It is a Sin to Vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates

[CWBetts]

Which begs the question, per the USCCB, what is “proportionate reasons”?

Good luck with that one. No one wants to answer that simple question.

 

[tafan]

Here is a link to what my bishop had to say before the 2008 election:

prolifedallas.org/pages/Joint_Statement

Key excerpts :

1. Therefore, we cannot make more clear the seriousness of the overriding issue of abortion – while not the “only issue” – it is the defining moral issue, not only today, but of the last 35 years. Since the Roe v. Wade decision in 1973, more than 48 million innocent lives have been lost. Each year in our nation more than one million lives are lost through legalized abortion. Countless other lives are also lost through embryonic stem cell research. In the coming months our nation will once again elect our political leaders. This electoral cycle affords us an opportunity to promote the culture of life in our nation. As Catholics we are morally obligated to pray, to act, and to vote to abolish the evil of abortion in America, limiting it as much as we can until it is finally abolished.

1. As Catholics we are faced with a number of issues that are of concern and should be addressed, such as immigration reform, healthcare, the economy and its solvency, care and concern for the poor, and the war on terror. As Catholics we must be concerned about these issues and work to see that just solutions are brought about. There are many possible solutions to these issues and there can be reasonable debate among Catholics on how to best approach and solve them. These are matters of “prudential judgment.” But let us be clear: issues of prudential judgment are not morally equivalent to issues involving intrinsic evils. No matter how right a given candidate is on any of these issues, it does not outweigh a candidate’s unacceptable position in favor of an intrinsic evil such as abortion or the protection of "abortion rights."

To answer the original question of the thread: Is it a sin. IMO, if one has a well-formed conscience, it would be a sin.

 

[RobGeoAnthony]

Prudent in office? Are you out of your ever-loving mind??? He is driving up the debt so fast you can actually HEAR it!!! And he is still doing everything within his power to expand abortion and euthanasia (see health care bill). He has been anything but “prudent” he has been a typical tax and spend democrat, and is driving our country into ruin. I dare you to call me a bigot.

You are what you proclaim, or to put it a different way, your own words condemn you.

Next, I don’t read Moral Majority dribble even if dressed in Catholic robes and wrapped in the cloak of St. Sir Thomas More.

 

[estesbob]

Good luck with that one. No one wants to answer that simple question.

Actaully it has been answered again and again-those looking for an excuse to support abortion with their vote just dont like the answer.

 

[PJM]

=Major Tom;6508394]If the Church were to officially take and announce this policy, I wonder if it’s tax-exempt status should be reconsidered.

***The Church and THANK GOD SOME Bishops have made this extremely clear.

Those in ofice are trying to do a great deal more than remove tax excemptions; they are trying to do away completly with the CC, knowing that in doing so…they win***:

 

[CWBetts]

You are what you proclaim, or to put it a different way, your own words condemn you.

Next, I don’t read Moral Majority dribble even if dressed in Catholic robes and wrapped in the cloak of St. Sir Thomas More.

Congats! You made my ignore list. Why? It is quite simple, actually. Rather than give a solid arguments, you resort to ad hominems and name-calling. Just because someone disagrees with your infatuation with “The One” does not make them a bigot.

 

[mickeyfan35]

My priest said something about this one Sunday. He said that if you can, when comparing the candidates, stand before the innocents who were killed by abortion and honestly choose that candidate who is not pro-life, then that is how your conscience should be guided.

 

[PJM]

=mickeyfan35;6759364]My priest said something about this one Sunday. He said that if you can, when comparing the candidates, stand before the innocents who were killed by abortion and honestly choose that candidate who is not pro-life, then that is how your conscience should be guided.

Our Pope, our Church and commonsense and sense of Moral justice say your priest is SERIOUSLY WRONG.

You would do well to research the position of the CC and provide him with it.

 

[RobGeoAnthony]

Congats! You made my ignore list. Why? It is quite simple, actually. Rather than give a solid arguments, you resort to ad hominems and name-calling. Just because someone disagrees with your infatuation with “The One” does not make them a bigot.

And you are needlessly being combative. Fact is the Catholic Bishops have no say over your vote or mine. They can suggest, even conjole. I will decide, based on the whole package of the candidate for a particular office whether he/she gets my vote. I do not, will not, and have not voted for Republicans because their sense of ethics seems off kilter. You are not profound, though quoting St. Sir Thomas More who believed in following the law and his conscience and was martyred for that stand by King Henry VIII. Furthermore, you have cited what you don’t like about President Obama. Pure vindictive against the current, duly elected and sworn president of this nation.

If anyone is bankrupt on ideas on this issue it is you sir. As for abortion the subject of this thread, there is a considerable case to be made for abortion on two and only two reasons: Rape and Incest. In both, there are criminal acts without the passion and the consent of the victim. Both are crimes of violence. No one with half a brain goes out of their way to be raped. It is pure violence against the person of another with consequences such as STD’s. I work with those victims on a daily basis sir. I investigate those crimes and give evidence against those suspected of rape, incest, and sexual assault and battery.

 

[CWBetts]

As for abortion the subject of this thread, there is a considerable case to be made for abortion on two and only two reasons: Rape and Incest. In both, there are criminal acts without the passion and the consent of the victim. Both are crimes of violence. No one with half a brain goes out of their way to be raped. It is pure violence against the person of another with consequences such as STD’s. I work with those victims on a daily basis sir. I investigate those crimes and give evidence against those suspected of rape, incest, and sexual assault and battery.

Your sense of justice is odd, to say the least. In no other crimes is justice served by committing further crimes against the innocent.

 

[CMatt25]

Your sense of justice is odd, to say the least. In no other crimes is justice served by committing further crimes against the innocent.

Why do you guys always tack on that word innocent? It looks like you might mean justice is served by killing the guilty. Christ did not say thou shalt not kill only the innocent unborn. In fact Christ said you have heard an eye for eye BUT…

Yet a man was just killed last night by firing squad by the state of Utah supposedly in the name of justice. But perhaps justice was not served. CCC 2267 afterall concludes by saying since there are other means the state has at its disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today … are very rare, if not practically non-existent.

 

[CMatt25]

there is a considerable case to be made for abortion on two and only two reasons: Rape and Incest. In both, there are criminal acts without the passion and the consent of the victim. Both are crimes of violence. No one with half a brain goes out of their way to be raped. It is pure violence against the person of another with consequences such as STD’s. I work with those victims on a daily basis sir. I investigate those crimes and give evidence against those suspected of rape, incest, and sexual assault and battery.

God bless you on your work. But even rape and incest are non starters for this crowd. I have proposed safe legal but rare and rape and incest and mother’s life or health in danger. I have proposed programs to help mothers and their children with care following birth to help aleviate abortion. All in an effort to seek compromise and common ground. But no budging. I’m told no common ground. I’ve even been told no programs to aid mothers after birth. Only that all of America has to come their way.

 

[CWBetts]

Why do you guys always tack on that word innocent? It looks like you might mean justice is served by killing the guilty. Christ did not say thou shalt not kill only the innocent unborn. In fact Christ said you have heard an eye for eye BUT…

Yet a man was just killed last night by firing squad by the state of Utah supposedly in the name of justice. But perhaps justice was not served. CCC 2267 afterall concludes by saying since there are other means the state has at its disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today … are very rare, if not practically non-existent.

SO let me get this straight. You think it is an absolute wrong to kill a criminal in the name of justice, but it is ok to murder the unborn?

 

[CMatt25]

Actaully it has been answered again and again-those looking for an excuse to support abortion with their vote just dont like the answer.

:bounce: Oh oh oh let me answer! Proportionate reasoning is when your conscience reasons following much prayer and contemplation that there are actually other reasons besides a single one which may allow one to vote for a candidate estesbob dislikes. Sorta like you MAY vote single issue but not a must. There answered but now you don’t like that one.

 

[RobGeoAnthony]

Interesting.

Sorry. Victims of a crime are hardly in the wrong.

It takes days, weeks, months, and sometimes, years for the victim of a rape to lead anything close to a normal life. For that matter, it can take a very long time to gain the trust of a victim in order to obtain leads to track down. I remember one victim who was terrified the rapist would come to kill her in her hospital room. When my partner and I arrived to take her statement, we could hardly recognize her face as human. She had been battered to pulp. Her skin was the color of a purple grape. We could barely make out features. And that after a surgeon had stablized her. Her words were, “If that s********* shows up, shot him! I don’t want him in me anymore! I don’t want him to hurt me again!” She had been knifed in both breasts and the suspect left circle and star patterns on her. She’s lucky the suspect missed major arteries and veins. In this instance, the victim did not know the rapist. That piece of work just picked her because she was wearing a green jacket and seemed stuck up. These guys don’t have a conscience. They just satisfy an urge.

I will not force a woman to carry to term, a fetus, that is, for the victim, the reminder of the crime that robbed her of her sense of selfworth and integrity, the by product of a crime–by definition–not of the consent of the victim because the act that instigated it is an unwanted, unwelcome, invasion of the integrity of the person who is raped.

I will make this very clear. The act is not consensual and even arising out of love or passion. Rape is a crime of violence, domination, terror, fear, intimidation, brutalization, harassment: emotionally, mentally, physically, and I would add spiritually. There is no sense of completion; no sense of motherhood, only betrayal and despair.

 

[CWBetts]

Interesting.

Sorry. Victims of a crime are hardly in the wrong.

It takes days, weeks, months, and sometimes, years for the victim of a rape to lead anything close to a normal life. For that matter, it can take a very long time to gain the trust of a victim in order to obtain leads to track down. I remember one victim who was terrified the rapist would come to kill her in her hospital room. When my partner and I arrived to take her statement, we could hardly recognize her face as human. She had been battered to pulp. Her skin was the color of a purple grape. We could barely make out features. And that after a surgeon had stablized her. Her words were, “If that s********* shows up, shot him! I don’t want him in me anymore! I don’t want him to hurt me again!” She had been knifed in both breasts and the suspect left circle and star patterns on her. She’s lucky the suspect missed major arteries and veins. In this instance, the victim did not know the rapist. That piece of work just picked her because she was wearing a green jacket and seemed stuck up. These guys don’t have a conscience. They just satisfy an urge.

I will not force a woman to carry to term, a fetus, that is, for the victim, the reminder of the crime that robbed her of her sense of selfworth and integrity, the by product of a crime–by definition–not of the consent of the victim because the act that instigated it is an unwanted, unwelcome, invasion of the integrity of the person who is raped.

I will make this very clear. The act is not consensual and even arising out of love or passion. Rape is a crime of violence, domination, terror, fear, intimidation, brutalization, harassment: emotionally, mentally, physically, and I would add spiritually. There is no sense of completion; no sense of motherhood, only betrayal and despair.

So tell me again how the child is a guilty party?

 

[CWBetts]

:bounce: Oh oh oh let me answer! Proportionate reasoning is when your conscience reasons following much prayer and contemplation that there are actually other reasons besides a single one which may allow one to vote for a candidate estesbob dislikes. Sorta like you MAY vote single issue but not a must. There answered but now you don’t like that one.

Be specific. What proportionate reasons are out there? I am trying to think of one, but 'm not coming up with any.

 

[CMatt25]

So tell me again how the child is a guilty party?

You actually read his post? And still totally missed the point? Amazing. Not surprising when you have apparently geared your heart or mind to see only black and white on this issue but still amazing. Oh well. God bless you and peace.

 

[CMatt25]

Be specific. What proportionate reasons are out there? I am trying to think of one, but 'm not coming up with any.

I’ve presented many. Not going to repeat them to you tonight. It’s not sinking in to you. But you really wouldn’t have to try so hard if you can read Christ’s words. He came up with some on His own in Matt 25:35-46 and also the peacemakers are blessed as He proclaimed from the mount in Matt 5. Speaking of, peace.

 

[CMatt25]

SO let me get this straight. You think it is an absolute wrong to kill a criminal in the name of justice, but it is ok to murder the unborn?

When did I say I would have an abortion if I were female? But I at least am realistic enough to know that when it comes to a fetus there are various beliefs in a democracy made up of plural beliefs. And there are instances where I do not have the right to force my faith onto others. And society must come up with a law of the land in such a democracy. And it can not always be the Catholic faith that entirely has its way on every point unless we live in a Catholic theocracy which I don’t. Maybe you should move to Vatican City if you want to live in a state solely run by the Catholic Church. God bless!