It is a Sin to Vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates

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Elizabeth502 said:
The Church provides guidance for living, praying, behaving, and voting, based on absolute principles and absolute values. Beyond that, it does not itself become a stand-in for an absolutist totalitarian political state telling people how to vote “or else.” That sounds like a dream fantasy for some people on CAF, but it is simply not how it works.
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That’s how my priest explained it to me. Thank you 🙂
 
Pro-Choice is a euphamism for pro-murder.

Rence said:
That was my point: I don’t “vote to kill”. I vote for the candidate I believe is best for the job and who will serve our country and it’s citizens as best as I believe he can. The Church doesn’t tell us for whom to vote, or to not vote at all.
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I’d like to see a list of issues that are more important than the taking of innocent lives.
The Economy-no.
Employment-no.
Foreign policy-no.
Traffic laws-no.

We went to war in 1941 to stop Germany from doing something less evil than we do on a regular basis. The score so far is German death camps 6 million, American abortion centers 50 million. Hitler and his bunch were junior league compared to Americans.

Rence, maybe you should go watch an abortion before you form an opinion.
 
Desertsailor, thank you, you either believe in Jesus and follow all he taught, especially about life or you do it “your way”, and go to communion with no feelings of remorse for having supported the most heinious act that one human can inflict on another, the most defenceless of us all, OUR CHILDREN. I dont see how anyone with a concience could vote for any pro-murder candidate. Regardless of the spin, the democrats and their present leaders are by far the most hatefilled people that have ever been in power anywhere. To seek the destruction of a generation of people is disgusting example of the "ME" generation. Ginsburg of the supreme court said she supported RvW because it would rid us of a lot of "UNDESIRABLES". She like mast liberals, think they are the ONLY ones that matter. When a conserative doesnt like somethihg, he just doesnt participate in it. When a liberal doesnt like something, he wants it all destroyed so no one can. I pray for all those that think they are innocent of this tradegy when they vote for one of these criminals. Judgement will be harsh. God loves us all, especially the murdered little ones, and he is JUST. Blessings to all. Garland
 
Garland said:
Desertsailor, thank you, you either believe in Jesus and follow all he taught, especially about life or you do it “your way”, and go to communion with no feelings of remorse for having supported the most heinious act that one human can inflict on another, the most defenceless of us all, OUR CHILDREN. I dont see how anyone with a concience could vote for any pro-murder candidate. Regardless of the spin, the democrats and their present leaders are by far the most hatefilled people that have ever been in power anywhere. To seek the destruction of a generation of people is disgusting example of the "ME" generation. Ginsburg of the supreme court said she supported RvW because it would rid us of a lot of "UNDESIRABLES". She like mast liberals, think they are the ONLY ones that matter. When a conserative doesnt like somethihg, he just doesnt participate in it. When a liberal doesnt like something, he wants it all destroyed so no one can. I pray for all those that think they are innocent of this tradegy when they vote for one of these criminals. Judgement will be harsh. God loves us all, especially the murdered little ones, and he is JUST. Blessings to all. Garland
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I agree 100%. God has reserved many punishments for those who support abortion.
 
Rence said:
Those who hired people to run the gas chambers, hired those people specificly to run the gas chambers, so yes. So should the guards who rounded people up and brought them to the camps. So should those who turned in those who were hiding Jews and others targeted by the Nazis. How does that compare to voting for someone who is pro-choice?

The Presiident of the US doesn’t hire those who performs abortions. Nor does he force women to go to abortion clinics or hospitals or doctors offices that perform them, nor does he prescribe the medications to induce them. He doesn’t even hire those people who…round up women and bring them to abortion clinics against their will.
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On his thrid day in office the President released funds for overseas abortion providers. Those who voted for him are complict in the deaths of those killed by his actions. They hired him–he funded killing children. The Church’s teaching on voting for pro-abortion canidates could not be more clear.
 
estesbob said:
On his thrid day in office the President released funds for overseas abortion providers. Those who voted for him are complict in the deaths of those killed by his actions. They hired him–he funded killing children. The Church’s teaching on voting for pro-abortion canidates could not be more clear.
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That is your interpretation of the documents you read, and I do not share that opinion, but since you do, it’s important for you to vote in the matter that gives you a clear conscience. No one should do what they feel is wrong, and that makes them uncomfortable. My conscience is clear because I do not vote for “pro-abortion” candidates.
 
Rence said:
That is your interpretation of the documents you read, and I do not share that opinion, but since you do, it’s important for you to vote in the matter that gives you a clear conscience. No one should do what they feel is wrong, and that makes them uncomfortable. My conscience is clear because I do not vote for “pro-abortion” candidates.
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Its not a matter of interpretaion or a matter of a “clear conscience”. its a matter of what the Church teaches. as has been ponted out ad nauseum in this thread on one side we post exceoprts from the Cathecism. quotes from membres of the magestrium and the Pope-in response all we get is "my Priest told me different and/or "I have to follow my conscience
 
I’m surprised the Pope just doesn’t issue a statement: “Don’t vote for Obama” if it is such a clear issue.
 
Doc_Keele said:
This thread is a positive microcosm of CAF.
A vocal group of quasi-vitalist monomaniacs are trying to convince people that their private revelation amounts to a Magisterial pronouncement, an assertion they can’t prove because it’s not true. They have singularly failed to provide proof, whilst demanding proof that it is permissible to vote for a pro-choice candidate (although confusingly they have already contradicted themselves on this).
The Magisterium couldn’t possibly endorse their position because it makes no sense. Let’s consider the possible outcomes of arguing this nonsensical doctrine.
  1. the conscientious Catholic rejects their argument as nonsense and rejects it as representing the Magisterium’s position. The quasi-vitalist monomaniacs (QVMs) are rightly discredited.
  2. the conscientious Catholic holds their argument as nonsensical but is convinced by the QVMs that it is the Magisterial position. This might either result in the person considering leaving the church (as per Donna Jean), becoming a convinced cafeteria Catholic who may then reject more rational and genuinely Magisterial doctrines, or submitting to the doctrine, unwittedly becoming a heretic and also subjecting the Church to ridicule from the outside - and also creating cognitive dissonance.
  3. the conscientious Catholic accepts their position as true and reflecting the Magisterium, unwittedly becoming heretics and exposing the Church to ridicule. They may become more likely to accept other false and extreme statements, and look down on other Catholics as weak and liberal.
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This must be the post, huh? I’ve just popped in here to see what’s going on and I found this. I argued and argued with him. He wouldn’t accept Church teaching on abortion and voting, even when he was shown supporting documentation. It’s like there was some sort of mental wall or something that blocked out reality.

Then here he calls those who accept Magisterial teaching, which has been shown to him, as “unwitting heretics” - words which are mutually exclusive.

I feel sad. This is a shame. I don’t know how we failed or if it was our responsibility or what happened. But the end result is the same. He won’t accept Church teaching.
 
estesbob said:
Only if his opponent was even more pro-abortion than he was or both canidates were pro-life. The Pope specifically said that support for war does not rise to the level of support for abortion. I have elsewhere in this thread posted the apllicable quote from Pope Benedict.
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If what I’m going to post here has been said already, I apologize in advance. I was very confused about this whole voting thing until I read in the CCC where it discusses how very important the right to life is. It’s true that it can be difficult to choose between a candidate who is pro-abortion but anti-war and an candidate who is against abortion but pro-war. How does one choose?

It’s in the CCC. I can’t find the reference now (I’m sick) and I’m sorry. It’s in there. The right-to-life of unborn children is the base that supports all other rights.

That’s why a candidate’s position on abortion is more important than his/her position on war. War is meaningless to children who have been murdered while still in the womb.

Pollution causes injury, disease and death. But that doesn’t matter to a dead baby who has never even had the chance to breathe.

There are lots of issues which involve prolifers. But none is more important than the stopping of procured abortions.
 
Rence said:
So, by your reasoning, if a Catholic hospital grants privelidges to a doctor on staff who also performs abortions at the non-Catholic hospital a few miles down the road, then they guilty of supporting doctors who perform abortion clinics. I don’t agree with this line of reasoning.
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No - they [are] not guilty of supporting doctors who perform abortions [at] abortion clinics. They are guilty of supporting the doctor who performs abortions at the hospital down the street. That doctor’s privileges at the Catholic hospital should be revoked.

No doctor who performs procured abortions should be employed in any capacity by any Catholic hospital or clinic. To employ such a doctor is to be a hypocrite.
 
donna_jean said:
I have heard you loud and clear from the first time I posted, Bob. So, would you be like others then and tell me to go to a different church outside of Catholicism? I clearly have the separation feeling and it is because of this that I am on the edge…You are saying it is because I am against Catholic Teaching…I feel that there is no other church I would want to belong…so where does that leave a person like me???

I can not say I will ever believe the doctrines in any church…all of them…all the time…I am what one calls human…far beneath… and I do feel it is sinful to vote for a candidate that wants to kill.
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Donna Jean, I don’t know you and I’ve entered this thread at a bad place and I’m really sick but I’m afraid for you. I don’t want you to leave the Church. I know it’s not my business, but in a way it is because you are my sister in Christ.

I have weak faith. I’m a Doubting Thomas. I admit it and I fight and pray for faith and things don’t seem to get better. But I know it would be a mistake for you to leave the Church. I don’t know how I know. I just do.

When I don’t understand something that is presented to me as Church doctrine I try to find out all the information I can before I decide if it’s even Church doctrine in the first place. And sometimes that is hard to do.

I’ve been sure of myself a few times and then I’ve conceded when I’m shown the actual documentation that proves me wrong. And I’m glad to concede.

When I doubt a supposed doctrine I put it on the back burner and then think about it and like I said above, I try to find out if it’s really Church doctrine. If I find out it is Church doctrine but my gut feeling tells me it’s wrong, I put it on the back burner again. It may take months but sometimes things become much clearer over time. Some Church doctrine appears ambiguous to me and it’s really hard to know what to do. So I think and then I let it go and later on I think some more and I may ask a priest (but often priests are wrong), so I ask another priest, until I am sure.

I don’t think God expects any of us to take absolutely everything the Church teaches on faith and I’m pretty sure He doesn’t expect us to believe that something is Church doctrine just because someone on CAF says so. He knows what is in your heart. He knows you struggle. As long as you’re struggling to find Truth what could be wrong with what you’re doing?

It’s easy for me to leave the Church. Sometimes I read a post on CAF and in my mind I leave the Church (which is really leaving the Church). Later on I realize that I was wrong.

I’m not pretending to know the answer and please don’t think I’m trying to tell you what to do. I want to help and I have a problem like you have and I just want you to know what I think. That’s all. Take it with a grain of salt or toss it - it’s up to you.

Oh - I almost forgot. I also pray to God for wisdom because I am seriously lacking in that department. 😦
 
Hi all, I think all the saints struggled with the same things about our beautiful faith. What made them great was the ability to forget self and cleave to Holy Mother Church. In so doing they were hanging on to God like a pitbull hangs on to it aggressor. That hanging on and trusting the CHURCH through every temptation made them what they were. The father of lies spreads his errors in the most convenient way, to cause us doubts, and misgivings about everything we say and do.
I saw Mrs Bush, the younger, on TV and she said she wanted abortion to remain legal, disagreeing with her husband, and my question to her and all here is, HOW CAN MURDER BE MADE LEGAL IN AMERICA with a majority of the populace claiming to be CHRISTIANS? The fact that over 50% of catholics voted the party of DEATH is sickening. A democrat who was left by the party. Garland
 
Garland said:
Hi all, I think all the saints struggled with the same things about our beautiful faith. What made them great was the ability to forget self and cleave to Holy Mother Church. In so doing they were hanging on to God like a pitbull hangs on to it aggressor. That hanging on and trusting the CHURCH through every temptation made them what they were. The father of lies spreads his errors in the most convenient way, to cause us doubts, and misgivings about everything we say and do.
I saw Mrs Bush, the younger, on TV and she said she wanted abortion to remain legal, disagreeing with her husband, and my question to her and all here is, HOW CAN MURDER BE MADE LEGAL IN AMERICA with a majority of the populace claiming to be CHRISTIANS? The fact that over 50% of catholics voted the party of DEATH is sickening. A democrat who was left by the party. Garland
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Very good! Unfortunately, many people who call themselves Catholic are really secularists, especially the politicians. God will purify us and straighten out our thinking through the chastisements. If we do not listen to God, then we have to feel.
 
There is a connection between socialism and abortion. Socialism is hostile to the Church and the family. "Socialism, with its essentially materialistic nature, can admit no raison d’etre for a spiritual power, as complementary and superior to the secular power of the State. …. The State was never meant to appropriate to itself the main parental duties…"
 
We must work very hard to bring the issues of life, faith, and family to the forefront of the November elections. Catholics have the votes to eliminate all politicians in Washington who support abortion!
 
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Major_Tom said:
If the Church were to officially take and announce this policy, I wonder if it’s tax-exempt status should be reconsidered.
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🤷

UUH, I believe the Church has taken an official stand on this grave matter Major Tom. I believe you may be asking the question shouldn’t the Catholic Churches tax exemption be reconsidered. Due to the FACT that the Government has no right to interfere with our religous freedoms, I believe the answer to your question would be no. 👍
 
estesbob said:
The Church says you can vote for the canidate who would do "less harm as far as abotion is concerned.

The last Presidential election was a good examole. Obama supported taxpayer funded abortions on demand with no restrictions. McCain opposed abortions except in cases of rape and incest. Neither poistion is in accordace with Church teaching but a Catholic could , in good conscience, vote for McCain but not Obama.

As to whether voting for a pro-abortion canidate is a sin no one can ever tell if anothers actions are a sin. The best we can say is voting for a Pro-abortion canidate is against the teachings of the Church. If a person has a properly formed conscience they would never do it.
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How right you are. 👍 I wonder why more Bishops didn’t come out with this direct statement instead of providing “loopholes” for those who thought economic issues over rode those of life and death. You know, Primacy of conscience??? :banghead::banghead:
 
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