It is good that evil exists!

[tonyrey]

In principle, it is wrong to use evil as an instrument of good. If it is wrong for a person to do it, God would not do it.

If the whole salvation of the entire universe could only be achieved by one single evil act (such as a rape or an act of torture), I would not find it acceptable. The Christ whom I follow also would not, I believe, find it acceptable.

Evil is never right. No quantity of good can ever justify any evil action.

It would be wrong for a parent to cause their child to suffer to teach it to be loving. So it would be wrong if God did that.

There is a difference between using evil as an instrument of good and committing an evil act. God used man’s sin as an opportunity to demonstrate His infinite love. That is why the Church refers to “felix culpa”.

 

[jochoa]

This apparent paradox is summed up in the words “felix culpa”. If we hadn’t sinned Jesus wouldn’t have redeemed us and we wouldn’t understand God’s love. In fact we wouldn’t be capable of unselfish love if we couldn’t sin! What is your view?

I like your understandings! I especially like “…we wouldn’t be capable of unselfish love…”

I would say: it is good that evil exists because the moment there are no more people to turn from evil to good is the moment we limit the amount of joy possible.

 

[tonyrey]

the problem is evil doesn’t exist, it is a privation of the good.

I would rephrase to say that it is good that Jesus has saved us from evil and eternal damnation

You are right. I used “It is good that evil exists!” for dramatic effect.

My intention is to explain that existence with free will and sin is more valuable than existence without free will and without sin. It is the lesser of two evils. Otherwise God wouldn’t have created us with free will.

 

[tonyrey]

I like your understandings! I especially like “…we wouldn’t be capable of unselfish love…”

I would say: it is good that evil exists because the moment there are no more people to turn from evil to good is the moment we limit the amount of joy possible.

A good point I hadn’t thought of!

 

[tonyrey]

As was pointed out Evil does not exist .- for God would never create evil. When we sin
we create the absence of good - A terrible vacuum in God’s universe where God gave us the freedom to Love and we blew it. It is certainly good that we had the opportunity and the fact that we failed to fill it allowed the Infinite Mercy of God to fill it
The question might be rephrased : Is it good that we left a hole in the Universe and
Jesus came to fill it… It is sin to leave the hole but Where sin abounds (Paul tells us) Grace does more abound."

A clearer explanation than mine!

 

[tonyrey]

Felix culpa means happy fault. The idea is that God is so good, that through our evil choices He can bring about a greater good. The specific concept Felix culpa refers to is that were it not for the first sin (and all subsequent sin), then we would not have Jesus as our Redeemer. He would always have been King, but due to our sin, He lovingly became our Redeemer.
However, evil is a “deprivation of good”. This means that evil is the absence of good. Evil is not a thing in and of itself, but is actually the loss or privation of a thing, specially, of good. Therefore, we could never claim that the reality of evil is good, in any way. But we can acknowledge that “where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more”. God is so wonderful and beautiful and good, and He loves us so much, that He can take the most broken, the most wretched of His creatures and of His creation, and make it whole and holy and radiant. The new creature would be infinitely better off AFTER redemption than it ever was in its intact, pre -fallen state. That is not because evil is good! That is because God is good beyond imagining!

To be precise it is good that the opportunity for evil exists.

 

[Nogginer]

Here is a quote from the Catechism on this subject:

312 In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: “It was not you”, said Joseph to his brothers, "who sent me here, but God. . . You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive."178 From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God’s only Son, caused by the sins of all men - God, by his grace that “abounded all the more”,179 brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good.

Emphasis mine.
Here’s the link where I got it from: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm

 

[jochoa]

For those who say, “Evil does not exist,” what is your understanding of [BIBLEDRB]Isaiah 45:7[/BIBLEDRB]?

 

[tonyrey]

They did sin. I imagine that it could through the actual physical eating of a fruit.
Perhaps it is described as a fruit because the story was originally conveyed by the Holy Spirit to people who were hunter-gatherers and would understand the notion of poisoned fruit.

Adam and Eve definitely did exist. They were actual people, our original parents. Their story describes why and how we find ourselves here, which is a very real place.

The question the poster asked was “Why put the tree in the Garden?”
In the garden, the tree offers them the ony opportunity to decide to follow God’s commandment or not.
Thinking more about the matter, I agree that the tree represents more than just their free choice; it is the opportunity for them to show their love and obedience to God.

Thx

The key word is “opportunity” - which would be lacking without our power to choose how to behave.

 

[tonyrey]

For those who say, “Evil does not exist,” what is your understanding of [bibledrb]Isaiah 45:7[/bibledrb]?

I think we have to interpret it as “create the possibility of evil”. God is ultimately but not directly responsible.

 

[mommamaree]

To be precise it is good that the opportunity for evil exists.

Then are you merely stating that it is good that we have free will, that we may choose either for God, wholly and unreservedly, or we may choose something less than God? Because if that is what you are stating, you would be right. God Himself made it so. We are given the capacity to choose. If we were not free to choose, we would not be capable of love. The best part is, as humans stuck in time, rather than as the angels were, already in eternity, if we choose poorly, we are also given the opportunity to repent and make a new choice. The angels were not permitted such a “grace period”. But back to your point, it is good the opportunity to choose less than God exists, because that makes our total choice for God truly free.

 

[fhansen]

This apparent paradox is summed up in the words “felix culpa”. If we hadn’t sinned Jesus wouldn’t have redeemed us and we wouldn’t understand God’s love. In fact we wouldn’t be capable of unselfish love if we couldn’t sin! What is your view?

Being able to sin-and actually sinning and so introducing evil into the world-are two different things. But God knew Adam would sin, and, creating His universe in a “state of journeying” towards perfection as the catechism teaches, He deemed it worthwhile to create even so.

 

[tonyrey]

The Genesis is a great work of figurative representation. A representation that matches with all theories scientists put forward about the creation of the universe, the solar system, the earth, and evolution of life. The tree in the Garden of Eden is also a part of it.

I have no knowledge of other factors.

Evil, I think is that which brings harm to the soul and body of others. But, I couldn’t reply a question, ‘why did God create ‘evil’ while He could’ve created only ‘good’. Was not that ability with Him?

Welcome to the forum!

God could have - and probably has - created worlds without evil but persons made in His image and likeness are capable of love and lack of love. Everything has its price and the price of freedom is the possibility of evil.

 

[tonyrey]

Then are you merely stating that it is good that we have free will, that we may choose either for God, wholly and unreservedly, or we may choose something less than God? Because if that is what you are stating, you would be right. God Himself made it so. We are given the capacity to choose. If we were not free to choose, we would not be capable of love. The best part is, as humans stuck in time, rather than as the angels were, already in eternity, if we choose poorly, we are also given the opportunity to repent and make a new choice. The angels were not permitted such a “grace period”. But back to your point, it is good the opportunity to choose less than God exists, because that makes our total choice for God truly free.

I agree but I’m not sure whether the angels had no “grace period”.

 

[tonyrey]

Being able to sin-and actually sinning and so introducing evil into the world-are two different things. But God knew Adam would sin, and, creating His universe in a “state of journeying” towards perfection as the catechism teaches, He deemed it worthwhile to create even so.

A nice distinction.

 

[tonyrey]

		 			Here is a quote from the Catechism on this subject:


 	 		 			 				312 In time we can discover that **God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil**,  even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: "It was not you", said  Joseph to his brothers, "who sent me here, but God. . . You meant evil  against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many  people should be kept alive."178 From the greatest moral evil ever  committed - the rejection and murder of God's only Son, caused by the  sins of all men - God, by his grace that "abounded all the more",179  brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our  redemption. **But for all that, evil never becomes a good.**

Emphasis mine.
Here’s the link where I got it from: vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs…m/p1s2c1p4.htm

Welcome to the forum!

An important point. The effects of evil can be transformed into means of sanctification - as when we offer our suffering to God.

 

[mommamaree]

I agree but I’m not sure whether the angels had no “grace period”.

Indeed, they did not. Angels are in eternity, outside of time. They had to make their choice once and for all time. Once their choice was made, their choice was everlasting. The consequences of their choice were immediate and irrevocable.

 

[Bahman]

It represents our having free will.

They would eventually fail since they were immortal, they were not God, and they have to live in the garden forever! One possible sin, how long they could possibly resist it? This make the act putting the tree in garden as an evil act since it brings suffering with no use. The story is then false if we accept that God is good and can only do good.

 

[Bahman]

a 5 year old wants to have a cookie before dinner, his mom says no it will spoil your dinner, but then after mom leaves the kitchen to go get something he sneaks a cookie. Is the cookie evil? no is what the 5 year old did wrong? yes

the same can be said about the Garden of Eaden, the tree that they eat from was good but God commanded them to not eat of that tree. Their action was evil not the tree itself.

Keeping a kid in a close room, showing a super nice cookie and then telling that you are never allowed to touch the cookie is evil.

 

[Aloysium]

They would eventually fail since they were immortal, they were not God, and they have to live in the garden forever! One possible sin, how long they could possibly resist it? This make the act putting the tree in garden as an evil act since it brings suffering with no use. The story is then false if we accept that God is good and can only do good.

I think you have to meditate further on the story.
Satan was given the one attempt.
Now we happily(?) go on sinning of our own accord without encouragement.
Then, we were in a state of grace where we had more control and, being closer to God, would be unable to consider sinning: not quite heaven where the goodness makes sin impossible, but definitely not where we are now in our broken state.
You understand putting the tree in the garden as an evil act. It would have, if we had chosen God, permitted us to grow more deeply in our understanding and love of God.
Again, the chain of events culminated in the birth, death and resurrection of our Saviour, demonstrating the infinite depth of God’s love for us.
We all suffer; at any point some more than others. In many (most) cases, we find solace in Him.
I am interested; how do you understand suffering? It is so real, and when severe, it cannot be intellectualized away. It is there reaching to the core of our existence. One can seek Nirvana, but it is a very rare accomplishment. Christians have the transcendent symbol if the cross with its ultimate conclusion, the resurrection. Through our pain we have the possibility of connecting with God, who knows and shares in our suffering making us new.
There is a very real answer to pain.
To me your comment suggests that it was evil to create us. This is all pretty amazing!!! So, I wouldn’t agree.