It is a Sin to Vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates

[zalo]

“Which normally happens around the ninth month-ask you Mom to explain it to you.”

Nice try, estesbob, but cannot fly, it’s beside the point. Why? Because the debate concerns not the greatest majority of cases when the interests of those 2 coincide i.e. mother carries on the pregnancy and delivers, like our respective mothers did, but the much smaller minority when they are opposed. In that case I think mother should go first, she has been there longer: first come, first served, right? Also she knows better, it’s HER body.

Still nobody taking up my original questions though. Sad!

 

[donna_jean]

Hello,
Please help me understand???

1. I am trying to understand if it is a normal occurrence for a Pope to tell the Catholic people publicly to vote for the candidate who said he is “pro-life”.

I did not get a good feeling about the Pope declaring this to Catholics because it seemed to me it might be crossing over the line of separation of church and state. I don’t mean this disrespectfully. I was just really surprised. Perhaps it is something that Popes have done for centuries and I have been ignorant. I do get the point that abortion is life and we need to support life before anything else.

I

 

[CWBetts]

“I hate to break it to you, but wars can be justified. Your problem is that you do not accept that the unborn are actually PEOPLE. Until you accept that simple fact, you will be accepting of the lies of the pro-death lobby.”

Again, no answers and just buzz words. And also 2 people in a body? Math is not right, one has to yield.

An unborn child has its own DNA, unique from the mother’s. This makes it an individual member of the Human Species. Scientifically, it is a person. Metaphysically, it is a person as well, as it contains the traits required to make it a person. To unjustifiably kill a person is murder. Therefore abortion is murder. The unborn child is a person dependant on the mohter for survival, but this does not make it less human. You have asked no real questions, only empty arguments to justify the slaughter of the most innocent of all.

 

[Worthy5]

Garland;6525723]When what JESUS wants becomes more important to you than what YOU want then you have the privilage of calling yourself CATHOLIC. Since we know he is antiabortion, we can trust completely that a vote or support in any form for an abortionist or politician that votes that way, is not what he wants. If you feel obliged to support a pro abortionist person, you should not call youself CATHOLIC. EITHER YOU BELIEVE HE IS REAL OR YOU DON`T. Garland

Well, that is interesting Garland. But history has shown that many people think they know what " Jesus" wants or what the Bible means right.

Some protestants believe the Pope is the antichrist as indicated in the Bible and the Church as the “Whore of Babylon”-------- so should being Catholic be outlawed too? Should every good protestant not every vote for a Catholic politician?

Jesus would surely want everyone to have a decent standard of living-----should not the govt guarantee $ 100.00 minimum hourly wage for everyone.

Regards,

 

[Worthy5]

CWBetts;6525817]A The unborn child is a person dependant on the mother for survival,

Yes indeed it is, so why is the govt taking responsibility for this by using its police power. Why is it not on just the mother?

but this does not make it less human.

No, but it means govt may decide that is will use other means to try to help protect it than the use of the police power.

Regards,

 

[CWBetts]

Yes indeed it is, so why is the govt taking responsibility for this by using its police power. Why is it not on just the mother?

No, but it means govt may decide that is will use other means to try to help protect it than the use of the police power.

Regards,

oh here we go with the anti-government paranoia

 

[Worthy5]

=CWBetts;6526395]oh here we go with the anti-government paranoia

Limited govt CW. limited govt.

 

[47junior]

I don’t believe it is a sin if you don’t believe in abortion but you vote for the best candatate even when the candatate believes in abortion. What about canditates that don’t believe in abortion but believes the goverment should cut benifits for low income people and cut benifits for the elderly and poor.
Please answer me for I can’t see the differents.
47junior[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

 

[estesbob]

I don’t believe it is a sin if you don’t believe in abortion but you vote for the best candatate even when the candatate believes in abortion. What about canditates that don’t believe in abortion but believes the goverment should cut benifits for low income people and cut benifits for the elderly and poor.
Please answer me for I can’t see the differents.

47junior

You are not required to vote for the latter-you cant vote for the former.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

If Catholic were obliged to vote solely according to the issue of abortion, then they would so open to manipulation…
there are other things to take into consideration, not just abortion

D’ya think?

Seriously, I find 99.999999% of Republican (ever marching rightward towards authoritarianism for the people and liberty for the corporations – yeah, I spill the beans here, don’t I ) ideology loathsome. Guess what…“pro-life” is not fundamental to Republican ideology. That’s what people don’t see.

Of course, I love this thought experiement:

Imagine an alternate universe where the Democratic party is the pro-life party. Spock has a beard but is not evil . Based on the ideology, do you think for an instant that Christians, as a whole, would vote Republican or Democratic? Absolutely not. In fact, those Christians in our mirror universe not only vote pro-life, they argue for a more liberal point of view when it comes to economic issues. Why? Because Christians, as a whole, have been trained to follow the issue of pro-life without question.

Imagine yet another alternate universe where “Roe v. Wade” never happened. Sarek and Amanda never meet, so no Spock . I think the Christians, as a whole, would tend toward Democratic but not completely. Remember, before Roe v. Wade, which political party was associated more with the people of the Church? I believe it was the Democratic Party.

Now, I’m not saying that I support the Democratic agenda 100%, but I have seen too much nonsense coming from the Republican party (that’ll make me popular!) for me to trust anything coming from that direction anymore.

However, I did my solemn duty, held my nose (and my gorge) and voted for McCain. I hated doing it with every fiber of my being, to be honest. It didn’t really matter, though as I live in California and, um…I think California was going to go Democratic no matter what.

 

[Teh_End_Is_NEAR]

You are not required to vote for the latter-you cant vote for the former.

What about politicians who merely claim to be pro-life to score political points? What if there are no candidates that meet your stringent pro life requirements. What about other issues that involve human life, e.g. the death penalty or war.

 

[estesbob]

What about politicians who merely claim to be pro-life to score political points? What if there are no candidates that meet your stringent pro life requirements. What about other issues that involve human life, e.g. the death penalty or war.

The Church has made it very clear that there is no moral equivalency between support for the death penatly and/or war and abotion. Abortion is an intrinsic evil that can never be supported under any circusmstance either directely or indirectly. The same can not be said for war and/or the death penalty As the Holy Father said:

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

I agree with you about politicans who claim to be pro-life to score political points-we have only to look at the allegedly “pro-life” democrats who supported a health care bill opposed by the USCCB and every Pro-life organizartion in the country (except the ill named “Democrats for life” )to see the truth of this statement.

 

[csuliman]

I have some questions:

Where do we get the 50 million number? At what stage of life where these fetuse aborted? I mean are we talking about chemical abortions in the first week or are we talking about a third trimester child.

I cannot buy the argument that a fertilized egg automatically becomes a full human with all the right of personhood. Should there not be a requirement for a certain level of brain development, or at least the appearance of brain cells, or even the differentiation of cells?

But on to the point of this post: I would vote for Obama over the ridiculously incompetent team of Palin-McCain any day. Just the thought of Palin having the chance to become president ends shivers down my spine. I voted Conservative in the Canadian elections, but I cannot believe that the most powerfull country in the world would vote for a know-nothing like Palin.

In my opinion, one should consider all the circumstances and views of a politician before voting. Not just hang up on the issue of abortion.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

D’ya think?

Seriously, I find 99.999999% of Republican (ever marching rightward towards authoritarianism for the people and liberty for the corporations – yeah, I spill the beans here, don’t I ) ideology loathsome. Guess what…“pro-life” is not fundamental to Republican ideology. That’s what people don’t see.

Amen! But it was not your “duty” to vote McCain. Contrary to what many here say, it is not a sin to vote for a pro-abortion candidate if you have “proportionate reasons” for doing so.

They (here at Republican Catholic Answers Forum) will say that there cannot be any proportionate reason for voting for a pro-abortion candidate. This is false. If this were true, and one always could never vote for a pro-abortion candidate when there was a pro-life candidate running, don’t you think we would have heard as much from the Vatican?

Don’t quote me numbers, God is not a utilitarian. Don’t tell me that war and poverty and social justice cannot be proportional because reasonable minds may differ. This reasonable mind likely differs from your reasonable mind, and I believe it is more “moral” to elect a politician concerned with the poor, the working class, the environment, community, and peace, than a corporate shill who knows the secret Catholic password.

And, lo and behold, we haven’t seen astatement from the Vatican telling us how to vote. The Magesterium permits us to assess the whole candidate, and to use the reason God gave us to choose a candidate that, based on that candidate’s (1) views (2) past actions and (3) office held will best serve our country.

I (usually) vote Democrat, and I receive communion each week in the state of grace. I’ve extended an open invitation to anybody on this forum to PM me and get my name and address to inform my bishop if anybody believes I’m causing scandal or committing mortal sin, and have yet to be taken up on that offer.

God bless America!

 

[Polycarp1]

Isn’t that like saying" while I disagree with abortion, I don’t mind driving someone to the clinic to have one as I’m not responsible for what they do once they go inside?"

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Isn’t that like saying" while I disagree with abortion, I don’t mind driving someone to the clinic to have one as I’m not responsible for what they do once they go inside?"

No, it’s not.

 

[donna_jean]

I posted a bit ago about wanting to know if Pope’s in the past declared who Catholic’s should vote for?? If anyone knows…

With all good conscience and deep praying for many months prior to voting, I, a Catholic, republican, voted for Obama because I felt he was the most pro-life of the two candidates. I also thought he was the best choice in doing something about the high number of abortions in this country. He is stirring the pot for change which is something we Catholics need to end abortion.

I was born to an unwed mother 52 years ago today! I was placed for adoption. Tonight, I am giving a talk supporting adoption even though my adoptive family was a family I could not turn to when I was a teen, became pregnant and aborted the baby which has been a life long pain to overcome. So, you would think that my choice would have been differently in voting. I feel I made the correct choice.

Yes, I was scrutinized, basically told to leave my church by some, and turned away by others which hurt but I know in my heart, I voted for the right candidate for pro-life. I don’t think this was a sin and, I feel God would say it is not.

I feel it is a sin to tell others they have sinned when in their own conscious they have not.

Dear Heavenly Father,
May we support our brothers and sisters in Christ, love them, and be what You would to them if You were here on earth.
In Jesus Name,
Amen

 

[CWBetts]

I posted a bit ago about wanting to know if Pope’s in the past declared who Catholic’s should vote for?? If anyone knows…

With all good conscience and deep praying for many months prior to voting, I, a Catholic, republican, voted for Obama because I felt he was the most pro-life of the two candidates. I also thought he was the best choice in doing something about the high number of abortions in this country. He is stirring the pot for change which is something we Catholics need to end abortion.

I was born to an unwed mother 52 years ago today! I was placed for adoption. Tonight, I am giving a talk supporting adoption even though my adoptive family was a family I could not turn to when I was a teen, became pregnant and aborted the baby which has been a life long pain to overcome. So, you would think that my choice would have been differently in voting. I feel I made the correct choice.

Yes, I was scrutinized, basically told to leave my church by some, and turned away by others which hurt but I know in my heart, I voted for the right candidate for pro-life. I don’t think this was a sin and, I feel God would say it is not.

I feel it is a sin to tell others they have sinned when in their own conscious they have not.

Dear Heavenly Father,
May we support our brothers and sisters in Christ, love them, and be what You would to them if You were here on earth.
In Jesus Name,
Amen

Pardon me for asking this, but how could you possibly think the most pro-abortion president that has been elected since Roe v. Wade, who publicly vowed to pass FOCA, which would overturn every restriction on abortion, who publicly said it was a mistake to vote to save Terry Scahivo’s life, was more proe live than John McCain? I just don’t see how someone could be THAT ill-informed.

 

[estesbob]

I posted a bit ago about wanting to know if Pope’s in the past declared who Catholic’s should vote for?? If anyone knows…

With all good conscience and deep praying for many months prior to voting, I, a Catholic, republican, voted for Obama because I felt he was the most pro-life of the two candidates. I also thought he was the best choice in doing something about the high number of abortions in this country. He is stirring the pot for change which is something we Catholics need to end abortion.

I was born to an unwed mother 52 years ago today! I was placed for adoption. Tonight, I am giving a talk supporting adoption even though my adoptive family was a family I could not turn to when I was a teen, became pregnant and aborted the baby which has been a life long pain to overcome. So, you would think that my choice would have been differently in voting. I feel I made the correct choice.

Yes, I was scrutinized, basically told to leave my church by some, and turned away by others which hurt but I know in my heart, I voted for the right candidate for pro-life. I don’t think this was a sin and, I feel God would say it is not.

I feel it is a sin to tell others they have sinned when in their own conscious they have not.

Dear Heavenly Father,
May we support our brothers and sisters in Christ, love them, and be what You would to them if You were here on earth.
In Jesus Name,
Amen

The Church never says who we have to vote for. It makes it clear, however who we can not vote for. Archbishop Chaput directly confronted the idea that it was OK to vote for Obama becuase he was really the most prto-life of the canidates:

I believe that Senator Obama, whatever his other talents, is the most committed ”abortion-rights” presidential candidate of either major party since the Roe v. Wade abortion decision in 1973. Despite what Prof. Kmiec suggests, the party platform Senator Obama runs on this year is not only aggressively ”pro-choice;” it has also removed any suggestion that killing an unborn child might be a regrettable thing. On the question of homicide against the unborn child – and let’s remember that the great Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer explicitly called abortion ”murder” – the Democratic platform that emerged from Denver in August 2008 is clearly anti-life.
Prof. Kmiec argues that there are defensible motives to support Senator Obama. Speaking for myself, I do not know any proportionate reason that could outweigh more than 40 million unborn children killed by abortion and the many millions of women deeply wounded by the loss and regret abortion creates.

To suggest – as some Catholics do – that Senator Obama is this year’s ”real” prolife candidate requires a peculiar kind of self-hypnosis, or moral confusion, or worse. To portray the 2008 Democratic Party presidential ticket as the preferred ”prolife” option is to subvert what the word ”prolife” means. Anyone interested in Senator Obama’s record on abortion and related issues should simply read Prof. Robert P. George’s Public Discourse essay from earlier this week, ”Obama’s Abortion Extremism,” and his follow-up article, ”Obama and Infanticide.” They say everything that needs to be said.

-------------------------------------

It is bad enough to have voted for the most pro-abortion President in history. To follow that up with giving a speechsupporting abortion is so contrary to the teachings of the Church it talkes on breah away. I hope you do represent yourself as in anyway being in accoradnace with the teachings of the Cgurch when you give such a speech.

 

[CPA2]

I cannot buy the argument that a fertilized egg automatically becomes a full human with all the right of personhood. Should there not be a requirement for a certain level of brain development, or at least the appearance of brain cells, or even the differentiation of cells?

QUOTE]

Buy it! Human life begins at conception!

When does life “begin?”

Science is beginning to answer that question. However, there are those who try to separate research about the unborn from abortion. We end up with fideism when we separate beliefs from supporting evidence. The Catholic Church always has rejected fideism.

Abortion is an “abominable crime.” It is an injustice of the first order. The Catholic Church only has one position on abortion. It is plain for the whole world to see. There is no room for interpretations to justify abortion. There are no evaluations to justify the crime. Abortion is the deliberate targeting and destruction of a child.

Additionally, it is a sin for a Catholic to knowingly vote for a candidate who supports abortion. I cannot, in good conscience, vote for anyone in the Democrat Party because, as I understand it, the Democrat Party supports abortion. A Christian conscience does not permit me to vote for a candidate or political program that contradicts the fundamental content of faith and morals. I take my Christian conscience to the polls when I vote!

Research is showing that the unborn are looking more and more like new born babies.

“If the fetus is beyond 20 weeks of gestation, I would assume that there will be pain caused to the fetus. And I believe it will be excruciating pain caused to the fetus (Dr. Anand in Leroy Carhart, M.D. v. Ashcroft).” There is the Unborn Child Pain Awareness Act before Congress that we need to support.

Additionally, there is fetal memory. New born babies remember music that was played while they were in the mother’s womb (Stephen Evans).

The following is from someone else on this forum:

Personally, the most scientific and logical argument for the life present in a mother’s womb is the following:
• When an egg is fertilized by sperm, the two gametic cells become a zygote containing a genetic code completely different from that of the mother or father.
• This zygote at that moment is in every sense of the word, “alive.” It is undergoing the necessary metabolic processes needed to sustain life.
• By removing the zygote or the cells that the zygote transforms into during embryonic growth, a human life is terminated.