"It is finished"?

[DiMonica]

I don’t believe it is contrary to Catholic doctrine to say that Jesus paid the price for our sins in full on the cross. There is nothing we can do to pay the price for our sin-it was accomplished by Jesus. This should be very comforting. Don’t we say every Sunday “Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world have mercy on us”? But its only confusing to think there is nothing further to do. We should be living out our redemption every day we are on this earth.

 

[reclavea]

“The Fourth Cup” by Scott Hahn is very informative.
Scott as a protestant wrestled with this phrase (It is finished!) for a long time. The “Fourth Cup” is all about this one phrase! He does a masterful job of explaining this which ultimately led to his conversion to the catholic faith.

It has everything to do with the Passover meal which includes 4 cups of wine. Jesus refuses to drink the 4th cup with his disciples and skips this last part of the Passover (which is very significant as Scott points out).

In the Garden Jesus asks the father ,"… O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

So that scriptures be fulfilled, Jesus drinks the 4th cup (wine vinegar) just before he expires saying “…it is consummated”.

Though there obviously are other references to this…this seems to me the main one.

Peace
Ron

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I don’t really want to respond, Huiou. I respect you, though I disagree, but I am just not very interested in going over this particular issue further.

I hope you don’t mind.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

I don’t really want to respond, Huiou. I respect you, though I disagree, but I am just not very interested in going over this particular issue further.

I hope you don’t mind.

Not at all – and Thank You! for politely stating your decision – My probing is caustic, I know, and I can fully understand not having the patience to go into nitty details when the overall picture is already grasped. I intend no disrespect to the traditional view, just to gnaw on the scriptures a bit.

May God bless you kindly this day.
Pax Tecum.

–Andrew.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

The Greek for this is “tetelestai” and it means “It is completed,” but the same word is used in Isaiah to mean “You have brought it to completion” and this is the final line of the psalm that Jesus quoted from the cross, “My God, my God,…” He has completed His identification with the suffering servant in the psalm and the triumph of God over sin has been accomplished. The victory is won.
In all liklihood, the other explanations are also worthy, perhaps even worthier, but this explanation satisfies me completely, and I found it in a most unlikely place: an appendix to a book on Judaism by Erich Fromm called “You Shall Be As Gods” wherein he quotes a priest named, I believe, Fr. LeFevre, for this explanation.

Uh,
In the LXX greek, the psalm is number 21. The last line reads:

32 και αναγγελουσιν την δικαιοσυνην αυτου λαω τω τεχθησομενω οτι εποιησεν ο κυριος

To those used to playing “where’s waldo” – te-tele-s-tai – in the greek font looks like this: τετελεσται – I am omitting the dashes. Can anyone find it in the last line of psalm 22 (21 in the LXX?) A website sporting the whole psalm in greek:

septuagint.org/LXX/Psalms/Psalms21.html

I’m beginning to think I have struck a few protestant nerves.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

I don’t believe it is contrary to Catholic doctrine to say that Jesus paid the price for our sins in full on the cross. …

You are right.

That statement is “part” of the whole Catholic Truth — it just isn’t the whole teaching. The sacrifice on the cross does more than just pay a price – and the incarnation itself is not just a warn fuzzy event costing nothing in and of itself.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

“Oh, Goody?” Of course I believe He said it:

John 19:30 "Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!”
​

John 19:30 Jesus drank the vinegar, and said, it is achieved. (RKB)

John 19:30 Jesus drank the vinegar, and said, it is consummated.
(Jerome’s interpretation).

I am even told Thomas Jefferson had his translation as well.

Oh Goody!
I can do the same as you can do – print words on a screen – but so far you have not done even the little I have done in showing examples from scripture where the WORD can be verified in its context to have (or not have) a certain meaning.

Oh, the work was finished and it’s “good” by itself.

Elucidate. Remember – by itself is “without anyone believing”!

But what you fail to understand is that all three Persons of the Godhead are involved with man’s salvation.

Wow. I fail to understand something that I never commented on!

It was the Father who sent the Son, the Son accomplished (“finished”) the work of redemption He was sent to do,

Quoting an equivocal fact will not MAKE the word spoken on the cross “finished”. The fact that Jesus accomplished his mission does not prove the point in dispute.

the Holy Spirit appropriates, in full, His “finished” work to the sinner at the time of belief in Christ.What’s to expand on, HT?

Oh, quite a few things. Like how scripturally do you KNOW that he said “finished” and not “consummated” – or again that the lexicon you believe is accurate?

The sacred text is quite simple and straightforward: “eipen tetelestai,”

Yes, eipen (ειπεν) – the verb for “said” – and “tetelestai” τε-τελε-σ-ται – a single word with not “it” and no “is” attached to it – unless you happen to agree with me that τε-τελε-σ-ται CONTAINS THE MEANING OF “BEING” ITSELF – Just as the name of God (YHWH) does. No, the meaning is not mysterious in the sense of a dictionary definition – it is mysterious in the sense of how it is applied and how people overlook it’s richness – as a TITLE.

God is the Alpha and the Omega – the purpose (telos) that creation exists – and you will say that There is NO GOD in “te-tele-s-tai” (τε-τελεσ-ται) at this climactic priestly moment on the Cross?

P.S.
Did he say it in Greek or Hebrew/(ARAMAIC)?
How do you know?

"He said, “It is finished.” There’s no mystery hidden behind some Greek nuance here.You’re on the edge of heresy, HT.

One is either a heretic or not. Heretics can be refuted with SOUND and VALID arguments.

Jesus came to give His life “a ransom for many” (Matt. 20:28; Mk. 10:45). Peter is presenting the outstanding character of the price paid for their redemption. He connects it to nothing men would consider highly valuable in this world, which will all perish, but the infinitely precious (highly valued) blood of Christ who was offered in sacrifice.

Blah … blah … blah … you say – But I note! not one of these arguments mandate that he actually SAID “finished” instead of “consummated.”

I am not arguing he paid no price, I am not arguing that a transaction did not occur, I am arguing that you don’t seem to have a clue about why the word had to be “finished” as in over and done with – rather than consummated.

Go back to my examples of τετελεσται – eg: some other examples of the word (not the one on the cross) which are spelled identically including the extra (σ). If the word is the same, it has the same meaning(s). If so:

Why is it that “finished” is virtually NEVER used to translate the word in the myriad of other places it crops up – HMMMM???
Yet – conveniently – it MUST be finished when said on the cross?

I don’t believe YOU.​

 

[moondweller]

Blah … blah … blah … you say – But I note! not one of these arguments mandate that he actually SAID “finished” instead of “consummated.”

I am not arguing he paid no price, I am not arguing that a transaction did not occur, I am arguing that you don’t seem to have a clue about why the word had to be “finished” as in over and done with – rather than consummated.

And your argument is not exactly the brightest. If something is consummated then it’s been accomplished, it’s been carried out, it’s been executed, it’s been fulfilled. IOW, IT IS FINISHED. Even if He said it in Aramaic.

You have far too much time on your hands, HT. You’re looking foolish.

 

[moondweller]

There is a danger here of reading these last lines as “once saved, always saved.” That the freedom from slavery has been won does not prevent one from freely selling himself into bondage anew, as is clearly noted in Heb, 10, 29. Some who were sanctified will be condemned even though perfection in sanctification is available (v.14). Without the grace of perseverance, that perfection does not come about.

That’s the whole point, Danno. It’s God who purchases the believer out of the slave market of sin upon belief in Christ, never to return and set free. He cannot be sold back again - the Greek won’t allow that concept. That’s a man-made concept based on unbelief.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

That’s the whole point, Danno. It’s God who purchases the believer out of the slave market of sin upon belief in Christ, never to return and set free. He cannot be sold back again - the Greek won’t allow that concept. That’s a man-made concept based on unbelief.

That’s divinely stated fact based on knowing Greek:
II Peter 2:19-22 For the interlinear:
interlinear.biblos.com/2_peter/2.htm
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants δοῦλοι slaves) of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage (δεδούλωται). 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again (πάλιν) entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Btw, has anyone from the OSAS crowd explained Col. 1:24 and Phil. 2:12 yet?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

And your argument is not exactly the brightest. If something is consummated then it’s been accomplished, it’s been carried out, it’s been executed, it’s been fulfilled. IOW, IT IS FINISHED. Even if He said it in Aramaic.

You have far too much time on your hands, HT. You’re looking foolish.

Then what is lacking? Col. 1:24.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Uh,
In the LXX greek, the psalm is number 21. The last line reads:

32 και αναγγελουσιν την δικαιοσυνην αυτου λαω τω τεχθησομενω οτι εποιησεν ο κυριος

To those used to playing “where’s waldo” – te-tele-s-tai – in the greek font looks like this: τετελεσται – I am omitting the dashes. Can anyone find it in the last line of psalm 22 (21 in the LXX?) A website sporting the whole psalm in greek:

septuagint.org/LXX/Psalms/Psalms21.html

I’m beginning to think I have struck a few protestant nerves.

Btw, the Masoretic Hebrew even shows the LXX numbering is correct (Psalm 9 LXX/9-10 Masoretic/Protestant is a acrostic poem, the rhyme in Hebrew showing that 9 and 10 are one psalm).

“The Orthodox Study Bible: Ancient Christianity Speaks to Today’s World” has as for the first verse
εἰς τὸ τέλος ὑπὲρ τῆς ἀντιλήμψεως τῆς ἑωθινῆς ψαλμὸς τῷ δαυιδ

“For the End; concerning help in the morning; a psalm of David,”

noting that Christ rose in the morning, so that psalm is one of the Resurrection (v. 1), the Crucifixion (vv. 2-22) and the Church (vv. 23-33).

Jerome, the Masoretes, and the Protestants have instead:
To the chief music-maker on Aijeleth-hash-shahar [or set to "A Deer on the Dawn]. A Psalm. Of David

 

[jean8]

Maybe if some Baptists didn’t trash talk the Catholic faith so much then such problems wouldn’t come up so much.

I know because I was Southern Baptist and nearly went into their ministry. I still have some Baptists that I know and some I used to know who just couldn’t see me and not have some kind of wise remark to make about my faith. It got real old after about the 2nd time, believe me.

The few times we actually got into these kind of discussions, I pretty well proved that not only did they not know much about the Catholic faith, but that I also knew the Word of God better than they did, which seemed to surprise them.

Still, they seemed to think of this as their way of “witnessing” to me and now I simply treat it as a chance to counter evangelize and educate them. If they don’t like it…maybe they shouldn’t bring it up. You’re right my friend. :thumbsup:They are also right so far as this goes. This is where they go way wrong. here they are telling you about their belief in the errant doctrine of “Sola Fide”, (“Faith Alone”) which didn’t even exist until some 500 years ago when it was developed by the Protestant Reformers.

Here are some links that should help you respond with facts and accurate doctrine.
Sola Fide - Salvation By Faith Alone? (MP3 Bible Study) and notes.

Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

How Is A Catholic Saved?

Baptism~ Necessary or Not?

I hope those helps some.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

Trashing other 'Christians 'isn’t why we are discussing doctrine. We all have and believe in the one true God and Savior Jesus Christ. He is our hope and salvation, not doctrine or church membership. And Yes, he did rise from the dead.
We are saved by grace through faith it is a ‘gift’ of God. See Eph.2:8-9 and be blessed.
All who have Jesus will be saved. Do you have a personal relationship with Him? We will only be perfect when we meet Him again in heaven.

God bless, as you search,
jean8

 

[Huiou_Theou]

And your argument is not exactly the brightest. If something is consummated then it’s been accomplished, it’s been carried out, it’s been executed, it’s been fulfilled. IOW, IT IS FINISHED. Even if He said it in Aramaic.

You have far too much time on your hands, HT. You’re looking foolish.

Yeah, and you are not really answering the questions – but doing a tap dance around them. I am happy to be a fool for Christ – for the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of man.

this “something” which is consummated – eg: as in the SUBJECT of a sentence! – if I said a “marriage” is consummated it doesn’t mean the children are born, the house is built, or anything along those lines – it merely means a PARTIAL step (sexual intercourse) has occurred (been accomplished) at least ONCE and therefore the marriage is permanent.

Because I can say one thing about the marriage is “finished” in a LIMITED sense – is not to say that the marriage is over and done with.

There is a contract laid and spelled out in OT Scripture – a covenant – which everyone “knows” is patterned after the gifts and sacrifices (eg:“the lambs”, grain, etc) offered in the OT covenant as a material copy of heaven. Yet a large fraction of the world seems BLIND as to when any of those millions of REPEATED sacrifices was “completed” in total (even one of them).

It CERTAINLY WAS NOT BEFORE THE DEATH OF THE LAMB WAS COMPLETE or the GRAIN WAS OFFERED. In fact even the knife that goes through the Lamb’s heart has no parallel on the cross until AFTER Jesus dies – if this is so, it ought to be PATENTLY OBVIOUS – that the sprinkling of blood (the offering) on the mercy seat will show up later too – heralded by one angel at the head, and another at the foot of the mercy seat being sprinkled.

The formal completion of the sacrifice of the lamb is NOT at the butchering point – but as NOTED IN HEBREWS – at the point the blood is offered after the slaying. A slain sheep is not a sacrifice in and of itself – it’s a DEAD LAMB. The life blood of the sacrificial animal has to be offered.

I can point to where these things happen in scripture – in the case of the lambs, and in the case of Jesus – that’s what convinces me YOU don’t know what you are talking about.

If you don’t want to spend the time on your hands setting the record straight – go away.


Again, – don’t tap-dance around the issue – Show examples from scripture which prove I am clearly wrong! Your use of “synectic” reasoning to pull the wool over peoples eyes is going to backfire.
It is patently obvious that when the Captain of the ship says “all hands on deck” he is referring to the WHOLE crew member by the necessary part of a hand. But you can’t reasonably maintain that the captain is speaking ONLY of a “severed hand”.

Nor can you hope to maintain that a sacrifice is finished until after ALL the terms of the act have been met.

And so far, you can’t even produce the words “it is” from the Greek to give tetelestai and unambiguous SUBJECT. Wow, one word theology is a sandy foundation. Build on ROCK, not the shattered pieces of rock that make up shifting sand.

 

[moondweller]

Yeah, and you are not really answering the questions – but doing a tap dance around them. I am happy to be a fool for Christ – for the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of man.

this “something” which is consummated – eg: as in the SUBJECT of a sentence! – if I said a “marriage” is consummated it doesn’t mean the children are born, the house is built, or anything along those lines – it merely means a PARTIAL step (sexual intercourse) has occurred (been accomplished) at least ONCE and therefore the marriage is permanent.

Because I can say one thing about the marriage is “finished” in a LIMITED sense – is not to say that the marriage is over and done with.

There is a contract laid and spelled out in OT Scripture – a covenant – which everyone “knows” is patterned after the gifts and sacrifices (eg:“the lambs”, grain, etc) offered in the OT covenant as a material copy of heaven. Yet a large fraction of the world seems BLIND as to when any of those millions of REPEATED sacrifices was “completed” in total (even one of them).

It CERTAINLY WAS NOT BEFORE THE DEATH OF THE LAMB WAS COMPLETE or the GRAIN WAS OFFERED. In fact even the knife that goes through the Lamb’s heart has no parallel on the cross until AFTER Jesus dies – if this is so, it ought to be PATENTLY OBVIOUS – that the sprinkling of blood (the offering) on the mercy seat will show up later too – heralded by one angel at the head, and another at the foot of the mercy seat being sprinkled.

The formal completion of the sacrifice of the lamb is NOT at the butchering point – but as NOTED IN HEBREWS – at the point the blood is offered after the slaying. A slain sheep is not a sacrifice in and of itself – it’s a DEAD LAMB. The life blood of the sacrificial animal has to be offered.

I can point to where these things happen in scripture – in the case of the lambs, and in the case of Jesus – that’s what convinces me YOU don’t know what you are talking about.

If you don’t want to spend the time on your hands setting the record straight – go away.


Again, – don’t tap-dance around the issue – Show examples from scripture which prove I am clearly wrong! Your use of “synectic” reasoning to pull the wool over peoples eyes is going to backfire.
It is patently obvious that when the Captain of the ship says “all hands on deck” he is referring to the WHOLE crew member by the necessary part of a hand. But you can’t reasonably maintain that the captain is speaking ONLY of a “severed hand”.

Nor can you hope to maintain that a sacrifice is finished until after ALL the terms of the act have been met.

And so far, you can’t even produce the words “it is” from the Greek to give tetelestai and unambiguous SUBJECT. Wow, one word theology is a sandy foundation. Build on ROCK, not the shattered pieces of rock that make up shifting sand.

"*When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,*The work was “finished,” purification of sins was accomplished, He rose from the dead, ascended back into heaven and SAT DOWN at the right hand of God. That position states it all. He sat down, because the full work of redemption was “FINISHED.” That which He finished on earth is now appropriated, in full, to the sinner at the time of belief in Christ.

What you stumble over and argue against is the simplicity of it.

 

[moondweller]

Then what is lacking? Col. 1:24.

Getting the “word of reconciliation” to the Gentile world. Paul suffered plenty for the ministry commissioned to him by Christ Himself. The work Christ completed on the cross, the “word” concerning that FINISHED work He left to His apostles, one being Paul and amongst them he suffered the most because of it.

But the “WORK” of reconciliation, redemption and propitiation was FINISHED on the cross. Men were now to believe their word that the work Christ finished would be appropriated to them by the Holy Spirit - which was the Word of God.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

"When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,The work was “finished,” purification of sins was accomplished, He rose from the dead, ascended back into heaven and SAT DOWN at the right hand of God. That position states it all. He sat down, because the full work of redemption was “FINISHED.” That which He finished on earth is now appropriated, in full, to the sinner at the time of belief in Christ.

What you stumble over and argue against is the simplicity of it.

Hey – for the first time you actually notice the thrust of my argument! But STILL, none of what you say makes the point that ON THE CROSS Jesus “SAYS” it is finished because everything you are now talking about is AFTER God accepts the blood of the sacrifice – in heaven. I am not arguing Jesus doesn’t eventually win in totality at some time.



Yes, it is IN HEAVEN after the TOTAL DEATH AND RESURRECTION of the sacrifice is complete – it is There in the final state where the life giving blood is offered that one can say Jesus has “finished” – BUT NOT BEFORE THEN.

I know that the sacrifice of the body of Christ is acceptable by the fact that Jesus ascended into heaven. But the mercy seat upon which he sits – Nothing is mentioned which even remotely resembles it until AFTER the resurrection.

John 20:12 and she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had been lying.

And this seat in heaven that you speak of?

Psalm 110:1 – The lord said until my Lord Sit at my right hand

until

I make thine enemies thy footstool.

And the until does not mean AFTER that point Jesus no longer sits at the ruling right hand of the Father – like some would say of Mary’s virginity. But there is a process wherein evil is conquered after Jesus sits at the right hand of the father.

The argument is so simple, all you had to do was say – It could mean “consummated” too. But NOOOOO only finished will do???
Before death – on the cross?

The blood is offered forever in heaven by the lamb who is slain – but alive and standing. With blood which can no longer die.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Getting the “word of reconciliation” to the Gentile world. Paul suffered plenty for the ministry commissioned to him by Christ Himself. The work Christ completed on the cross, the “word” concerning that FINISHED work He left to His apostles, one being Paul and amongst them he suffered the most because of it.

But the “WORK” of reconciliation, redemption and propitiation was FINISHED on the cross. Men were now to believe their word that the work Christ finished would be appropriated to them by the Holy Spirit - which was the Word of God.

Sooo He didn’t enter the more perfect tabernacle not made with hands to offer His Own Blood after He said “It is finished,” so that we may enter the Holy of Holies to stir up love and good works? Heb. 9:11-2, 10:19-25.

So how do we “always carrying about in the Body the dying of the Lord Jesus,…?” II Cor. 4:10-12. St. Paul learned from the Lord Himself the Mystical union of the Cross with the Church Millitant Acts 9:4.

Interesting that you should limit this to the Apostles (and their successors you do not acknowledge) teaching. Luke 10:16.

 

[moondweller]

Hey – for the first time you actually notice the thrust of my argument! But STILL, none of what you say makes the point that ON THE CROSS Jesus “SAYS” it is finished because everything you are now talking about is AFTER God accepts the blood of the sacrifice – in heaven. I am not arguing Jesus doesn’t eventually win in totality at some time.



Yes, it is IN HEAVEN after the TOTAL DEATH AND RESURRECTION of the sacrifice is complete – it is There in the final state where the life giving blood is offered that one can say Jesus has “finished” – BUT NOT BEFORE THEN.

I know that the sacrifice of the body of Christ is acceptable by the fact that Jesus ascended into heaven. But the mercy seat upon which he sits – Nothing is mentioned which even remotely resembles it until AFTER the resurrection.

John 20:12 and she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had been lying.

And this seat in heaven that you speak of?

And the until does not mean AFTER that point Jesus no longer sits at the ruling right hand of the Father – like some would say of Mary’s virginity. But there is a process wherein evil is conquered after Jesus sits at the right hand of the father.

The argument is so simple, all you had to do was say – It could mean “consummated” too. But NOOOOO only finished will do???
Before death – on the cross?

The blood is offered forever in heaven by the lamb who is slain – but alive and standing. With blood which can no longer die.

The WORK was accomplished and completed on the cross: “It is finished.”

You can’t get around it HT.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

The WORK was accomplished and completed on the cross: “It is finished.”

You can’t get around it HT.

What did saying that prove?



I’m still waiting for a counter-example to the meaning of τε-τελε-σ-ται.

BTW: are you coming or going from the moon?