It is a Sin to Vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates

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CMatt25 said:
Ahhhh see there ya go. Centrist Dem Bill Clinton was POTUS then and he led you away from liberalism. 😛
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Clinton was no centrist. He expanded abortion, raised taxes. and made attempts at centralizing health care. He was a socialist.
 
CallistusPM said:
17June: St.Gregory Barbarigo,BC
“The Tridentine Mass; the most beautiful thing this side of heaven.”

I believe that most members of this forum are intelligent, rational and cogent thinking individuals. And, yes, we do tend to get bogged down with minutiae concerning many theological issues ( recall:how many angels can dance on the head of a pin)? But, I submit to you that there are many individuals out there who could care less about the finer points of such topics as abortion, birth control, papal authority, Catholic Church history, tradition and orthodoxy, liberal vs conservative, the influences of bishops, euthanasia, the church’s current sex scandal, etc, etc, and etc… These folks are only concerned with making a living, caring for their immediate families and trying to stay above water financially. They do not wish to become embroiled with discussions that involve making their day to day lives more miserable, like worrying about which candidate to support based on his/her stand on abortion, whether or not they should use contraception; the list goes on. Abortion is not their main issue when they vote IF they vote at all! These folks are so involved with just trying to live; they don’t even know or care who the Vice President is, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are strangers to them. Benedict XVI . . . who is he? They don’t know nor do they care of the differences between the Supreme Court and Traffic Court! You tell them they should not use contraceptives or try and reason with them that human life begins with conception and be ready for them to tell you where to go. They really don’t care. I know of what I speak. I have experienced the darker side and believe me, the topics discussed here are the last thing these individuals care about. We cannot relate to them; we cannot reason with them. They don’t have our values and once more, they don’t want our values.
Let’s face it, most members of this forum are idealists and religious zealots. It is a place for us to express our feelings and ideas and discuss theology and ethics in an academic setting. I sincerely hope none of us is under the illusion that we are going to change much of what the world and/or our country perceives, especially during these dire economic times. Often our message, God’s message, is not easy nor is it a panacea in solving life’s problems. We must take up Christ’s cross and follow a long, narrow road. We cannot talk of the afterlife to many; they suffer now. How can they conceive of hell? They have no concept of heaven/hell as we know it. The forum’s vast topics mean nothing to them. Polemics here are just fancy words and rhetoric.
Members of this forum appear to me to be well educated and dedicated to HMC. Education is the key. It is going to take many years to fully educate most of the world’s people. There is vast improvement needed even in our own country. We have come a long way since the birth of our Savior but we have still a long way to go. We sit here and debate the finer nuances of life and religion. Believe me, there are many we don’t relate to.
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Many good points in there. And on that note perhaps we should end this thread’s debate here. And I say :amen: God bless you and peace.
 
CWBetts said:
Clinton was no centrist. He expanded abortion, raised taxes. and made attempts at centralizing health care. He was a socialist.
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When Clinton rescinded the Mexico City policy the funds released were used not only for abortions but also to pay for over 18,000 forced sterilizations in Peru. If those are the actions of a centrist I would hate to see what a Liberal would do!
 
CMatt25 said:
Ahhhh see there ya go. Centrist Dem Bill Clinton was POTUS then and he led you away from liberalism. 😛
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Actually, I believe it was graduating from university, and entering the workforce that did it. :o

May God bless you!
 
CallistusPM said:
17June: St.Gregory Barbarigo,BC
“The Tridentine Mass; the most beautiful thing this side of heaven.”

I believe that most members of this forum are intelligent, rational and cogent thinking individuals. And, yes, we do tend to get bogged down with minutiae concerning many theological issues ( recall:how many angels can dance on the head of a pin)? But, I submit to you that there are many individuals out there who could care less about the finer points of such topics as abortion, birth control, papal authority, Catholic Church history, tradition and orthodoxy, liberal vs conservative, the influences of bishops, euthanasia, the church’s current sex scandal, etc, etc, and etc… These folks are only concerned with making a living, caring for their immediate families and trying to stay above water financially. They do not wish to become embroiled with discussions that involve making their day to day lives more miserable, like worrying about which candidate to support based on his/her stand on abortion, whether or not they should use contraception; the list goes on. Abortion is not their main issue when they vote IF they vote at all! These folks are so involved with just trying to live; they don’t even know or care who the Vice President is, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are strangers to them. Benedict XVI . . . who is he? They don’t know nor do they care of the differences between the Supreme Court and Traffic Court! You tell them they should not use contraceptives or try and reason with them that human life begins with conception and be ready for them to tell you where to go. They really don’t care. I know of what I speak. I have experienced the darker side and believe me, the topics discussed here are the last thing these individuals care about. We cannot relate to them; we cannot reason with them. They don’t have our values and once more, they don’t want our values.
Let’s face it, most members of this forum are idealists and religious zealots. It is a place for us to express our feelings and ideas and discuss theology and ethics in an academic setting. I sincerely hope none of us is under the illusion that we are going to change much of what the world and/or our country perceives, especially during these dire economic times. Often our message, God’s message, is not easy nor is it a panacea in solving life’s problems. We must take up Christ’s cross and follow a long, narrow road. We cannot talk of the afterlife to many; they suffer now. How can they conceive of hell? They have no concept of heaven/hell as we know it. The forum’s vast topics mean nothing to them. Polemics here are just fancy words and rhetoric.
Members of this forum appear to me to be well educated and dedicated to HMC. Education is the key. It is going to take many years to fully educate most of the world’s people. There is vast improvement needed even in our own country. We have come a long way since the birth of our Savior but we have still a long way to go. We sit here and debate the finer nuances of life and religion. Believe me, there are many we don’t relate to.
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Meanwhile 1.2 milion children are going to die this year. If opposing this with every fiber and calling out Catholics who claim we can support this slaughter makes me a zealot or idealist I proudly wear the tirle,
 
scipio337 said:
Actually, I believe it was graduating from university, and entering the workforce that did it. :o

May God bless you!
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“Those who are not Liberal when they are young have no heart,those who remain Liberal as they mature have no mind”
 
CallistusPM said:
17June: St.Gregory Barbarigo,BC
“The Tridentine Mass; the most beautiful thing this side of heaven.”

I believe that most members of this forum are intelligent, rational and cogent thinking individuals. And, yes, we do tend to get bogged down with minutiae concerning many theological issues ( recall:how many angels can dance on the head of a pin)? But, I submit to you that there are many individuals out there who could care less about the finer points of such topics as abortion, birth control, papal authority, Catholic Church history, tradition and orthodoxy, liberal vs conservative, the influences of bishops, euthanasia, the church’s current sex scandal, etc, etc, and etc… These folks are only concerned with making a living, caring for their immediate families and trying to stay above water financially. They do not wish to become embroiled with discussions that involve making their day to day lives more miserable, like worrying about which candidate to support based on his/her stand on abortion, whether or not they should use contraception; the list goes on. Abortion is not their main issue when they vote IF they vote at all! These folks are so involved with just trying to live; they don’t even know or care who the Vice President is, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are strangers to them. Benedict XVI . . . who is he? They don’t know nor do they care of the differences between the Supreme Court and Traffic Court! You tell them they should not use contraceptives or try and reason with them that human life begins with conception and be ready for them to tell you where to go. They really don’t care. I know of what I speak. I have experienced the darker side and believe me, the topics discussed here are the last thing these individuals care about. We cannot relate to them; we cannot reason with them. They don’t have our values and once more, they don’t want our values.
Let’s face it, most members of this forum are idealists and religious zealots. It is a place for us to express our feelings and ideas and discuss theology and ethics in an academic setting. I sincerely hope none of us is under the illusion that we are going to change much of what the world and/or our country perceives, especially during these dire economic times. Often our message, God’s message, is not easy nor is it a panacea in solving life’s problems. We must take up Christ’s cross and follow a long, narrow road. We cannot talk of the afterlife to many; they suffer now. How can they conceive of hell? They have no concept of heaven/hell as we know it. The forum’s vast topics mean nothing to them. Polemics here are just fancy words and rhetoric.
Members of this forum appear to me to be well educated and dedicated to HMC. Education is the key. It is going to take many years to fully educate most of the world’s people. There is vast improvement needed even in our own country. We have come a long way since the birth of our Savior but we have still a long way to go. We sit here and debate the finer nuances of life and religion. Believe me, there are many we don’t relate to.
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Very good points, but what should we do? In Germany many people were just trying to get by and ended up watching as millions died. They tried to claim that it was not their fault? He was elected…he wrote a book, had a game plan.

We will have a hard time convincing many people of their guilt by association with the Pro-Death movement, but I think we must try. The direct linkage between the hardware owner that sold barbed wire, or the chemical company that sold the gas, when they knew or had an idea what it was to be used for, is pretty easy to make. I would think that those Germans that later considered how they voted Hitler to power felt much guilt, yet at the time the German economy was in the toilet and the Nazi party was doing great things. Many voter’s at the time did not consider that his weird stance concerning the Jew’s was an issue be concerned about. At the time he was not killing Jews yet unlike the politicians today killing children. Most people were just worried about where they would get their next loaf of bread,or where they would sleep. In the end, like I mentioned above, I bet many people probably felt the stain of their vote, their personal guilt and association with giving Hitler the opportunity to get into a position to kill, both the Jews and their loved ones in the war.

It seems to me this thread is pretty much the same arguement, although I am sure someone will try a change the fight to life into a right to life issue, although many Nazi’s felt Jews had no right to life, and they had the law on their side, the same as the killers today. I guess the main difference is the debate about (LIFE) and then the splitting of hairs, is it the the day before or after birth, or conception or thee months. It is what it is, and the fact that these butchered children have few survivors of the procedure and NO survivor that can remember the procedure means we have only converts that can witness to the horror.

In the end you are correct that many of the masses have no care…then again many Germans did not really know how bad the camps were until forced to walk through them and witness their guilt. It is too bad we could not require every voter to attend a few abortions, so they have all the knowledge to make their informed decision. (That last thought will get some love I am sure) In any event this is the best that many of us can do, to raise the alarm, to cry to heaven for the unjustice and the wrong. Who knows maybe one person will reconsider and that vote could just possibly change the world.

Cheers…
 
With the new health bill that our president passed that will promote abortion do we refuse to pay our taxes?? Our taxes will go to the cost of the health bill. I think all of us should refuse to pay taxes and support abortion. If we do they couldn’t throw us all into jail and would have no choice but to stop running our lives.
 
Lypher said:
Digger as a convert, still in RCIA, this is one area that the Catholic Church is far and away more specific then most other Christian Faith groups as they have a “Just War Doctrine” that pretty much is fundamentally based on the fact that some lives and or situations allow killing in the name of Justice. However the church is VERY specific that abortion never is allowed, and defines when you can use Just War as well.

Peace…
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Yes, of course. But there’s a difference between abortion being an intrinsic evil and every action one might take that results in an abortion being personally sinful. Yes, abortion is always wrong, as is any taking of an innocent life.

But read the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services from the USCCB, for instance. It says in part:
  1. Abortion (that is, the directly intended termination of pregnancy before viability or the directly intended destruction of a viable fetus) is never permitted. Every procedure whose sole immediate effect is the termination of pregnancy before viability is an abortion, which, in its moral context, includes the interval between conception and implantation of the embryo. Catholic health care institutions are not to provide abortion services, even based upon the principle of material cooperation. In this context, Catholic health care institutions need to be concerned about the danger of scandal in any association with abortion providers.
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That is a much more developed, complete, and complex statement of how to consider “sin” when dealing with abortion.
 
elts1956 said:
Then you haven’t read nor thought enough about it. Which is more vulnerable, an unborn baby, or an adult? I don’t get your thinking or philosophy on life. You have read Evangelium Vitae, right? Why would the Pope write an encyclical about lives he didn’t care about, or give a whole document over to the subject of abortion if it wasn’t of the utmost importance?
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I am sure I haven’t read or thought enough about it. I’ll never be able to read or think enough about how important life is.

What does it matter who’s more vulnerable?

Yes, I’ve read Evangelium Vitae.

I never suggested the Pope would write about lives he didn’t care about. Evangelium Vitae was about the Gospel of Life, not only about abortion.

Remember the Gospel from last Sunday? Those who sin much are so much more grateful for God’s love and mercy?
 
estesbob said:
it appears in the last election some 54% of Catholics who voted believed the Democrat Party Platform trumped the cathecism of the catholic church.
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One could interpret that many ways. Neither party coheres with all Catholic teaching. A prudential judgment must be made by informed consciences. As the Church teaches. You have no basis for condemning Catholics who voted according to their conscience by accusing them of ignoring or denying the Catechism or Church teaching. At the best, that is uncharitable.
 
CWBetts said:
The Church IS free to decree what is right and wrong, and that power was entrusted to her by the Lord. If you dispute that authority, then whose side are you on? Did Jesus lie when He gave this authority to the Church?
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Not exactly…God determines what is right or wrong. The Church will ultimately of course be preserved from error, but that does not mean that each and every thing the Church teaches is infallible, essentially true, or in accord with God’s will. The Church is human AND divine…the human part of it is always subject to human limitations.
 
CWBetts said:
To oppose the Church is to oppose Christ. “He who rejects you rejects me, and the one who sent me” To oppose the Church on any position of faith and morals is ver precarious ground to be on. To cast your lot against the Church is to cast it with Satan.
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That’s way too dramatic. Think of all those who supported the Church in some Bishops’ decisions regarding priests who abused children. That was certainly an issue of “morals”.

Remember…the Church is not only the Magisterium, or the Bishops, it is ALL the faithful (as led and governed by the Bishops, of course).
 
diggerdomer said:
One could interpret that many ways. Neither party coheres with all Catholic teaching. A prudential judgment must be made by informed consciences. As the Church teaches. You have no basis for condemning Catholics who voted according to their conscience by accusing them of ignoring or denying the Catechism or Church teaching. At the best, that is uncharitable.
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That is not correct…the judgment is made by the magisterium, simple Church authority. It is interesting to me, this Lutheran convert, that often times when someone points out that a Catholic is drifting away from Church teaching that the person doing the correcting is called uncharitable…The CCC is pretty clear on this…

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
  • by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
  • by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
  • by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
  • by protecting evil-doers.
**1869 **Thus sin makes men accomplices of one another and causes concupiscence, violence, and injustice to reign among them. Sins give rise to social situations and institutions that are contrary to the divine goodness. "Structures of sin" are the expression and effect of personal sins. They lead their victims to do evil in their turn. In an analogous sense, they constitute a "social sin."144
*1873 The root of all sins lies in man’s heart. the kinds and the gravity of sins are determined principally by their objects.

1874 To choose deliberately - that is, both knowing it and willing it - something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.*

144 John Paul II, RP 16.

With the above said. I have done my part to point out to you that which is wrong. You will, or will not accept this. I am charged in **1868 **to make sure that you know… Now it is up to you. You can no longer claim invincible ignorance you will now make a choice, like 50,000,000 other women, you will make a choice.

Tough CHOICE, but no matter what you will make one, even if you choose not to make one, you still have made a choice…
 
diggerdomer said:
Not exactly…God determines what is right or wrong. The Church will ultimately of course be preserved from error, but that does not mean that each and every thing the Church teaches is infallible, essentially true, or in accord with God’s will. The Church is human AND divine…the human part of it is always subject to human limitations.
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This must be newer Catholic teaching then what I have had:o.??? Where did you buy your CCC??? 😊
 
Yes,If one votes for a person who believes in slavery…the ownership of the temporary host to its developing baby inside…then its open the barn door and let ‘em all out! The very motto of our Revolution was…"that all are equal and have the right to life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness’…mmmm…right to life …that very words in the Declaration of Independence itself…guess it was important back then . We were smugly informed back in the early 70s that abortion on demand will make ‘every child a wanted child’ thus no more child abuse and neglect etc. Well lets see,has this happened. Has respect for children been improved anyway?Do we see headlines of little tykes being left in garbage cans and alley ways he asks? Do women who had abortions ever suffer anxiety attacks years later or are they proud for making that ‘choice’. Can we also make other choices,like driving our cars on the left side of the road for we are men etc. etc. the Masters of Deceit are just that…they know how to use the proper words for their agenda. Remember boys and girls,when a word and its meaning can be changed by the ruling class we are all in danger…as 'person; in the anti-slavery amendment was changed…Pas
 
I don’t think it’s right to call them “pro-abortion”, they’re pro-choice, myself being one of them. And with many being killed in the bible, including unborn children, I find it silly it’s being considered a religious issue.
 
Lypher said:
That is not correct…the judgment is made by the magisterium, simple Church authority. It is interesting to me, this Lutheran convert, that often times when someone points out that a Catholic is drifting away from Church teaching that the person doing the correcting is called uncharitable…The CCC is pretty clear on this…

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
  • by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
  • by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
  • by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
  • by protecting evil-doers.
**1869 **Thus sin makes men accomplices of one another and causes concupiscence, violence, and injustice to reign among them. Sins give rise to social situations and institutions that are contrary to the divine goodness. "Structures of sin" are the expression and effect of personal sins. They lead their victims to do evil in their turn. In an analogous sense, they constitute a "social sin."144
1873 The root of all sins lies in man’s heart. the kinds and the gravity of sins are determined principally by their objects.

1874 To choose deliberately - that is, both knowing it and willing it - something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.

144 John Paul II, RP 16.

With the above said. I have done my part to point out to you that which is wrong. You will, or will not accept this. I am charged in **1868 **to make sure that you know… Now it is up to you. You can no longer claim invincible ignorance you will now make a choice, like 50,000,000 other women, you will make a choice.

Tough CHOICE, but no matter what you will make one, even if you choose not to make one, you still have made a choice…
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If I am not correct, then please tell me (and all Catholic in the U.S.) which political party are Catholics obliged to vote for, as part of their Catholic faith? Thanks.
 
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