It is a Sin to Vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates

[CMatt25]

Thanks. I still don’t know who he is, and why someone quoted a response of mine on this thread and referred to him.

Colin Donovan, VP of Moral Theology for CAF apparently said one is allowed to calculate the practical results of their vote in a particular election. Maybe you’re too closely aligned with him for the comfort of whoever quoted your response and referred to him. There was discussion by some about writing to him to inform him his morals were outside Church teaching.

 

[diggerdomer]

Colin Donovan, VP of Moral Theology for CAF apparently said one is allowed to calculate the practical results of their vote in a particular election. Maybe you’re too closely aligned with him for the comfort of whoever quoted your response and referred to him. There was discussion by some about writing to him to inform him his morals were outside Church teaching.

I have no idea who he is. I’m aligned with the Catholic Church, and the Bishops.

 

[CMatt25]

I have no idea who he is. I’m aligned with the Catholic Church, and the Bishops.

Good for you. That’s fine. Doesn’t matter to me. I was merely trying to explain who he was. Peace and have a good night.

 

[CPA2]

We Catholics believe we know human life begins with a soul at the moment of conception. But if you would actually take the time to study the views of some other Christians on this besides Catholic, you might understand why our beliefs do not determine all reality on this. And you might have a better understanding of why they have arrived at their views.

My position is not that I am Pope. My position is I have not walked in the shoes of a woman who has made the difficult decision to abort. And unlike apparently the Pope, I don’t presume to know her conscience as it is with God.

QUOTE]

Other slogans of the pro-abortionists are, “If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament,” and “The prohibition of abortion discriminates against women.” Are you aware that the pro-abortionists took this line of argument to the Supreme Court and lost? It is the pro-abortion forces that have framed abortion as a “woman’s issue.” Women, as a class, are not discriminated against by the pro-life movement. I am a human being, and as a man I have the right to stand up and say “no” to the killing of my fellow human beings.

If you want to believe that a child in the womb does not have a soul, that is your business. It has nothing to do with abortion. The law does not care about your beliefs. The law regulates actions. It is unjust to extend your argument by saying that it is OK to kill a child because you believe it does not have a soul. It would be equally unjust to kill you because someone believes that you do not have a soul.

 

[CPA2]

And I’m not so keen on what the Church says either. I’m looking more at what Christ says about the issues He emphasized. That’s where my conscience lies. God bless and peace.

A Catholic is free to accept all of the nonessential beliefs that he wishes. However, there is only one law that he must obey. A Catholic must accept the eternal truths of Christ.

Catholics prefer the unchangeable truth that man has an unchangeable God. The Catholic Church has been doing some solid, hard thinking for twenty centuries. The Catholic Church has built up dogmas. However, the Church built its house on a rock, the eternal truths of Christ.

Poverty and abortion are not separate issues! I do not think that we should start with feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, housing the homeless.

Let’s start with opposition to abortion. There are many who praise Mother Theresa for her work with the poor. However, they do not share her opposition to abortion. Failure to understand her opposition to abortion is also a failure to understand her work for the poor. The two concepts are inseparable.

Mother Theresa’s understanding of poverty was much more profound than most of us realize. She would often say that we were made to love and be loved. Poverty is the failure to love. The height of poverty is the failure to recognize another person as a human being, and legally destroying that human being.

What about the poverty of the unborn? The unborn babies are the weakest and the most defenseless. Unborn babies are “out-of-sight and out-of mind.” They do not speak. They do not march, and they do not stand up for their rights. Unborn babies cannot even make an impact on our minds and our hearts. That is why I stand up for the rights of unborn babies!

 

[CPA2]

The Catholic Church however begins with an extreme unrealistic position. A 9 yr old raped in Brazil? What do we do? Oh well lets at first excommunicate her mother for not forcing her 9 yr old child to carry twins. As if the leaders of the Catholic Church had walked in their shoes. While it’s been a reality some in the hierarchy covered up rape, I sincerely doubt any leader of the Catholic Church has been raped and impregnated. Now if I’m not mistaken, I thought I saw where the excommunication was eventually lifted. And if so thank God the Church came to its senses.
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First, I absolutely HATE when people use the rape scenario as a reason to keep abortion legal. Only one-tenth of one percent of abortions are performed due to rape.

Secondly, where is it written that a child who is violently raped and happens to get pregnant (again, a somewhat unlikely scenario) has to keep the baby? What is wrong with placing the child up for adoption? Has everyone completely forgotten about adoption?

Third, when is it acceptable to kill a human being as a result of someone else’s crime? That innocent baby in the womb did not do the raping. Why should he/she pay the price?

If my daughter were raped, she would carry that baby to term. We would then make a decision as to whether or not that child would be better off in an adoptive home or remain in our home.

Check out the stats of women who regret their abortions. They have problems with relationships, drug abuse, suicidal thoughts and tendencies, depression, not to mention the physical damage abortion does to the body (greatly increasing chances of contracting breast cancer, danger of not being able to conceive children at a later date). I would NEVER subject my daughter to that lifetime of horror. Carrying the baby to term is only 9 months of inconvenience.

 

[CPA2]

But see the initial reaction showed the problem with the Catholic Church to begin with. Right away only black and white. No gray. And that is what is not reality.

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It sounds like you make up your own theology. I wonder if you perceive the moral reality of abortion?

The most powerful words in the Creed of the Catholic Church are, “I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth…” We live in God’s world, not our world. God is the source of the universe and our existence. Our task is to understand and come to terms with that. We are to respect and live in the world as God intended.

Christians form their conscience through education, prayer and the teaching of Jesus Christ. Conscience and truth go together. Society is adrift on a sea of hopelessness if you try to form your conscience without reference to God’s truths.

The Catholic Church taught that abortion is a great evil long before science made it clear that each individual is genetically unique. The Catholic Church still teaches this, even in the face of lack of respect for the sanctity of human life.

People today base their relative truth on opinions, and their opinions are based on feelings. There are millions of variations of relative truth. The logic goes something like this: Your truth is relative. It has to do with your circumstances. Your truth is related to you personally. It may not be related to the lifestyle others.

People say you must be informed. We are told that you must educate yourself so that you can know the issues, and how to form your opinions. There are many people believing differently, however, and they all believe their beliefs are right. They base their beliefs on their own relative truth.

Society is guided by all of these different relative truths. Society thinks that everyone must live by his own truths. All of these different relative truths are based on nothing more than what a person feels.

There is no absolute truth in today’s world. There are many relative truths, however. Since there are no absolutes, there are many things that you can believe. You can believe this way, or you can believe that way. This is the belief system of most people in society today.

St. Thomas Aquinas gave the classical definition of truth. He said, “It is the conformity of the mind with objective reality…Every truth, if it is really truth, presents itself as universal, even if it is not the whole truth. If something is true, then it must be true for all people and at all times.”

Some people say that there is no truth with a capital “T”? Is it true that there is no truth? If you believe that statement, then you are between the devil and the deep blue sea. It is what St. Thomas Aquinas would call a self-contradiction (“contradiction in actu exercito”).

As I have said in other threads, truth is immutable. It does not change through the ages. Truth does not have legs on it. It does not move around with the changing of the times. Truth cannot be denied.

“It seems to me that one must bring men back…to the hope of finding the truth (St. Thomas Aquinas).” Sixteen centuries later we are at a similar crossroads. (I read the book, Summa Theologiae, by St. Thomas Aquinas when I was a teenager.)

I will go back to my argument that the moon is made of cheese, if you believe it is made of cheese. I was making fun of relativism. The relativist would have us believe that each of us has our own version of truth. Many of you have pointed this out to me in numerous threads. Relativism is another “ism” that is self-contradictory and untenable.

At first blush relativism seems broadminded. Let’s agree to disagree. **However, if truth is universal, immutable, objective and inescapable, then we can’t agree to disagree, can we? **

Relativism is intolerant. It is intolerant of truth. **Relativism says that truth is not universal, immutable, objective and inescapable. **

Either truth is true for all people for all ages, or it is false. The relativist does not fall into the trap of the skeptic by saying that truth does not exist. The relativist does not deny the existence of truth. The relativist falls into the trap of believing that truth is relative.

Here is the rub: The relativist believes that his opinion is correct. Is everyone else wrong who believes that truth is universal, immutable, objective and inescapable? Using the classical definition of truth, **truth must be unconditionally true and it must be true for everyone! ** There is a self-contradiction here. The relativist is saying that it is unconditionally true that truth is relative!

 

[elts1956]

Elts, I hardly conclude you need me nor the ECFs to interpret Christ for you. CWBetts is actually putting a word into Christ’s mouth which He never once spoke in Scripture. But still maybe you’d like to check out more Church history before you conclude anything about the past 2000 yrs. So you are sola scriptura?St. Augustine in the Enchiridion said “But who is not rather disposed to think that unformed fetuses perish like seeds which have not fructified”. Unformed fetuses? Fetuses might actually need to fructify or grow from their embryonic state before we can call it murder? Of course St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas were time travelers and knew of the strides science would make in identifying human zygotes, fetus, embryos etc. Your arguments hold no water and have been discounted by the Church itself many times on the issue of ensoulment etc. Oh, that’s right, I forgot, you have your own Church. It’s called Sola Scriptura and you do the interpreting.

St Thomas Aquinas maintained that the sin in abortion was not homicide unless the fetus was ensouled, and thus, a human being. Aquinas had said the fetus is first endowed with a vegetative soul, then an animal soul, and then — when its body is developed — a rational soul. And since we don’t know when a baby is ensouled, perhaps we should kill it at birth? Go for it.

Pope Gregory XIV issued his Sedes Apostolica, in which he advised church officials, "where no homicide or no animated fetus is involved, not to punish more strictly than the sacred canons or civil legislation does. Pope Gregory wasn’t a scientist either.
God bless and peace.

faculty.cua.edu/pennington/Law111/CatholicHistory.htm

 

[elts1956]

So there are some human lives that are more objectively valuable to God than others?

You are twisting my words. I am surprised at you. Objective TRUTH digger.

According to Rev. Thomas D. Williams, L. C. there are six characteistics distinguishing abortion from related social phenomena.

1. Abortion deals spcifically with the destruction of human life.
   2 The sheer magnitude of the problem
2. It’s legal status. Unlike other forms of killing of human life which have laws to prevent such , abortion enjoys legal sanction.
3. The arbitrary division of human beings into those worthy of life and those unworthy.
4. Abortion even distinguishes itself from other forms of medical ethics, such as euthanasia and assisted suicide, by the absence of any possibility of informed consent.
5. Finally abortion differs from other major social ills such as unemployment and divorce because of it invisibility.

Father Thomas D. Williams, L.C. is Dean of Theology and profesor of Catholic Social Doctrine at Rome’s Regina Apostolorum University and auth of, most recently, Spiritual Progress: Becoming the Christian you Want To Be (2007)

Check for the website of Infant in My Womb Leaped For Joy if you want to read the full context.

 

[elts1956]

So there are some human lives that are more objectively valuable to God than others?

Of course they teach a hierarchy. They clearly identify intrinsic evils as distinct from those that aren’t. Did you read it, really? Carefully, prayerfully, and again, with (name removed by moderator)ut from others? Did you talk about this teaching with your parish priest, or others on parish staff?

I read it well enough to know it gave an easy out for Cafeteria catholics to vote their feelings rather than Church teaching. Show me where it says one should not support a candidate who has an abortion platform. Show me where it outright said the #1 issue in this past POTUS election was abortion. Abortion has been shoved under the table. It isn’t even included in the USCCB list of issues of Social Justice. It is separated from the rest of life issues and given little attention. The Parish Staff would probably be just as confused as the Bishops. Yes, that is right. I don’t like progressive clergy who try to stuff the wrong end of Social Justice down my throat. How many people do you think know what an Intrinsic Evil is? Apparently about 56% of the Catholic population here in the US don’t give a hill of beans about absolutes, or they have never heard of them.

 

[Garland]

elts, thank ALLMIGHTY GOD for you and the insight you give to this insane world. It comes down to, do I believe in the JESUS of the CHURCH, or the protestant version that keeps changing his mind on whatever the thought of the day happens to be. If GOD had wanted me to interpet for my self he most certainly would not have said “he who hears you hears me and him who sent me”, I am appalled at the twist and turns people take to justify thier vote for the most evil party and its leaders ever to be in this country. Your words speak of eternal christian TRUTHS, and thiers of politics. Please christian brothers and sisters think of the little ones crying before God for justice. How much innocent blood must be poured on the liberal, progressive,[or any other name, your choice] altar before CHRISTIANS awake to the HORROWS of the party of death and make a choice for true CHANGE. A change that embraces ALL HUMAN LIFE, born and unborn. There are dems who support life. If you vote for them only, you can return the TRUE DEMOCRATIC party to its roots. If there is one thing all politicians understand, its being defeated for a reason. If that reason is pro-abortion, you will see it abandoned quickly if they see their defeat in the making. I pray daily for all and for myself that we can truly be the AMERICA where all people are truly free and respected for being gifts of allmighty GOD to each other. AND THEY WILL KNOW WE ARE CHRISTIAN BY OUR LOVE. Love for the unborn as well as the born. Garland

 

[CMatt25]

Anyone who supporst abortion does not follow Jesus

If you mean anyone who is pro choice is not a Christian, wow you should probably tell the Pope to revamp whom the Church calls Christians in his non-church ecclesial communities.

 

[CMatt25]

Other slogans of the pro-abortionists are, “If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament,” and “The prohibition of abortion discriminates against women.” Are you aware that the pro-abortionists took this line of argument to the Supreme Court and lost? It is the pro-abortion forces that have framed abortion as a “woman’s issue.” Women, as a class, are not discriminated against by the pro-life movement. I am a human being, and as a man I have the right to stand up and say “no” to the killing of my fellow human beings.

If you want to believe that a child in the womb does not have a soul, that is your business. It has nothing to do with abortion. The law does not care about your beliefs. The law regulates actions. It is unjust to extend your argument by saying that it is OK to kill a child because you believe it does not have a soul. It would be equally unjust to kill you because someone believes that you do not have a soul.

Who said I didn’t believe the soul is in the womb?

Anyway you’re mixing apples and oranges when discussing faith beliefs about the unknown of what for certain occurs at the moment of conception, embryo, fetus, baby and in regard to the soul being present at the very moment of conception… with a walking, breathing, human being who has already been born whom someone would want to kill in your scenario.

For some good slogans I direct you to a related thread going on. Some good ones there. Like women want to beat their children anytime they want and pro choice people are racist.

 

[CMatt25]

I do not think that we should start with feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, housing the homeless.

Let’s start with opposition to abortion… I stand up for the rights of unborn babies!

That’s good and ok start and stand up first for what you want. Nevermind Christ did not address the word abortion directly and it never appears in Scripture. While He certainly addressed the others of which you are not starting with.

Were you at the parish around the corner from me standing in protest of war? Christ did speak of the peacemakers being blessed too you know. Or in favor of quality, affordable healthcare to take care of the sick? Oh no you could not have been because they did not have such protests. Only abortion. Other issues are hardly mentioned in several parishes I have frequented. Well I’ll take that back. The priest at the corner parish did say his answer to the poor is simply to get a job. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

First, I absolutely HATE when people use the rape scenario as a reason to keep abortion legal. Only one-tenth of one percent of abortions are performed due to rape.

Secondly, where is it written that a child who is violently raped and happens to get pregnant (again, a somewhat unlikely scenario) has to keep the baby? What is wrong with placing the child up for adoption? Has everyone completely forgotten about adoption?

If my daughter were raped, she would carry that baby to term. We would then make a decision as to whether or not that child would be better off in an adoptive home or remain in our home.

And the Church then wants to outlaw choice for even one tenth of 1% who find themselves in that position. That’s what I mean by they will not budge and expects everyone to totally come to their position.

And that would be your choice. And nothing wrong with adoption if that’s your choice. But even though I don’t know you, I’ll bet the child would have a loving home with you. I pray though you never have to face your daughter being raped and subsequent decisions. God bless you and peace.

 

[scipio337]

That’s good and ok start and stand up first for what you want. Nevermind Christ did not address the word abortion directly and it never appears in Scripture. While He certainly addressed the others of which you are not starting with.

Were you at the parish around the corner from me standing in protest of war? Christ did speak of the peacemakers being blessed too you know. Or in favor of quality, affordable healthcare to take care of the sick? Oh no you could not have been because they did not have such protests. Only abortion. Other issues are hardly mentioned in several parishes I have frequented. Well I’ll take that back. The priest at the corner parish did say his answer to the poor is simply to get a job. Peace.

Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.

Matt, it seems that you have to go through a considerable amount of mental gymnastics to justify your position on abortion, regardless of Church teaching.

You have your reasons for believing what you do, but please know that they are not Catholic. As for the other issues you discuss, the Church had no official position on many recent wars, public healthcare, etc. What a priest may say or not say about them is moot.

The Church DOES has an official position on abortion, as an absolute evil.

 

[estesbob]

Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.

Matt, it seems that you have to go through a considerable amount of mental gymnastics to justify your position on abortion, regardless of Church teaching.

You have your reasons for believing what you do, but please know that they are not Catholic. As for the other issues you discuss, the Church had no official position on many recent wars, public healthcare, etc. What a priest may say or not say about them is moot.

The Church DOES has an official position on abortion, as an absolute evil.

You are now going to enter the twilight zone as he tells you he meets the definition of a Catholic , the church is wrong and he knows this because Jesus told him so.

 

[CMatt25]

CPA, regarding your discourse on relativism, since there is one truth, it is not relativism but instead knowing the difference between faith and belief and absolute 100% certain provable knowledge. The trouble is fallible human beings think their faith and beliefs are absolutely right and that they for certain have every “i” dotted and “t” crossed perfectly. We will know everything for certain if the faith you and I share is correct and the Truth He proclaimed Himself to be (Jn 14:6), comes again.

And I have faith, as I know you do as well, that it will be done. God bless you my friend in Christ. Remember it is He Whom unites us that is far greater than any differences we might have or walls between us. He is greater than any walls. (Eph 2:14) Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

You are now going to enter the twilight zone as he tells you he meets the definition of a Catholic , the church is wrong and he knows this because Jesus told him so.

No the question is if you and others accept the Church’s definition of who is a Catholic. And if not, and many here seem not to, how is that not dissent?

 

[CPA2]

Who said I didn’t believe the soul is in the womb?

Anyway you’re mixing apples and oranges when discussing faith beliefs about the unknown of what for certain occurs at the moment of conception, embryo, fetus, baby and in regard to the soul being present at the very moment of conception… with a walking, breathing, human being who has already been born whom someone would want to kill in your scenario.

QUOTE]

Knowledge and reason are two different things. I cite reason.

I think that it is reasonable to assume that the unborn baby is a human being. I beg you to answer the question, When does the fetus become a human being? Is it at birth?

You have not documented your argument with any studies on fetal research. You discount the whole thrust of scientific research. Studies are showing that the unborn are looking more and more like human beings. There are more and more studies showing the likelihood of fetal pain.

I think that we need to consider the experience of the aborted baby, and not be so prone to discount the pain of a fetus as inconsequential. I think that it is also appropriate to consider the brutality of the abortion procedure.

When does life “begin?”

Science is beginning to answer that question. However, there are those who try to separate research about the unborn from abortion. We end up with fideism when we separate beliefs from supporting evidence. The Catholic Church always has rejected fideism.

Research is showing that the unborn are looking more and more like new born babies.

“If the fetus is beyond 20 weeks of gestation, I would assume that there will be pain caused to the fetus. And I believe it will be excruciating pain caused to the fetus (Dr. Anand in Leroy Carhart, M.D. v. Ashcroft).” There is the Unborn Child Pain Awareness Act before Congress that we need to support.

Additionally, there is fetal memory. New born babies remember music that was played while they were in the mother’s womb (Stephen Evans).