It is good that evil exists!

[Aloysium]

. . .Also, where is the sacrifice? If I had Absolute knowledge killing my son would save the world and he and ended up next to me on my throne ruling the universe for all eternity then sign me up.

Seen from that perspective none of us can sacrifice ourselves. If there is a heaven (there is), death will bring us there, if not, it is all over, no more pain. You really want to sign up? I think you may be looking at this too abstractly.

 

[tonyrey]

Seen from that perspective none of us can sacrifice ourselves. If there is a heaven (there is), death will bring us there, if not, it is all over, no more pain. You really want to sign up? I think you may be looking at this too abstractly.

 

[tonyrey]

Then it begs the question why not create us with freewill without the sinful nature like Christ then we can say we were created in His image? Isn’t it God, not Jesus, showing His love by having himself tortured and killed as a bloody sacrifice to Himself? Read Jesus’ last words in Matthew, My God why have you forsaken me, which He quoted from Psalm 22 to make it appear prophecy was full filled. Sounds like the man Jesus had the Christ leave his body and the man felt betrayed. Some early christians had this philosophy like Ebionites vs Marcionites vs Gnostics vs Proto orthodox. Of course Luke and John make it see, Jesus knew what was going on all along.
Also, where is the sacrifice? If I had Absolute knowledge killing my son would save the world and he and ended up next to me on my throne ruling the universe for all eternity then sign me up.

“If I had Absolute knowledge killing my son” seems like a distortion of the truth. What precisely does it mean?

 

[PendingTheist]

Disorder love? These definitions of Evil are “white noise” to me. Lets look at this concept in reality and reason. First put yourself in a child’s terminal cancer ward and start to think again about evil. Why do we need childhood cancer? A child breaking his bone or getting a bloody nose is “evil” enough. Why inflict them with AIDS from a crack addict mother?

Evil nor is Love a “thing” but rather a concept we develop to describe thoughts, emotions and actions. To be given free choice without knowledge (i.e. from the Knowledge Tree in Eden) how is one to make a “good” choice? Once slavery was thought to be “good” for the slave owner but we gained knowledge which changed our values to make better decisions for mankind. I recently watched the movie “42” about Jackie Robinson which showed several appalling scenes of him being called a n*****r and ridiculed he doesn’t belong on the field by the Philadelphia coach and many educated white fans in front of their children. This was considered moral behavior by many not so long ago. According to Isaiah 45:7 God created evil. “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” Also, Proverbs 16:4 “The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil”.
Some have tried to show that Isaiah 45:7 is speaking of “calamity” and not “evil”. Ra is the Hebrew word “evil” used in this verse as it is to describe the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Ra). Of the nineteen times that the word “calamity” appears in the Scriptures, it is never translated from ra, but usually is translated from the Hebrew word, ade. Here is an unorthodox explanation to this dilemma: “Now the word ra does not have a conscience and therefore has no moral bias. Evil is not ‘SIN’. God created evil; God Himself is not evil. And strictly speaking, God did not create sin, nor has God Himself ever sinned. What God has done is created humanity in a spiritually weakened state that is totally incapable of even understanding spiritual laws and principle, let alone being capable of obeying them. And this was not a sin or mistake on God’s part; this was weakness by design. Therefore, God is responsible (certainly not accountable,) but responsible for all sin. And God has already taken responsibility for all sin by sacrificing His Son, Jesus Christ”. Personally, I find it difficult worshiping a being, if it exists, who created evil and responsible for sin and places blame on us and the only way to remove that blame is to get ourselves to believe we can cast that blame onto another being and feel we are perfect in God’s eyes. My philosophy is we do some good things and bad things throughout our lives and hopefully we do more good than bad. We should take responsibility for these “sins” by paying a penalty according to laws we agree upon in our society, apologize to others we may have hurt, forgive oneself and learn from our mistakes. Is this not a more mature way of dealing with “sin” and based on reality instead of casting guilt onto a supernatural entity we have no demonstrable way of knowing it exists and if it did, what is the true message it was or is trying to send as we apparently do not have the ability to understand?
Evil is derived from a thought process that may result in an evil act. However, the act is evil because of the mind it came from not the act itself. If a brick falls off a roof and kills someone, that is not an evil act, however, if that brick is thrown with the intent to injure/kill then that is an evil act because of the mind in which it originated. Is Adam eating an apple a mistake or an evil act despite the fact he lacked knowledge of future generational sin and suffering prior to this act? Is the islamic Chad healer performing evil acts by removing malnourished children’s uvula and teeth despite his good intentions? Were Hitler’s acts evil if he believed he was “acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator”? If my 2 year old daughter throws a brick and kills me, is that an evil act even though she doesn’t have the knowledge to predict it may result in my death nor does she have the acumen to know what death means?

 

[Aloysium]

Wall of text - , but I think I got the gist of what you are getting at.

Where I found an easy-to-read discussion on morality is in Fr. J.A. Hardon’s “The Catholic Catechism”.
I think you will find that it all makes sense.

 

[PendingTheist]

“If I had Absolute knowledge killing my son” seems like a distortion of the truth. What precisely does it mean?

I assume the Christian theist accepts God has Absolute morality and Absolutie omniscience. God then Had absolute knowledge of the future consequences of sending himself as a blood sacrifice only to have His son-self sit next to Him and rule the natural and supernatural universe for all eternity. So where is the sacrifice exactly? What was lost? I’ve witnessed far more suffering in cancer wards, children cancer and AIDS wards. Personally, I feel killing my child because of someones immoral behavior by my rules is an immoral act. But, my assumption may be incorrect so I would appreciate a response.

 

[globaljim]

Pending Theist-

 "Evil nor is love a thing, etc".       -Wow you tie yourself up and that may be why you're "pending"    The very way Lucifer tricked

Adam and Eve was by leading them to think “evil” could be something to choose. The way God made it there was only unlimited “goods” to choose from. There was never a need to choose except one good or another. Lucifer led them to think “evil” exists as something desireable - Even today we would be far better never to choose between good and evil and keep our choices between the vast number
of goods God made.
I admire your mental gymnastics to explain this problem of evil. But I think it is a lot less complicated than you make it.
Freedom is a most precious gift and without it we cannot love which alone overcomes all evil -no matter how you define it. But the
truth is that freedom of its very nature is 2 edged sword that can cut either way. Choosing only among goods really helps. But as
as to Christ taking our guilt on himself - he does this as God become Man filling those vacuums made by our sins with His Infinite Love- The Evil "nothingness"cannot hurt Him.
“Where sin abounds grace does more abound.”

 

[Aloysium]

. . . I’ve witnessed far more suffering in cancer wards, children cancer and AIDS wards. . . .

It is difficult, impossible IMHO, to compare suffering; it comes in so many forms and is dependent on factors that vary in each situation.

It is far, far worse to witness your child’s suffering that it could ever be experiencing it yourself. Does that image ever leave? Can one ever get over the loss. It feels impossible that there can ever be consolation.
I had a distant relative lose a son to cancer, thirty some years ago. The swearing, the venom and hate he, in his agony, screamed out at God!
I went to another child’s funeral some fifteen years later. In this case, the dad was in a completely manic state. Laughing that he could sense his daughter everywhere; he felt her in the breeze, saw her smile in the sun beaming through the stained glass. “Isn’t she beautiful?” he asked as he walked me to the casket. I must say it is one of the most horrific sights, to see a dead child: cold, waxy clay where there should be laughter or tears, jumping and running. He settled down with time, fighting repeated bouts of depression, which are getting better.
BTW: My distant cousin eventually made his peace with God; he died a happy man knowing he would see his son again.

I feel badly that you do not feel God close to you. He is with us, sharing our joys and our pains. He is our Father after all.

 

[PendingTheist]

It is difficult, impossible IMHO, to compare suffering; it comes in so many forms and is dependent on factors that vary in each situation.

It is far, far worse to witness your child’s suffering that it could ever be experiencing it yourself. Does that image ever leave? Can one ever get over the loss. It feels impossible that there can ever be consolation.
I had a distant relative lose a son to cancer, thirty some years ago. The swearing, the venom and hate he, in his agony, screamed out at God!
I went to another child’s funeral some fifteen years later. In this case, the dad was in a completely manic state. Laughing that he could sense his daughter everywhere; he felt her in the breeze, saw her smile in the sun beaming through the stained glass. “Isn’t she beautiful?” he asked as he walked me to the casket. I must say it is one of the most horrific sights, to see a dead child: cold, waxy clay where there should be laughter or tears, jumping and running. He settled down with time, fighting repeated bouts of depression, which are getting better.
BTW: My distant cousin eventually made his peace with God; he died a happy man knowing he would see his son again.

I feel badly that you do not feel God close to you. He is with us, sharing our joys and our pains. He is our Father after all.

There is no doubt in my mind that faith in God at the times you described above give hope to those who survive “knowing” they will see their loved one again. However, happy thoughts or happy beliefs don’t make it true. I rather follow the evidence in order to know if my belief is true and then deal with it in a mature and responsible way. Others have the will to believe despite the evidence and I prefer to know based on the evidence. Don’t feel sad for me as seeing reality and using reason has led me to a calmness that many believers get from their faith. I see my born again wife use her faith and relationship with Jesus in a very positive way in how she handles stress and forgiveness and at times I envy her but I’m not wired that way.

When trying to find good reason to what I believe I came across a missionary physician who has transitioned to deism while remaining in the closet described the process of deconversion as follows:
“I see Christianity as a square peg and reality a round hole. The square peg doesn’t fit in the round hole, so we start whittling and sandpapering the corners, trying to make it fit. The tools we use for whittling and sandpapering are collectively known as “Bible commentary”. We find, for example, that the earth is very ancient, not a few thousand years old, that there are biological bases for illnesses like schizophrenia, not merely demon possession, that the Bible had a lot of editing as it was put together and doesn’t appear error free. We incorporate these and other items into our Christian worldview, slowly sandpapering the edges and modifying our Christianity. When we finally get our Christianity smoothed down so that it can fit into the round hole of reality, we are relieved—until we realize that what we are looking at is no longer a square peg but a round one, no different from the round peg of Naturalism that fits into reality. Can what we have left of the peg, now completely rounded, still be labeled Christianity? No, it is Naturalism (or at best, Deism). Hence the loss of faith.”

 

[tonyrey]

There is no doubt in my mind that faith in God at the times you described above give hope to those who survive “knowing” they will see their loved one again. However, happy thoughts or happy beliefs don’t make it true. I rather follow the evidence in order to know if my belief is true and then deal with it in a mature and responsible way. Others have the will to believe despite the evidence and I prefer to know based on the evidence. Don’t feel sad for me as seeing reality and using reason has led me to a calmness that many believers get from their faith. I see my born again wife use her faith and relationship with Jesus in a very positive way in how she handles stress and forgiveness and at times I envy her but I’m not wired that way.

When trying to find good reason to what I believe I came across a missionary physician who has transitioned to deism while remaining in the closet described the process of deconversion as follows:
“I see Christianity as a square peg and reality a round hole. The square peg doesn’t fit in the round hole, so we start whittling and sandpapering the corners, trying to make it fit. The tools we use for whittling and sandpapering are collectively known as “Bible commentary”. We find, for example, that the earth is very ancient, not a few thousand years old, that there are biological bases for illnesses like schizophrenia, not merely demon possession, that the Bible had a lot of editing as it was put together and doesn’t appear error free. We incorporate these and other items into our Christian worldview, slowly sandpapering the edges and modifying our Christianity. When we finally get our Christianity smoothed down so that it can fit into the round hole of reality, we are relieved—until we realize that what we are looking at is no longer a square peg but a round one, no different from the round peg of Naturalism that fits into reality. Can what we have left of the peg, now completely rounded, still be labeled Christianity? No, it is Naturalism (or at best, Deism). Hence the loss of faith.”

What is the natural explanation of the teaching of Jesus?

 

[PendingTheist]

What is the natural explanation of the teaching of Jesus?

I’m not sure I understand your question. Please elaborate. I can go on about the early Christians (Ebionites, Marcionites, Gnostics and ProtoOrthodox) and their beliefs and debates but I’m not sure if that’s what your asking.

 

[Aloysium]

There is no doubt in my mind that faith in God at the times you described above give hope to those who survive “knowing” they will see their loved one again. However, happy thoughts or happy beliefs don’t make it true. . . .

Both those described above are religious persons.

My cousin understood God as all-powerful and all-knowing. He had God’s back and God had his. What was behind his rage was the knowledge that God could have prevented his son’s death. Seemingly, He resisted everyone’s supplications and simply allowed the boy to die.

The life that this man had built for himself included a flourishing business, a big house, a wife who was as beautiful as people get outside of the cinema and glamour magazines. He acheived and possessed much and it all came crumbling down. It had always been, but was now clearly seen as worthless. What is of true value, what never passes is love. It is what is True and the Source from which all existence comes into being.

Nice thoughts do nothing to ease the real pain of such a loss. The only consolation is found in God, Himself.

 

[tonyrey]

I’m not sure I understand your question. Please elaborate. I can go on about the early Christians (Ebionites, Marcionites, Gnostics and ProtoOrthodox) and their beliefs and debates but I’m not sure if that’s what your asking.

Who discovered the truths in the teaching of Jesus? For example, the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity based on the concept of God as a loving Father.