It is a Sin to Vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates

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Worthy5 said:
Give me a break, You obviously have not clue of how the American legal system works. American law must promote multiple policies simultaneously in order for a free society to function. One of the policies, in addition to trying to protect life, is the policy of limited government.

The govt does not get to make every decision in this society and it can use other means other than the police power (criminalizing all abortions) to help women make better decisions in the matter of the early fetus. Late term abortion, funding of abortion is one thing, But the decision of the women in regards to the early fetus is something that arguable should be protected to promote limited govt.

The Church has no rubric of authority on matters of American civil law, only on essential matters of faith and morals. Moreover, to hold your position effectively means one cannot be Catholic and support the two party system—which is essential to this democracy.

The Church is way out of line on asserting its authority on the legal aspect of abortion----it absolutely should speak out against it from a moral viewpoint of course.

The Church is getting way too political on this issue and the media is now playing hardball on the abuse problem as payback. Talk about the moral issue not the legal issue.

Hey, got to keep the debate up. 🙂
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Your argument is upside down. Secularists argue that religion should be judged by politics. That is not true. Catholics believe that politics is judged by religion!

It is government that is way out of line, not the Catholic Church.

Your statement, “The Church has no rubric of authority on matters of American civil law.” is correct. By the same standard, government has no authority over divine law or natural law. Abortion has nothing to with civil law; therefore, government’s “laws” on abortion are not really laws at all!
 
revmitchell said:
Churches can lose their 5013c letter but the church is not dependent on that letter for a tax exempt status. The church is the only organization that has a specific tax exemption under the IRS code separate from the 5013c letter. The church cannot ever lose its tax exempt status.

No church has ever lost its tax exempt status.
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Just to clarify ALL Churches are automatically considered 501(c)(3) organizations without having to file any paperwork. There are some defnitions of what is considered a Church but generally the IRS treads very lightly withChurches, whatever thier denomination they are
 
Sorry for jumping in late but I believe the only moral criterion we have is the greater good, or the less suffering. If you compare suffering caused by abortion to suffering caused by war they don’t even come close. Why then is voting for a pro-abortion candidate such a big sin? Only because some church fathers said so in the 1st century? If abortion is the gravest sin, then:
  • How come Jesus didn’t say a single word on it? Being God incarnate He must have known it would become the greatest moral issue in America 2000 years later. Instead he chose to rail against the rich and greed (how American!) and money (how American!), issues that nobody mentions today.
  • How come even the Old Testament has only one passage, not very clear at all (in Exodus) on such a big moral evil? Verses in Psalms don’t have the same weight as they are poetry, but also because in Job you find sayings like “cursed be the night I was conceived” or “it would have been much better had I never been born” which mean that quality of life is important.
  • How come voting for the issues specifically enumerated in the Sermon on the Mount and neglecting (or just not prioritizing) some others that were not mentioned there (i.e. neglected) makes you a candidate for hell?
  • How come Christians in the rest of the world don’t choose their leaders based on this single issue but on the more complex greater good issues?
  • Why is this issue so vitriolic only in America and why the biggest supporters of wars and guns are also anti-abortion? Is it just some sort of compensation which allows them to be labeled “pro-life” and so soothe their consciences, while supporting a war machine? Where is the consistency here?
    I think these are important questions that every Christian has to ponder, and not in the voting booth only.
Peace,
 
zalo said:
Sorry for jumping in late but I believe the only moral criterion we have is the greater good, or the less suffering. If you compare suffering caused by abortion to suffering caused by war they don’t even come close. Why then is voting for a pro-abortion candidate such a big sin? Only because some church fathers said so in the 1st century? If abortion is the gravest sin, then:
  • How come Jesus didn’t say a single word on it? Being God incarnate He must have known it would become the greatest moral issue in America 2000 years later. Instead he chose to rail against the rich and greed (how American!) and money (how American!), issues that nobody mentions today.
  • How come even the Old Testament has only one passage, not very clear at all (in Exodus) on such a big moral evil? Verses in Psalms don’t have the same weight as they are poetry, but also because in Job you find sayings like “cursed be the night I was conceived” or “it would have been much better had I never been born” which mean that quality of life is important.
  • How come voting for the issues specifically enumerated in the Sermon on the Mount and neglecting (or just not prioritizing) some others that were not mentioned there (i.e. neglected) makes you a candidate for hell?
  • How come Christians in the rest of the world don’t choose their leaders based on this single issue but on the more complex greater good issues?
  • Why is this issue so vitriolic only in America and why the biggest supporters of wars and guns are also anti-abortion? Is it just some sort of compensation which allows them to be labeled “pro-life” and so soothe their consciences, while supporting a war machine? Where is the consistency here?
    I think these are important questions that every Christian has to ponder, and not in the voting booth only.
Peace,
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Abortion deals with life itself. There is nothing more important than abortion. Abortion is not an “issue.” It is about justice.
 
Doc_Keele said:
So we’ve already evolved from the opening position that it is a sin full stop to vote for a candidate that supports abortion…

If abortion becomes a “hot potato”, any bets about who that would favour? Pro-choice or pro-life?
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Do you deny that Catholics have a moral obligation to defy unjust “laws?” What is more unjust than abortion?
 
zalo said:
Sorry for jumping in late but I believe the only moral criterion we have is the greater good, or the less suffering. If you compare suffering caused by abortion to suffering caused by war they don’t even come close. Why then is voting for a pro-abortion candidate such a big sin? Only because some church fathers said so in the 1st century? If abortion is the gravest sin, then:
  • How come Jesus didn’t say a single word on it? Being God incarnate He must have known it would become the greatest moral issue in America 2000 years later. Instead he chose to rail against the rich and greed (how American!) and money (how American!), issues that nobody mentions today.
  • How come even the Old Testament has only one passage, not very clear at all (in Exodus) on such a big moral evil? Verses in Psalms don’t have the same weight as they are poetry, but also because in Job you find sayings like “cursed be the night I was conceived” or “it would have been much better had I never been born” which mean that quality of life is important.
  • How come voting for the issues specifically enumerated in the Sermon on the Mount and neglecting (or just not prioritizing) some others that were not mentioned there (i.e. neglected) makes you a candidate for hell?
  • How come Christians in the rest of the world don’t choose their leaders based on this single issue but on the more complex greater good issues?
  • Why is this issue so vitriolic only in America and why the biggest supporters of wars and guns are also anti-abortion? Is it just some sort of compensation which allows them to be labeled “pro-life” and so soothe their consciences, while supporting a war machine? Where is the consistency here?
    I think these are important questions that every Christian has to ponder, and not in the voting booth only.
Peace,
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You really have no concept of what is going on. In the United States, 3700 abortions happen every single day. Since Roe v. Wade more than 50,000,000 innocents have lost their lives to uncaring mothers and profiteering “doctors.” To say that war causes more suffering is simply denial of the facts. 50,000,000. DO you have any concept of that number? 6,000,000 Jews died in the death camps. The American holocaust is greater. The reason this is a greater issue in the United States than Europe is simple: Europe has lost its way. You have been blinded by moral relativism, by the view that morality is subjective, and is determined by the individual. Morality is objective. There is a difference between war and abortion. War can be justified, whereas abortion is never justifiable.
 
I do not know about you guys, but I started to exist about 9 months before I was born. I was not a possibility that “COULD become a child.” I was an actual child who had a body.

“Abortion and euthanasia are thus crimes which no human law can claim to legitimize. There is no obligation in conscience to obey such laws; instead there is a grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection (Pope John Paul II).”
 
CPA2 said:
Do you deny that Catholics have a moral obligation to defy unjust “laws?” What is more unjust than abortion?
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Why do you ask me if I deny something, when there’s no evidence that I do? This is off-topic, the topic is about voting, not defying the law.
 
The fight over abortion always seems to end in the struggle over the sovereignty of God. We have two choices. We can say, “God is the Lord of my choices.” He alone has authority over my life. I will obey His laws and His will. On the other hand, we can say, “I am the Lord of my choices.” I alone will decide what is true, and what is right for me. I will do what I want, when I want and how I want.

I raised the ire of a number of atheists in another thread by stating that atheists practice idolatry. Atheism has a new god (with a small “g”), and that is Man. Atheism starts with the affirmation of ourselves and ends with the denial of a moral law. Atheism is the free and eager rejection of morality and all of its “old fashion” demands.

Oh yes, atheism professes to love its neighbor, as many atheists have reminded me. However, atheism ignores God. Additionally, atheists are always angered when they hear anything about God or religion. If God is just a myth, why is there such anger and resentment? Oh I know, “I am forcing my religion down their throats.”

We all have free will. We can serve God, or we can serve ourselves. God alone has power over life. We can only find true joy and fulfillment by freely assenting to God’s will, sovereignty, and dominion over life.
 
You are right in that none of us are God and have no right to judge others as that is reserved for God, but we are to judge actions according to God’s laws. Our own actions and others. I can’t condemn an abortionist and say for certain that he’s going to hell, but I do know what he is doing is a grave sin and that behavior puts him at grave risk of hell. To stand by watching my brother in danger and doing nothing or supporting that behavior puts me at risk too.

In these times “What is good has become evil, and what is evil has become good” often those who speak up for good are now demonized and those who promote evil are put on a pedestal.

How do we love our enemies as Christ commanded? Who are our enemies? We have the obligation to speak up and to do everything non sinful in our power to disuade sinful behavior. We must not lose sight of the fact that it is not against men that we fight but the powers and pricipalities of darkness. An abortionist and pro choice people are not the devil, they are victims of the devil.

We have no authority on our own to declare something sinful but that is why Christ founded, empowered and authorized a teaching Church to do so for us. A Church that He would guide, and protect on matters of faith and morals by the power of his Holy Spirit.

At the final judgement when our hearts are read and nothing is hidden we will be asked to account for what we did and didn’t do. The only law that will count then is God’s law.
 
sedonaman said:
This might not necessarily be true. Suppose your only choices were candidates who promised to protect those “rights” ?
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You have the choice of not voting which is considered a" vote" by the politicians.
 
The commandment against killing is not just directed at Catholics but for all people everywhere.
 
“You really have no concept of what is going on. In the United States, 3700 abortions happen every single day. Since Roe v. Wade more than 50,000,000 innocents have lost their lives to uncaring mothers and profiteering “doctors.” To say that war causes more suffering is simply denial of the facts. 50,000,000. DO you have any concept of that number? 6,000,000 Jews died in the death camps. The American holocaust is greater. The reason this is a greater issue in the United States than Europe is simple: Europe has lost its way. You have been blinded by moral relativism, by the view that morality is subjective, and is determined by the individual. Morality is objective. There is a difference between war and abortion. War can be justified, whereas abortion is never justifiable.”

Are you trying to equate suffering caused by abortion (almost non-existant) to suffering caused by war? Pray go tell this to the Jews who went through Dachau, or any Iraqi victim for that matter. This position is simply non tenable, to say the mildest.
Europe has lost its way? Pray go tell this to the peaceful Scandinavian countries which stand on top of every imaginable measure of human development, including much fewer abortions than the Christian US. Go live in Norway for 6 months and check it for yourself.
Moreover, you ignore all question posed in my post. Is it beacuse they make you uncomfortable?
 
Maybe I am naive but I voted for the person I believed to be more reasonable. However, the more I think on it, maybe I made the wrong choice.

Isn’t it the case that the cause of abortion in the first place is sex outside of a stable healthy relationship between two married people? Nearly 40 percent of babies born in 2007were born out of wedlock. The Christian institution and values which I believe in and live for is failing and sin begets more sin.

If abortion is an offshoot of the sexual revolution of the 60’s, until or unless we change the culture’s obsession with sex outside of marriage (not likely). I doubt that a president’s stance on the issue or laws passed against it will even make any real impact on the amount of abortions that happen.

I say it is illogical to base your vote on one social justice issue. I believe the entire person, not just one of his or her beliefs should be scrutinized carefully.

This being said, I could be wrong. A bishop I know once said, “What we teach, isn’t logical.”
 
zalo said:
“You really have no concept of what is going on. In the United States, 3700 abortions happen every single day. Since Roe v. Wade more than 50,000,000 innocents have lost their lives to uncaring mothers and profiteering “doctors.” To say that war causes more suffering is simply denial of the facts. 50,000,000. DO you have any concept of that number? 6,000,000 Jews died in the death camps. The American holocaust is greater. The reason this is a greater issue in the United States than Europe is simple: Europe has lost its way. You have been blinded by moral relativism, by the view that morality is subjective, and is determined by the individual. Morality is objective. There is a difference between war and abortion. War can be justified, whereas abortion is never justifiable.”

Are you trying to equate suffering caused by abortion (almost non-existant) to suffering caused by war? Pray go tell this to the Jews who went through Dachau, or any Iraqi victim for that matter. This position is simply non tenable, to say the mildest.
Europe has lost its way? Pray go tell this to the peaceful Scandinavian countries which stand on top of every imaginable measure of human development, including much fewer abortions than the Christian US. Go live in Norway for 6 months and check it for yourself.
Moreover, you ignore all question posed in my post. Is it beacuse they make you uncomfortable?
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Before I answer your questions I need to educate you about the butchery of abortion. How can you say that snuffing out 50,000,000 lives is “nonexistent” suffering. Never mind the psychological trauma of mothers and fathers who have consented to the extermination of their children. You have bought the lies of the pro-death lobby.
 
“Before I answer your questions I need to educate you about the butchery of abortion. How can you say that snuffing out 50,000,000 lives is “nonexistent” suffering. Never mind the psychological trauma of mothers and fathers who have consented to the extermination of their children. You have bought the lies of the pro-death lobby.”

Sorry, but again you ignore my questions.
I haven’t bought any lies, I am a human person with experience in suffering and I know what I’m talking about. The problem is not with calling abortion a bad thing, it is with making it the summum of all evil and a non-negotiable. What I’ve been saying is simply common sense and cannot be dismissed by slogans like butchery, extermination etc. It only cheapens the suffering of war victims by equating it with “suffering” of yet unformed fetuses or stem cells.
 
zalo said:
“Before I answer your questions I need to educate you about the butchery of abortion. How can you say that snuffing out 50,000,000 lives is “nonexistent” suffering. Never mind the psychological trauma of mothers and fathers who have consented to the extermination of their children. You have bought the lies of the pro-death lobby.”

Sorry, but again you ignore my questions.
I haven’t bought any lies, I am a human person with experience in suffering and I know what I’m talking about. The problem is not with calling abortion a bad thing, it is with making it the summum of all evil and a non-negotiable. What I’ve been saying is simply common sense and cannot be dismissed by slogans like butchery, extermination etc. It only cheapens the suffering of war victims by equating it with “suffering” of yet unformed fetuses or stem cells.
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I hate to break it to you, but wars can be justified. Your problem is that you do not accept that the unborn are actually PEOPLE. Until you accept that simple fact, you will be accepting of the lies of the pro-death lobby.
 
“I hate to break it to you, but wars can be justified. Your problem is that you do not accept that the unborn are actually PEOPLE. Until you accept that simple fact, you will be accepting of the lies of the pro-death lobby.”

Again, no answers and just buzz words. And also 2 people in a body? Math is not right, one has to yield.
 
zalo said:
"

Again, no answers and just buzz words. And also 2 people in a body? Math is not right,** one has to yield**.
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Which normally happens around the ninth month-ask you Mom to explain it to you.
 
When what JESUS wants becomes more important to you than what YOU want then you have the privilage of calling yourself CATHOLIC. Since we know he is antiabortion, we can trust completely that a vote or support in any form for an abortionist or politician that votes that way, is not what he wants. If you feel obliged to support a pro abortionist person, you should not call youself CATHOLIC. EITHER YOU BELIEVE HE IS REAL OR YOU DON`T. Garland
 
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