laylow]

Because a woman is fully deserving of self-determination and bodily autonomy just like everyone else.

That’s tough to argue against, isn’t it?

Nope, you should be forced to give up your kidney because someone will die without it. /sarc

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

It’s personhood does not exist separate of its mother’s while it’s inside her using her body

Why doesn’t personhood exist?

 

[laylow]

Should people be forced to pay for other people’s abortions?

Forced? No. I didn’t know anyone was proposing doing so.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

I’m glad that’s the case.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

She’s no longer sacrificing her body to keep it alive.

I mean this in a friendly way, Vonsalza : you keep writing about this sacrifice of the body and I keep scratching my head.

Sure
On a light note, if you were to casually poll women, outside of some combative abortion discussion, “Did you pregnancy change your body?” The replies you’d get would be incredulous stares and reply questions like “Is the pope Catholic?”.

On a heavier note, women dramatically increase their chances of fallen breasts, incontinence, vaginal prolapse and other lady-part maladies as a result of having kids.

Even heavier, some still die. Even here in the US.

As such, I’d argue pretty comfortably that pregnancy involves bodily sacrifice on the part of the mother

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

The body of the baby comes out during an abortion and that doesn’t have an effect?

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

It’s personhood does not exist separate of its mother’s while it’s inside her using her body

Why doesn’t personhood exist?

As clarified above, it kinda sorta does, but not in a way that challenges or overrides the personhood of the mother.

 

[Vonsalza]

The body of the baby comes out during an abortion and that doesn’t have an effect?

If done early?

Much much less of an effect, yes. Maybe close to none.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

As clarified above, it kinda sorta does, but not in a way that challenges or overrides the personhood of the mother.

Why is it’s personhood incomplete?

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

As clarified above, it kinda sorta does, but not in a way that challenges or overrides the personhood of the mother.

Why is it’s personhood incomplete?

Because it’s overshadowed by the personhood of the woman carrying it.

And personhood is never “complete”. It’s a progression. A continuum.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

It’s laughable to see all of the anti-science “logic” that pro-choice people use to justify murder. Throwing around terms like personhood which can never be scientifically proven. But if you are a Christian and are familiar with scripture, then you know that God sees us as persons having humanity in the womb. Scripture wouldn’t say. That He knows us before we are born if we weren’t human beings with souls at that point.