It is a Sin to Vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates

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I think we call people their is a name associated with those individuals that disregard or protest the moral teachings of the Pope and Magisterium… I think they are called Protestants…🤷 I am pretty sure that is what they are ???
No they are called Catholic.
  1. It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html
 
Can you give us a list of what teachings Catholics can safely ignore? it really would be helpful.
Safely ignore in the eyes of the Church? Do you mean from canon, dogma, defined doctrine, undefined doctrine, so called infallible teachings, the catechism, from mere disciplines? I never said in the eyes of the Catholic Church anything can be ignored safely.
 
Safely ignore in the eyes of the Church? Do you mean from canon, dogma, defined doctrine, undefined doctrine, so called infallible teachings, the catechism, from mere disciplines? I never said in the eyes of the Catholic Church anything can be ignored safely.
You spent a whole thread telling how you didnt have to follow Church teaching on Abortion. In fact you said
Including informed catechized but still dissenting on some issue Catholics
Evidently you feel that some teachings can be ignored safely. i dont beleive anything the Church teaches can be ignored-whether it disagrees with my politics or not.
 
To all the people who disregarded the teachings of Holy Mother Church and voted the pro-death party. Had it been legal and your mothers had been inclined to abort you, this would be a mute point. There can be no, NO, NO, reason to aid in the destruction of life as preached and practiced by the dems. I have followed this thread with utter amazement as I see the twist and turns offered by you for voteing and supporting this bloody horrible act perpatated on the most innocent and defenceless of humanity, our children. The acts of adolf Hitler and his henchmen pale in comparison. 11 million jews, christians, disabled and “undesirables” by him and 50 million unborn by the pro-death group. Blood is blood and to support anyone in any wayto do this is disgusting for any person. If you claim Christianity and support this in any way, you must have a very narrow view of Jesus and what he taught. I was and am a dem. that finds what the party has devolved into, the most horrible, shameful org. of men ever to be on the planet. As long as they get voted in with there murder views they couldn`t care less about you. When the people who vote say NO you must stop this or lose, then you will see them change. Not until. No matter how you spin it, murder is murder, and you might as well take a weapon to you 6 yr. old child as to have a butcher disguised as a Dr. do it for you with a scapel. needle full of acid, or suction devise suck its brains out while it struggles to defend itself. There is blood on the hands of every person who voted for or supports these poor excuses for humans. Garland
 
Holy cow…Elts… I thought I was bad with like three or four posts, but gee whiz you sure know how to make pancakes… I was too exhausted to read more then the first and last couple. I apologize for wasting your time…😊
Lypher, THIS IS MY LIFE!! Sad, huh?
 
I just do not think it is politically possible to abolish abortion; furthermore, I do not believe abortion should be used as a cudgel to force people to disregard other important issues because of their moral ambiguity (or more likely the differential impact on varying people’s self interest causing people to take views consistent with their self-interest)

I believe abortion is best dealt with repressive social institutions not rule of law which is a Confucian position. Abortion should be discouraged through social taboos and inculcated morality, not draconian rule of law.
Well, society used to have that type of moral conscience. Long time ago. As far as draconion rules of law, the law, religious and secular, is what gave society its moral conscience.
 
I just do not think it is politically possible to abolish abortion; furthermore, I do not believe abortion should be used as a cudgel to force people to disregard other important issues because of their moral ambiguity (or more likely the differential impact on varying people’s self interest causing people to take views consistent with their self-interest)

I believe abortion is best dealt with repressive social institutions not rule of law which is a Confucian position. Abortion should be discouraged through social taboos and inculcated morality, not draconian rule of law.
Thank you!!! This is what I’ve been trying to say. “Matters of great importance” will vary from individual voter to voter. Yes, the Church is there to guide us, but I am not aware of them endorsing or telling Catholics they can vote or are forbiddent to vote for specific candidates. We still follow our conscience and weigh the strengths and weaknesses of each candidate.
What it comes down to Rence is the strength or weakness of our individual conscience. Ya, still ain’t got it fellow.
 
Voting for those who are pawns of the corrupt bankers, rapacious moneyed interests, devastaters of God’s green earth, and oppressors of the poor and laborers also has moral consequences. Since you brought up the “writing on the wall” here’s a poem you might enjoy:

"The Run Upon the Bankers", by Jonathan Swift

*The bold encroachers on the deep Gain by degrees huge tracts of land, Till Neptune, with one general sweep, Turns all again to barren strand.

The multitude’s capricious pranks Are said to represent the seas, Breaking the bankers and the banks, Resume their own whene’er they please.

Money, the life-blood of the nation, Corrupts and stagnates in the veins, Unless a proper circulation Its motion and its heat maintains.

Because 'tis lordly not to pay, Quakers and aldermen in state, Like peers, have levees every day Of duns attending at their gate.

We want our money on the nail; The banker’s ruin’d if he pays: They seem to act an ancient tale; The birds are met to strip the jays.

“Riches,” the wisest monarch sings, “Make pinions for themselves to fly;” They fly like bats on parchment wings, And geese their silver plumes supply.

No money left for squandering heirs! Bills turn the lenders into debtors: The wish of Nero now is theirs, “That they had never known their letters.”

Conceive the works of midnight hags, Tormenting fools behind their backs: Thus bankers, o’er their bills and bags, Sit squeezing images of wax.

Conceive the whole enchantment broke; The witches left in open air, With power no more than other folk, Exposed with all their magic ware.

So powerful are a banker’s bills, Where creditors demand their due; They break up counters, doors, and tills, And leave the empty chests in view.

Thus when an earthquake lets in light Upon the god of gold and hell, Unable to endure the sight, He hides within his darkest cell.

As when a conjurer takes a lease From Satan for a term of years, The tenant’s in a dismal case, Whene’er the bloody bond appears.

A baited banker thus desponds, From his own hand foresees his fall, They have his soul, who have his bonds; 'Tis like the writing on the wall.*

How will the caitiff wretch be scared, When first he finds himself awake At the last trumpet, unprepared, And all his grand account to make!

For in that universal call, Few bankers will to heaven be mounters; They’ll cry, “Ye shops, upon us fall! Conceal and cover us, ye counters!”

When other hands the scales shall hold, And they, in men’s and angels’ sight Produced with all their bills and gold, "Weigh’d in the balance and found light!"
Gee, did he put together a bible and a church too?
 
Voting for those who are pawns of the corrupt bankers, rapacious moneyed interests, devastaters of God’s green earth, and oppressors of the poor and laborers also has moral consequences. Since you brought up the “writing on the wall” here’s a poem you might enjoy:

"The Run Upon the Bankers", by Jonathan Swift

*The bold encroachers on the deep Gain by degrees huge tracts of land, Till Neptune, with one general sweep, Turns all again to barren strand.

The multitude’s capricious pranks Are said to represent the seas, Breaking the bankers and the banks, Resume their own whene’er they please.

Money, the life-blood of the nation, Corrupts and stagnates in the veins, Unless a proper circulation Its motion and its heat maintains.

Because 'tis lordly not to pay, Quakers and aldermen in state, Like peers, have levees every day Of duns attending at their gate.

We want our money on the nail; The banker’s ruin’d if he pays: They seem to act an ancient tale; The birds are met to strip the jays.

“Riches,” the wisest monarch sings, “Make pinions for themselves to fly;” They fly like bats on parchment wings, And geese their silver plumes supply.

No money left for squandering heirs! Bills turn the lenders into debtors: The wish of Nero now is theirs, “That they had never known their letters.”

Conceive the works of midnight hags, Tormenting fools behind their backs: Thus bankers, o’er their bills and bags, Sit squeezing images of wax.

Conceive the whole enchantment broke; The witches left in open air, With power no more than other folk, Exposed with all their magic ware.

So powerful are a banker’s bills, Where creditors demand their due; They break up counters, doors, and tills, And leave the empty chests in view.

Thus when an earthquake lets in light Upon the god of gold and hell, Unable to endure the sight, He hides within his darkest cell.

As when a conjurer takes a lease From Satan for a term of years, The tenant’s in a dismal case, Whene’er the bloody bond appears.

A baited banker thus desponds, From his own hand foresees his fall, They have his soul, who have his bonds; 'Tis like the writing on the wall.*

How will the caitiff wretch be scared, When first he finds himself awake At the last trumpet, unprepared, And all his grand account to make!

For in that universal call, Few bankers will to heaven be mounters; They’ll cry, “Ye shops, upon us fall! Conceal and cover us, ye counters!”

When other hands the scales shall hold, And they, in men’s and angels’ sight Produced with all their bills and gold, "Weigh’d in the balance and found light!"
Sometimes the “bottom line IS to do nothing.” Case in point: Both candidates support abortion or some form of abortion under certain conditions. This is truly the case in many campaigns. And, too, politicians who tout themselves anti-abortion will admit that abortion is okay when the mother’s life is at stake, and/or due to rape, and/or incest. Beware of the many anti-abortionists who are NOT pro life!
We are to vote for the candidate who, in all liklihood, will prevent the spread of abortion. or lessen it. Idealistically this person would outlaw abortion.
 
That is your interpretation of the documents you read, and I do not share that opinion, but since you do, it’s important for you to vote in the matter that gives you a clear conscience. No one should do what they feel is wrong, and that makes them uncomfortable. My conscience is clear because I do not vote for “pro-abortion” candidates.
It’s not my “opinion” Its the clear teaching of the Church. You can not find a single member of the magestirum to back up your opinion. As has been pointed out ad nauseum saying you conscience is “clear” is meaningless-it is the last refuge of those who either can not or do not want to adhere to what the Church teaches.

You have to honestly ask yourself:

Does your plotics form your Faith OR
Does your Faith from your politics.

A Cathoilc who follows the latter could NEVER vote for canidate who favored unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand. Never
 
Gee, did he put together a bible and a church too?
Stange Thread.

One tells us to follow our conscience
Another Jonathan Swift
Still another Confucius.

One wonder why they just dont accept the obvious-we foilow the Church
 
…but it has already been conceded that actually one can…your position is totally incoherent.
The Magesterium is needed for checks and balance. When all else fails follow the Magisterium. I am no saint, but I didn’t really need the Magisterium to tell me is is a grevious sin to directly have or promote an abortion, or to support those who say such an action is not the most evil act one can commit. That selfishness, the economy especially, comes before honor, self sacrifice and dignity. I didn’t need anyone to tell me it is wrong to kill a baby, or wrong not to give these little ones all the protection one can give.
 
The Magesterium is needed for checks and balance. When all else fails follow the Magisterium. I am no saint, but I didn’t really need the Magisterium to tell me is is a grevious sin to directly have an abortion, or to support those who say such an action is not the most evil act on can commit. That selfishness, the economy especially, comes before honor, self sacrifice and dignity.
Yup. There can be be no social justice for a person, if that person is dead (aborted)
 
…but it has already been conceded that actually one can…your position is totally incoherent.
:confused: When did I claim anything is ok in the eyes of the Church? I claim Catholic ID yes. The Church even claims me as such and as a member of the Church. But I do not deny dissent from some teachings. Peace to you.
You have to take the whole package regarding doctrine and dogma, or you might just as well go to another religion.
 
You spent a whole thread telling how you didnt have to follow Church teaching on Abortion. Evidently you feel that some teachings can be ignored safely. i dont beleive anything the Church teaches can be ignored-whether it disagrees with my politics or not.
I don’t have to follow it in the voting booth. I do not live in a theocracy. I live in a pluralistic democratic society made up of many faiths and beliefs besides our Catholic faith. While yes I do believe we can ignore some of the teachings, especially any directives telling us how to vote in secular elections, again I have never said **in the eyes of the Church **we can safely. We obviously disagree about this and that’s fine. You are obviously a better practicng Catholic than I. I gladly cede that pt.

The document on the Church in the Modern World #16 stated clearly the important role of conscience in the life of the Christian.

“Deep within their consciences men and women discover a law which they have not laid upon themselves and which they must obey. Its voice, ever calling them to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, tells them inwardly at the right moment: do this, shun that. For they have in their hearts a law inscribed by God. Their dignity rests in observing this law, and by it they will be judged. Their conscience is people’s most secret core, and their sanctuary. There they are alone with God whose voice echoes in their depths. By conscience, in a wonderful way, that law is made known which is fulfilled in the love of God and of one’s neighbor.”

And commenting on the above document, theologian Fr. Joseph Razinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) wrote in 1968:

"**Over the pope **as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority, there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed above all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority.

Peace on your walk with our Lord. God bless you.

ascensioncatholic.net/TOPICS/morality/ConscienceAndMoralDecisions.html
 
Matt why do we call a Protestant a protestant?
🤷 I didn’t come up with the definition. I suppose though a non Catholic who protests is why many call someone that. I know who the Church calls Catholic though. If you dissent from the Church’s definition of who are members of the Catholic Church then that’s something you’ll have to work out with the Church I suppose. Peace.
 
You have to take the whole package regarding doctrine and dogma, or you might just as well go to another religion.
You sound as if you dissent on the Church’s definition of who is a member of the Catholic Church.
 
Does your plotics form your Faith OR
Does your Faith from your politics.

A Cathoilc who follows the latter could NEVER vote for canidate who favored unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand. Never
Well It’s a bit more complicated than that. To begin with what I believe and what my Church believes about the moment of conception may not be what another believes and I don’t know where you reside, but thankfully I don’t live in a theocracy. And secondly your conclusion is simply not so and I actually resent you implying my politics form my faith. My faith forms my politics. But my faith goes far beyond a single issue. Read Matthew 25:35-45 for Christ’s idea of righteousness. Read the Sermon on the Mount where Christ says blessed are the peacemakers. Read where He talked about not judging. Peace.
 
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