It ain't about Trump

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False. There are and were a lot of non-ad-hominem reasons supporting why impeachment would be appropriate. Are you seriously expecting people to believe the false starting point to your discussion? :confused:
Then explain why they want to impeach the vice president, too. What has he done to warrant impeachment?
 
Who is they?
The same people on the left/far left who scream for Trump’s impeachment. They know that if Trump were removed and someone congenial like Mike Pence became president then their chances of winning back the presidency in 2020 would be that much harder.

Remember Sally Khon’s “Straighforward plan to make Hillary president?”

Straightforward from here:
  1. Impeach Trump & Pence
  2. Constitutional crisis
  3. Call special election
  4. Ryan v Clinton
  5. President Clinton
 
The same people on the left/far left who scream for Trump’s impeachment. They know that if Trump were removed and someone congenial like Mike Pence became president then their chances of winning back the presidency in 2020 would be that much harder.

Remember Sally Khon’s “Straighforward plan to make Hillary president?”

Straightforward from here:
  1. Impeach Trump & Pence
  2. Constitutional crisis
  3. Call special election
  4. Ryan v Clinton
  5. President Clinton
Thanks for this one example.
I not only do not remember the tweet, but had never heard of her before your post.
Howerver, I don’t think that she was on the thread that randomuser was talking about.
 
You are right, the article is not about Mr. Trump. The President’s name appears nowhere in the article, not even in referring to his Administration, let alone impeaching him.

This is a piece about the push-back over an anti-gun extremist trying to make political hay by big talk against the nation’s most powerful gun-rights lobby. She is not in any fear that her constituents are going to call for her resignation, since it is probably rhetoric of that nature that put her in office in the first place. (Let’s face it: She didn’t just wake up one morning, burn her NRA card, and go on a Twitter rampage.)

As for also has nothing to do with our security agencies being afraid of the Bible or Christians. Christians are very divided on the issue of guns; that is, unless you are a Christian who dares to define whether or not someone else is a Christian based on their political beliefs regarding guns! Do that, and you of course know what all “real Christians” think about the matter. For the record, however: The NRA is not a Christian organization. It is an organization formed by people with an interest in guns, including but not limited to the right to own them and laws governing the use of them.

Just between you and me, I don’t think the NRA rep had any expectation that this member of Congress was going to resign, either. That was more inflamed “preaching to the choir.”

As for MS-13, it is a complicated mess. It is an international organized crime ring, and a very brutal one. Unfortunately, it could be counter-productive to make illegal immigrants too afraid of US domestic law enforcement agencies, because MS-13 already exploits the hesitation illegal immigrants have to go to the authorities when they are the victims of MS-13 crime. It is kind of like going into a poor neighborhood full of gangs and making everyone who lives there just as afraid of the police as they are of the gangs. All of a sudden, everyone in all the gangs knows that nobody in their neighborhood ever wants to call the police or testify against them. It actually helps the gangs operate with more impunity, rather than weakening them. Law enforcement has to choose their battles, and taking out MS-13 has to be the priority over deporting illegal cleaning ladies.

I think some of the American people have always feared some of the other American people, and this is no exception. Yes, I think the solution is to try as hard as possible not to demonize the opposition. No matter how misguided they are, few Americans actually hate their country or hate liberty or hate everything this nation stands for. They just have very different views of what loving our nation and all it stands for means. We really need to keep that in mind as we formulate our rhetoric, if the wiser heads willing to talk are ever going to get a chance to speak and come to some kind of meeting of the minds.

There are as many firearms in this country as there are people. They are not going away. I think lawmakers like Rep. Rice need to realize that making the law-abiding into law-breaking by giving them no lawful way to own firearms is not going to make the firearms evaporate. It is just going to put more people in a position where they are wary of the law and law enforcement.
 
You are right, the article is not about Mr. Trump. The President’s name appears nowhere in the article, not even in referring to his Administration, let alone impeaching him.

This is a piece about the push-back over an anti-gun extremist trying to make political hay by big talk against the nation’s most powerful gun-rights lobby. She is not in any fear that her constituents are going to call for her resignation, since it is probably rhetoric of that nature that put her in office in the first place. (Let’s face it: She didn’t just wake up one morning, burn her NRA card, and go on a Twitter rampage.)

As for also has nothing to do with our security agencies being afraid of the Bible or Christians. Christians are very divided on the issue of guns; that is, unless you are a Christian who dares to define whether or not someone else is a Christian based on their political beliefs regarding guns! Do that, and you of course know what all “real Christians” think about the matter. For the record, however: The NRA is not a Christian organization. It is an organization formed by people with an interest in guns, including but not limited to the right to own them and laws governing the use of them.

Just between you and me, I don’t think the NRA rep had any expectation that this member of Congress was going to resign, either. That was more inflamed “preaching to the choir.”

As for MS-13, it is a complicated mess. It is an international organized crime ring, and a very brutal one. Unfortunately, it could be counter-productive to make illegal immigrants too afraid of US domestic law enforcement agencies, because MS-13 already exploits the hesitation illegal immigrants have to go to the authorities when they are the victims of MS-13 crime. It is kind of like going into a poor neighborhood full of gangs and making everyone who lives there just as afraid of the police as they are of the gangs. All of a sudden, everyone in all the gangs knows that nobody in their neighborhood ever wants to call the police or testify against them. It actually helps the gangs operate with more impunity, rather than weakening them. Law enforcement has to choose their battles, and taking out MS-13 has to be the priority over deporting illegal cleaning ladies.

I think some of the American people have always feared some of the other American people, and this is no exception. Yes, I think the solution is to try as hard as possible not to demonize the opposition. No matter how misguided they are, few Americans actually hate their country or hate liberty or hate everything this nation stands for. They just have very different views of what loving our nation and all it stands for means. We really need to keep that in mind as we formulate our rhetoric, if the wiser heads willing to talk are ever going to get a chance to speak and come to some kind of meeting of the minds.

There are as many firearms in this country as there are people. They are not going away. I think lawmakers like Rep. Rice need to realize that making the law-abiding into law-breaking by giving them no lawful way to own firearms is not going to make the firearms evaporate. It is just going to put more people in a position where they are wary of the law and law enforcement.
Thanks for your comment.

Just for informations’ sake, Dana Loesch is a conservative radio talk show host and commentator. She also happens to be an NRA board member I guess. I agree she would have no expectation the Congresswoman would resign.
 
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Just for informations’ sake, Dana Loesch is a conservative radio talk show host and commentator. She also happens to be an NRA board member I guess.
She is a spokesperson for the NRA. And her news-making inflammatory remarks provide some context that is woefully lacking in your OP.

theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/05/nra-new-york-times-video-coming-for-threat-dana-loesch

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/01/national-rifle-association-liberal-enemies-dana-loesch

washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/08/11/a-democrat-called-the-nra-a-security-threat-the-backlash-was-swift/?utm_term=.0015825d8d9f
 
“It ain’t about Trump” is an interesting thread topic, and it’s one that I have come more and more to believe. While the personal invective expressed toward Trump supporters in here has thankfully moderated, one might reasonably question whether the invective really has all that much to do with Trump as a person as it does with Trump as a symbol. A symbol of what, then?

Well, we have seen some glimpses of it in the “bitter clingers” comment of Barack Obama and the “deplorables” comment of Hillary Clinton. Its more overt in some of the media coverage; the kind where, e.g., pro-abortion groups are represented by well-dressed and coiffed spokespersons while prolife groups are represented by, e.g., a superannuated nun and perhaps a long-haired and hefty woman in something resembling a prairie dress.

And, of course, we hear frequent repetition, both favorably and unfavorably of the expression “flyover country”. We very, very frequently hear Trump supporters characterized as things like “white, uneducated males from the Rust Belt”. While, indeed, no few “white uneducated males from the Rust Belt” supported Trump, that’s not the only image repeated to characterize his supporters. Now and then, the image of David Duke or (the very rare) Klan members are suggested as representing Trump supporters.

While there really are issues sharply dividing the seeming ideologies of, say, Obama and Trump, I wonder whether the ideologies themselves are really the contending ideas. After all, there are some similarities between the uber-left (for America anyway) Sanders program and that of Trump, just as there are striking similarities between Obama/Clinton affiliations and approaches and those of the “globalist right”.

I recently ran across two very interesting books, both of which I intend to buy. One “accounts for” the rise of the U.S. as a global superpower by describing the central geography of the U.S. and what it meant two centuries ago and what it means now. If one looks at the map of the U.S. clearly showing the rivers and soils, it shows something found essentially nowhere else on earth; a vast area of very rich, temperate soils drained by an immense central river system that, taken together, excludes little useable land other than the east and west coasts. To be sure, similar conditions exist in Europe, but on a much smaller and less connected scale. Imagine Europe if the Danube, Garonne, Loire, Rhone and Po all flowed into the headwaters of the Rhine. Europe and its history would have been much different. Imagine that the Rhine then veered east just before the Netherlands and took in the Oder and Vistula and emptied into the Dnieper. Very, very different still.

The other book is a “revisionist” (or perhaps more accurate) understanding of a literary genre that arose in the early 20th Century and greatly influenced peoples’ understandings and misconceptions about themselves. That genre is represented by such writers as Sinclair Lewis, Sherwood Anderson and F. Scott Fitzgerald. The conventional view is that they represent the “unmasking” of a smug, hypocritical, hide-bound central U.S. (the huge Mississippi drainage area) befouled by boosterism and Babbitry. To that, perhaps one might think of O’Connor and Faulkner in that same way. Those works were taken by so many as glorifying the “smarter”, “more elegant” and “more enlightened” coastal culture in which a certain rootlessness of place and belief were thought to prevail and to be “smarter”.

The author, it appears, posits that the early writers in that genre had the exact opposite intent; to portray a people, tainted by human frailty to be sure, who actually “had it right” in struggling to uphold adherence to timeless principles along with a sense of community and place.

One is very tempted to think of Obama’s characterization of “bitter clingers” as being derived from that misunderstood genre, and that Hillary’s reference to “deplorables” is simply reflective of the accepted moral judgment of those characterizations.

Is it really about Trump, or is it really just a latter-day rebellion by “flyover country” against the disdain and assumed moral and intellectual superiority of those in “cosmopolitan country” who actually rule most of the time and are, most of the time, regarded as having a “right to rule” even by those in the center?

Anyway, it might be beneficial for those (both supporters and opposers) to consider the possibility that the current contention really “…ain’t about Trump” per se. Even saying it’s about “culture” is helpful, but isn’t really quite sufficient. It’s about self-understanding, of which “culture” is an important part, but only a part.
 
As for MS-13, it is a complicated mess. It is an international organized crime ring, and a very brutal one. Unfortunately, it could be counter-productive to make illegal immigrants too afraid of US domestic law enforcement agencies, because MS-13 already exploits the hesitation illegal immigrants have to go to the authorities when they are the victims of MS-13 crime. It is kind of like going into a poor neighborhood full of gangs and making everyone who lives there just as afraid of the police as they are of the gangs. All of a sudden, everyone in all the gangs knows that nobody in their neighborhood ever wants to call the police or testify against them. It actually helps the gangs operate with more impunity, rather than weakening them. Law enforcement has to choose their battles, and taking out MS-13 has to be the priority over deporting illegal cleaning ladies.
I don’t know that we can think of this as anything more than a speculation and an unlikely one at that.

For decades and decades people were afraid to tell on the Mafia and its activities, largely during a period in which an illegally-present Italian would be deported without further ado. I think it’s more reasonable to believe illegals do not “drop the dime” on MS-13 out of fear of MS-13, not out of fear of deportation, After all, the police can always “overlook” illegal presence just as they very often “overlook” informant crimes, but MS-13 will not overlook anyone giving information to the police about its activities.
 
I don’t know that we can think of this as anything more than a speculation and an unlikely one at that.

For decades and decades people were afraid to tell on the Mafia and its activities, largely during a period in which an illegally-present Italian would be deported without further ado. I think it’s more reasonable to believe illegals do not “drop the dime” on MS-13 out of fear of MS-13, not out of fear of deportation, After all, the police can always “overlook” illegal presence just as they very often “overlook” informant crimes, but MS-13 will not overlook anyone giving information to the police about its activities.
True, and it may also be a moot point because persons here illegally undoubtedly have an attitude toward police that they learned in the country of origin.
 
True, and it may also be a moot point because persons here illegally undoubtedly have an attitude toward police that they learned in the country of origin.
And not just illegals. A friend of mine who is a lawyer went to the local Municipal Court one day and saw a Mexican green card holder he knew waiting there for his case to be called.

My friend asked the Mexican what he was charged with. “DWI” was the response. My friend asked the Mexican what he was going to do. “Plead guilty and pay” was the reply.

My friend told the Mexican that he might want to get a continuance and come talk to him before he did that.

Turned out it was a second DWI for this fellow. My friend suggested he probably could get a plea bargain, and ought to because punishment is progressive here as it is in most states now.

The Mexican told him it wasn’t like that in Mexico; that the cops all know when payday is at every factory, and they “rotate” the people they are going to nail for DWI. The fine is paid right then and there, to the policeman who probably pays his superior with part of it and keeps the rest. But, the Mexican said, the fines here are so much higher. He figured it was because there were more police to pay, and then there was the judge and the clerk besides.

“No. No. Here, they really mean it” my friend told him. “They really don’t want you to drink and drive. It’s not about the money, and the cops and the judges don’t get any of it.”

The Mexican was stunned. It never occurred to him that actual prevention of drunk driving was the objective. My friend worked out a plea bargain, and that was that. Maybe the Mexican now believes law enforcement in this country really doesn’t want you driving drunk, and doesn’t just look on it as a personal revenue source.

But maybe he doesn’t.
 
“It ain’t about Trump” is an interesting thread topic, and it’s one that I have come more and more to believe. While the personal invective expressed toward Trump supporters in here has thankfully moderated, one might reasonably question whether the invective really has all that much to do with Trump as a person as it does with Trump as a symbol. A symbol of what, then?
The Nazis marching through streets in Virginia chanting “Heil Trump” literally as I post this.
 
And not just illegals. A friend of mine who is a lawyer went to the local Municipal Court one day and saw a Mexican green card holder he knew waiting there for his case to be called.

My friend asked the Mexican what he was charged with. “DWI” was the response. My friend asked the Mexican what he was going to do. “Plead guilty and pay” was the reply.

My friend told the Mexican that he might want to get a continuance and come talk to him before he did that.

Turned out it was a second DWI for this fellow. My friend suggested he probably could get a plea bargain, and ought to because punishment is progressive here as it is in most states now.

The Mexican told him it wasn’t like that in Mexico; that the cops all know when payday is at every factory, and they “rotate” the people they are going to nail for DWI. The fine is paid right then and there, to the policeman who probably pays his superior with part of it and keeps the rest. But, the Mexican said, the fines here are so much higher. He figured it was because there were more police to pay, and then there was the judge and the clerk besides.

“No. No. Here, they really mean it” my friend told him. “They really don’t want you to drink and drive. It’s not about the money, and the cops and the judges don’t get any of it.”

The Mexican was stunned. It never occurred to him that actual prevention of drunk driving was the objective. My friend worked out a plea bargain, and that was that. Maybe the Mexican now believes law enforcement in this country really doesn’t want you driving drunk, and doesn’t just look on it as a personal revenue source.

But maybe he doesn’t.
It is surprising how few Americans realize how different things are in Mexico and parts south and how few from south of our border realize how different things are here.

It is two different worlds and, sadly, two different sides of the drug trade coin. There are sons and daughters of the Universal Church suffering from one end of the map to the other, as well, and even more alienated from religion entirely for reasons connected with drug and alcohol abuse and the related social and spiritual dysfunction.

The best thing we can do here, in my opinion, is figure out how to turn down our thirst for addictive substances. An addiction spreads so much misery; it is hard to fathom the distance and the extent of the repercussions. Certainly life would be better in the countries to our south if we put a damper on the staggering sums of money our addicts are willing to beg, borrow and steal in order to self-medicate the emptiness they’re living.
The Nazis marching through streets in Virginia chanting “Heil Trump” literally as I post this.
I’m no more ready to put a blanket condemnation on Mr. Trump for those lunatics than I am to blame Jody Foster than Reagan was shot. Sure, you could make a stronger link, but let’s be real. He didn’t run for office because he wanted to lead a horde of neo-Nazis. I don’t know if he’s ever come out and said there is a vote he doesn’t like, but the Nazi Party was not good for business.

Hold him to account directly for things he has said and done. There is plenty. He has not asked anyone to organize marches making him out to be our Fuhrer.

(The NRA wasn’t formed to protect drive-by shooters, either.)
 
The Nazis marching through streets in Virginia chanting “Heil Trump” literally as I post this.
I’m no more ready to put a blanket condemnation on Mr. Trump for those lunatics than I am to blame Jody Foster than Reagan was shot. Sure, you could make a stronger link, but let’s be real. He didn’t run for office because he wanted to lead a horde of neo-Nazis. I don’t know if he’s ever come out and say there is a vote he doesn’t like, but the Nazi Party was not good for business.

Hold him to account directly for things he has said and done. There is plenty. He has not asked anyone to organize marches making him out to be our Fuhrer.
 
It is surprising how few Americans realize how different things are in Mexico and parts south and how few from south of our border realize how different things are here.

It is two different worlds and, sadly, two different sides of the drug trade coin. There are sons and daughters of the Universal Church suffering from one end of the map to the other, as well, and even more alienated from religion entirely for reasons connected with drug and alcohol abuse and the related social and spiritual dysfunction.

The best thing we can do here, in my opinion, is figure out how to turn down our thirst for addictive substances. An addiction spreads so much misery; it is hard to fathom the distance and the extent of the repercussions. Certainly life would be better in the countries to our south if we put a damper on the staggering sums of money our addicts are willing to beg, borrow and steal in order to self-medicate the emptiness they’re living.
I don’t know the degree to which, if any, alcoholism is any more pervasive in the Hispanic world than it is in the “white” world. I do know that among some recent immigrants from south of the border, driving drunk is not taken as seriously, by far, as it is here. That might just be a matter of greater awareness of its hazards here. When I was a young man, the generally accepted intoxication level for a DWI conviction was .15. It’s now .08.

I once had some good friends on the PD (still do) and they invited me to do a bunch of drinking and come blow the breathalyzer. I did. My brother-in-law kept setting me up with Black Russians until I could hardly stand. He took me to the PD and I blew. I barely, barely got to .15. I don’t think I was ever that drunk before or since. I don’t see how anybody could possibly drive with that kind of alcohol level.

Four beers is all it would take to get me to .08, at least by the charts.

As to drug addicition, I am more and more inclined to think of it as a law enforcement issue than a medical issue. If you’re addicted in Singapore, they put you into (name removed by moderator)atient rehab for a year. If you sell drugs, you get the death sentence. I wouldn’t go that far, but I don’t think rehab works most of the time without serious coercion.
 
False. There are and were a lot of non-ad-hominem reasons supporting why impeachment would be appropriate. Are you seriously expecting people to believe the false starting point to your discussion? :confused:
I just read the entire first page of that thread, and there was nothing of substance mentioned, just some vague insinuations of ‘high crimes and misdemeanors,’ none of which were ever defined. In other words, people throwing a lot of ad-hominem attacks in which the primary reason for impeachment is ‘because he’s a bad person.’

I just find it amusing that the liberals here automatically assume that Trump is lying about everything. I guess they are so used to their own leaders doing exactly that that they just naturally believe the same is true of all politicians. For example, someone posted that Trump should be called before a grand jury and put under oath to provide evidence that Obama had his phones wiretapped, because that would automatically prove him a liar. Except that the notion that his phones actually were wiretapped doesn’t seem to enter the equation at all.

If Trump is impeached and removed from office, and things go back to ‘business as usual’ in DC, then kiss your country good-bye; you will have surrendered your liberty entirely, and might as well go back to singing ‘God Save the Queen.’
 
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