R
rap1962
Guest
Needimprovement, I am convinced after this clarification, that you and I do not really differ substantively on anything at all. I certainly believe that Jesus knew he was God and accept the mystery of the Holy Trinity without question. Any personal belief I have, does not in my own mind contratdict this view. However, my ablility to articulate what I posit in my limited mind is probably extremely poor. I did not intend to make any definitive statement on the limits of Jesus’ knowledege, only to say that one could certainly reason (albeit without certainty) that in his human form there may have been limits, just as he was physcially limited. I sited scripture as possible support for the idea but in no way is it proof. I will certainly say I understand your position and believe it is just as valid as my own.There appears to be to be a misunderstanding, at least in part rap 1962 . Please permit me this one final post to try and clarify. Then I’ll give you the last word .
To this part of your post –
Please understand that I agree 100% with what you’re saying above … no beefs at all ! (I guess it wouldn’t have hurt me to include that in my reply -). Actually in an earlier post # 57] I cited Jacob asking the angel (in Genesis 32:29-30) with whom he wrestled what his name was, and the angel replying, “Why should you want to know my name ?” , in support of your same opinion.
If you look at several more of my earlier posts , you’ll see that I’m always in favour of what the Church recommends – the topic of the thread posted by the OP and linked by Edmundus 1581 [post# 13] here
Excerpt:
217. “ … The practice of assigning names to the Holy Angels should be discouraged, except in the cases of Gabriel, Raphael and Michael whose names are contained in Holy Scripture.”
I follow that counsel as if it comes from a parent. My issue was more with the way that particular counsel was presented on the thread (not by you – but earlier in the thread) – as if it were meant to preclude all communication and intimacy with one’s guardian Angel. As posted previously, there is a way to foster all of that devotion without ever needing to go into trying to know our guardian Angel’s name.
I think I can see how you may have believed I thought differently though, because my post in question came directly after your reply to Freeda who’d posted
The only part of your reply I didn’t see eye to eye with was the question of whether Jesus knew the name of the Angel who came to Him in the garden of Gethsemane. In my mind, there is no question. As you may have gathered from my most recent post, I didn’t consider Matt 24:26 relevant to any of my personal proofs as to whether our Blessed Lord knew that particular Angel’s or any Angel’s name. And I would continue thinking that way unless someone were to try and point out a place in scripture where Jesus himself says something along the lines of, “No one knows the names of the other Angels, not even the Son, but only the Father .” You see, I can’t even get over the thought that St. Michael , as prince of the Heavenly Hosts, would know all the Angels’ names but that Jesus who created both them and St. Michael, wouldn’t.
The unfortunate part that I’ve seen happen with some interpretations: Although that passage of Matt 24:26 almost appears to be a type of debate “magnet” (which can be a healthy thing in and of itself), a lot of people who begin by using it as a rationale that “Jesus did not know everything” , often don’t know where or how to stop . Some purportedly intellectual theologians have even regressed to the point where they posit that Jesus didn’t actually know He was God (which is why I tucked in that passage “Amen, amen, I say to you: Before Abraham came to be, I AM.” at the end ).
In my limited mind, I can’t see anything about a claim of Jesus not actually knowing He was God as being even minutely healthy nor helpful from a Catholic perspective.
Thanks for replying rap 1962 . You’ve allowed me to see where part of our differences are merely a misunderstanding. To try and make it clearer:
I agree with you that :
“No where in Scripture or Tradition or in any teachings of the church is it necessary to know the name of our guardian angel, so based on this, we can therefore be very sure that it is absolutely not necessary.”
The last word is yours if you wish. I’ve already unsubscribed to the thread but will certainly be glad to read anything you wish to post here. I’m grateful you posted what you did. It shows me that we actually agree on more than we disagree on. I apologize again for any misunderstanding.
God Bless
What I did in my response was take an alternative position to demonstrate that no finite human being can ever fully comprehend this mystery and we should never make an absolute authoritive statement that imtimates otherwise. I now see you did not Infact, I can see that it appears I did exactly what I was trying to show we should never do. For that I am truly sorry.
However, what this exchange did do is cause, at least my self, to delve a little deeper into my faith. And for that I owe you thanks for engaging in this discussion. I learned a great deal thanks to you.
As one sincere and extremely grateful Catholic to another I say: GOD BLESS.
