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VanitasVanitatum
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So your position is based on laws or logic?
Since laws can be illogical it can’t be both.
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Since laws can be illogical it can’t be both.
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VanitasVanitatum
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I apply it to the fetus. Ironically that’s basically telling me what to do.
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Vonsalza
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Lets.
My wife - 3 kids - great pregnancies - suffers from mild incontinence.
My mom - 7 kids - great pregnancies - suffered from vaginal prolapse. After multiple girdle failures, opted for radical hysterectomy.
My dads mom - 15 kids - suffered from such horrendous prolapse in her later years that her husband never saw her naked again after they had their last child.
Pregnancy. My wife, mom and dad’s mom were all fit women. Never obese at any point in their life. And active.
Hey, I’m with you. But if we were having a moment of brute honesty, after that kid, everything kinda “shifted downward”, right? And not just “the girls” on top.And if it is two sizes up, some exercise and push ups when appropriate gets us back to tha “ cat walk”!
Due to the strain in her arches, my mother in law went up a shoe size with each or her two kids.
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Sbee0
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There’s nothing in scripture to say that rich man justified letting children all over the world die every day, etc. Jesus was also not condemning being wealthy, nor advocating for government to be the best provider of things for people.Sbee0:
Jesus found one pretty easy in Luke 18:laylow:
I bet I wouldn’t be able to find one person identifying as conservative who would justify letting children all over the world die every day, etc.Gingersnaps4:
It’s amazing how Conservatives justify letting children all over the world die everyday, so they can live in their privileged world of nice houses, multiple cars, and abundant food. That is the same as murder to me. And I am not even convinced that most abortions are murder to begin with.
18 A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’[a]”
21 “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.
22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy.
In Jesus’s time wealth was considered a sign of God’s favor. There’s a reason why Jesus told him to do this, and he knew what the answer would be. AN essential part of our love for Christ is to be detached from what we have on earth. As Jesus said these are only temporary. We can’t take these to Heaven.
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laylow
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I’m much for doing everything possible to prevent the need for abortions, not illegalize it. It would be money much better spent. Reduce poverty, make contraceptives available, educate the youth…etc.
The goal must be to reduce the number of abortions; it will never be zero. People will find a way to abort even if it is illegal. This comes with its own set of issues.
Reduce the “need” and there will be much less abortions.
The goal must be to reduce the number of abortions; it will never be zero. People will find a way to abort even if it is illegal. This comes with its own set of issues.
Reduce the “need” and there will be much less abortions.
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Vonsalza
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And as I said before, a devout pro-life argument essentially requires the ignoring or marginalization of the woman involved.Vonsalza:
I apply it to the fetus. Ironically that’s basically telling me what to do.
I refuse to do that.
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laylow
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The historical Jesus was an apocalyptic teacher whom was convinced the world was ending in his lifetime. Part of the reason was that he did not think people needed wealth, because the world was ending soon.
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Gingersnaps4
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What?! See, abortion isn’t a political issue, it’s a moral one. Stop conflating murder with politics. It’s possible to care about children that are already born along with children in the womb!
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graciew
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That is serious, yes…And medical as you said…
Now I understand you better when you speak about body damage.
Indo not know what fosters this in some persons and not on others…who knows…
For example I weigh about 100 pounds since high school . And put on 4.4 pound per month in each pregnancy . Why? Not that I eat more or exercised less. It is a lot. Basically a spaghetti with a big” knot” in my tummy. But after the children were born it quickly disappeared. I would say back to normal in 6 months. Except that you are right, instead of 7 I wore 8 in shoes after some months. I had forgotten that…
I do not know, what it is important to help moms with this medical situations. Very important. And if preventable , better still.
Thank you, Vonsalza for sharing it and I will no longer scratch my head about this!
Now I understand you better when you speak about body damage.
Indo not know what fosters this in some persons and not on others…who knows…
For example I weigh about 100 pounds since high school . And put on 4.4 pound per month in each pregnancy . Why? Not that I eat more or exercised less. It is a lot. Basically a spaghetti with a big” knot” in my tummy. But after the children were born it quickly disappeared. I would say back to normal in 6 months. Except that you are right, instead of 7 I wore 8 in shoes after some months. I had forgotten that…
I do not know, what it is important to help moms with this medical situations. Very important. And if preventable , better still.
Thank you, Vonsalza for sharing it and I will no longer scratch my head about this!
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Vonsalza
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My heart aches for my dad’s mom.
That was a time when there wasn’t anything to do about it (she was born in 1899, my dad was their last and he waited until he was in his 40s to even start having kids and I was among his last, so big gap there).
Just a time in American history where there wasn’t much a country girl in rural Kentucky could do about it…
Really a different time. She had 15 kids, but on the family roles they just record 13 as a set of twins didn’t make it long. Just a different time.
That was a time when there wasn’t anything to do about it (she was born in 1899, my dad was their last and he waited until he was in his 40s to even start having kids and I was among his last, so big gap there).
Just a time in American history where there wasn’t much a country girl in rural Kentucky could do about it…
Really a different time. She had 15 kids, but on the family roles they just record 13 as a set of twins didn’t make it long. Just a different time.
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laylow
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I am not conflating “murder” with politics. The pro-life advocates want to make the woman’s choice illegal. As a comparison, I will ask if suggest that the excess of the privileged be made illegal to save the death of the unprivileged.
In other words, I want to understand why taking the liberty from the mother is OK to prevent the death of the fetus, while contradictory preserving the liberty of the economically privileged, even though it causes the deaths of millions of children that are already born.
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laylow
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This is intelligent design though?
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laylow
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For some mothers, they do die. Others have physical setbacks so bad that they wished they had died. The only opinion that is really significant is with the people directly involved, which is why it is more appropriate not to legally take that choice from them.
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Vonsalza
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Whew, just saw that. They weren’t THAT fit!!! Very well done.
Average to slightly tall women. after kids held 140s. So I guess they wouldn’t be fit to you at all.
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graciew
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Yes…how can it not ache…?
Thanks again for the warmth of sharing your family’ s stories, Vonsalza.
Thanks again for the warmth of sharing your family’ s stories, Vonsalza.
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Gingersnaps4
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Not sure why a woman should have the “liberty” to kill another human being. Every human being has inherent dignity and is a person. And as we see recently in the U.S., it’s a slippery slope to argue about when a human being obtains “personhood” and therefore has the right to live.now suddenly it’s a woman’s “right” to kill an infant that could otherwise be born alive, therefore showing that this group doesn’t care about personhood anyway. As for your argument about extra wealth and caring for people already born, as well as babies in the womb,I would totally entertain that argument and discuss it with you if you actually supported both, but you don’t. It’s just a point you’d like to argue in order to justify killing the unborn.
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Vonsalza
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The answer is that no one has the right to force them to undergo the dangers of pregnancy.
It’s not a zero-risk activity, Ginger. Women in the US, even today, die from it.
Including women. Thus we do not enslave them to our opinions by denying them their agency over their own bodies. We let them choose and pray they choose life.
His intent is likely justifying the freedom of women to choose what to do with their own bodies, Ginger.
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VanitasVanitatum
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Yet you marginalize the fetus. Anyways that’s not the point because you are okay with constraining people’s wills in certain situations. So really this is about whether abortion is one of them.
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VanitasVanitatum
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The fetus always dies whereas those complications don’t always happen so less harm is done without abortion.
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Brendan_64
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Who determines these rights and decides at what stage of ‘personhood’ particular humans are at?
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