"It is here that we will see if you are truly Catholic or crypto-Protestants"

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It was published yesterday on Rorate Caeli a letter by Fr. Giovanni Cavalcoli, O.P., a great thomist (for those who understand italian, he has a series of classes on moral theology, methaphysics, etc. on gloria.tv and on youtube, and he is great), directed to the SSPX italian magazine “Si Si, No No”. I have found it excellent, and I personally believe it is a very powerful reasoning. Some extracts:

“An open letter to Sì Sì No No”

by Fr. Giovanni Cavalcoli, O.P.

Dear Friends,

I read the article “Punti fermi” "Firm Points], in [the] 31st October 2011 [issue of Sì Sì No No, the influential Traditional Catholic Italian journal close to the Society of Saint Pius X], and the section by “Dominicus” on the matter of such sensitive character as truth in theology and our Holy Catholic Faith - with quotations from Thomist authors, as is your habit - made me think immediately of my mission as a Son of St. Dominic, of which you are already aware, having quoted me at other times in your journal.

(…)

I know that you insist with much argumentation based on Tradition, on Holy Scripture, on the preceding Magisterium of theologians, in sustaining the thesis of “rupture” and “contradiction”, which means, if I understand correctly, even if I note in you a certain reserve or reluctance in saying it, that, according to you, the Council contains heresies and thus, with that, the Popes and the teaching body of the Church have abandoned the true path of the faith previously defined, are leading us on a deceptive road, have betrayed Tradition, cheating us with empty and indemonstrable assurances of “continuity” advancing the pretext of doctrinal “progress” or “development”, which pleases the Modernists, and this makes it understandable why the Council itself has yielded to Modernism. (1)

At the same time, however, you consider yourselves and want to be Roman Catholics, recognizing the authority of the Pope as Successor of Peter and Vicar of Christ, infallible interpreter, who has the ultimate word in the teachings of Christ, Master, to whom we owe obedience in matters of faith; you must recognize the authority of the Ecumenical Councils as well as the Divinity of the Church, “pillar and foundation of truth” and light of the people.

Now, I ask myself, how can these two convictions be brought together

(…)

You sustain that, with the excuse of a mistaken notion of its “pastoral” [nature], the Council and the subsequent Popes, in reality, have manipulated doctrine, have deviated from the truth, have mutated that which should never have been mutated, and want to dish out novel doctrines which deny what the Church has always, everywhere and universally taught in matters of faith.

You say that the Council proposes a false concept of the Church, which is no longer the true one, previously taught. It is no longer the “Church of the Ages”. The concept of Revelation has been falsified. The Mass that has been submitted to us is half-protestant, it is no longer the “Mass of Ages”. A conciliar collegiality has been submitted to us, an ecumenism that suggests indifferentism, a “religious liberty” that suggests relativism. The Council is contaminated by the errors of the Enlightment, of the French Revolution, of anthropocentrism, of naturalism, of Liberalism, of pantheism, of Protestantism; in other words, of all the errors of modernity. But all of these doctrines are either false or heretical. So, the Magisterium of the Council teaches us heresy. Well, then, is the Church no longer lumen gentium? Is it no longer the pillar and sustainer of the Truth?

(…)

You insist on the fact that the Council did not want to define new dogmas in order to deny the infallibility of its doctrines, or that is the impression that you give, but you do not have the courage to say it openly: to conclude that the doctrines of the Council are false, wrong, heretical. This lack of courage, “courage” in fact, that would be a scandal worthy of the protestants, or modernists, in some way is what saves you. But this does not prevent you leaving a vague idea of your false conviction. Are you not aware, in fact, that there is something off in your reasoning? Is the Church’s Magisterium, in matters of faith, infallible or fallible? You have to choose.

It is here that we will see if you are truly Catholic or crypto-Protestants, or, despite your intentions to the contrary – crypto-Modernists. But at least the Modernists are coherent: as a principal, they have a relativist and evolutionist gnoseology. How can you, Thomists, who claim the existence of an immutable and definite truth and also see the Church as teacher of the truth, end up alongside the Protestants and Modernists by saying that the Church can err de facto in the doctrine of the truth?

(…)

Therefore, denying the infallibility of the Magisterium is against the faith and so it is heresy. The moment you accuse, even in a veiled way, the Council of having fallen into heresy, you do not realize that you have fallen in it yourselves."

[Original Source: Riscossa Cristiana. Translation: Francesca Romana]
 
A very good point that I don’t think enough people understand.

Heresy does not have to be ‘liberal’ or ‘progressive’ in character. Heresy (if I’m not mistaken) is the outright rejection of Church teachings by baptized persons. Therefore ultra conservative groups, like ones that reject Vatican II, can be dissenters as well.
 
Read it yesterday. I plead ignorance to the level of theology in the discussions between the SSPX and Rome, but i will say that the position as laid out by Fr. Cavacoli are spot on. I will also say that, concerning the current crisis in the Church, we need the SSPX and I pray that they will regularize with Rome and regain full communion.
Some of the traditional sites were less enthusiastic in their response to the Fathers letter.
 
You say that the Council proposes a false concept of the Church, which is no longer the true one, previously taught. It is no longer the “Church of the Ages”. The concept of Revelation has been falsified. The Mass that has been submitted to us is half-protestant, it is no longer the “Mass of Ages”. A conciliar collegiality has been submitted to us, an ecumenism that suggests indifferentism, a “religious liberty” that suggests relativism. But all of these doctrines are either false or heretical. So, the Magisterium of the Council teaches us heresy. Well, then, is the Church no longer lumen gentium? Is it no longer the pillar and sustainer of the Truth?

The problem I see in the approach is here. The author conflates several important ideas, and blurs the distinctions between them. Then, taking the most extreme conflation, heresy, he bases a sweeping statement on it, namely that if the Church teaches heresy, then it no longer the sustainer of truth. This results in a false dichotomy: the Church could be wrong on some things, but still be a sustainer of the truth generally. A police officer still has the power of office, even after taking a bribe.

The rhetorical style is quite polished, and only loses its lustre in the light of facts: it is a matter of common observation that many N.O. masses look and sound like certain Protestant communion services, and that many do not look like the masses that were performed from time immemorial to the 1960s. It is also a matter of simple comparison of texts that when Vatican II defines Protestants as a subset of Catholicism, it was different from the understanding of what went before, all the way back to the Fathers.

These facts illustrate the difference between the author’s (presumed) position and that which he ascribes to the SSPX, or their sympathizers.

But further, it seems odd for someone who attends, or perhaps celebrates a service that appears more Protestant than that of his opponents, and who shares a broad definition of “church” that appears more Protestant than his opponents, to call his opponent “Protestant,” as if it were an aspersion.

When these facts and the article are brought into focus together, the analogy betweeen SSPX and Protestants falls somewhat flat.
 
I don’t think there’s much new here, except one thing, which I’ll mention later.

There exists:

The V2 documents
The Pope
Infallibility
The Magisterium

Part of the problem is what the above are defined as: what force they have. Their power.​

The modern position is that their power is wide, impecable and absolute: they cannot be wrong and they must be obeyed.

Another problem is the wooly writing in the documents. This is fatal to them being taken seriously. To bind they have to be like a good contract: iron-clad. If we have to argue over the implication of words in a contract for 40 years, it’s a bad contract. It has to be re-written.​

The one thing that the writer got right is: The SSPX not coming out and saying: ‘This is wrong, these Popes were wrong and here is why; the Church as a body has gone wrong. We will not reconcile until this is fixed.’

I personally find the legalisms used to defend The Documents a danger sign; the obscure, technical language used to defend V2. Truth is surely simple and direct?

Also: The SSPX seem to have been asked: “You must agree to that which you dispute before you can be reconciled with us” i.e. game over in the 1st minute.

Also it has been proposed: “V2 supercedes all previous Councils and all previous Councils must be interpreted in its light”. That’s a stretch too far.

I’d say it’s time to talk turkey. If a Big Mistake was made, admit it, correct it and get on with the business of saving souls.
 
PS: The Church needs to take care here.

It defined Infallibility historically recently and now it could be being used to defend an error i.e. this is a play by the Devil. If it’s found to have made an error, which was/is defended by a wide swathe of the Church using infallibility as an excuse, it will cause ructions when the little boy shouts ‘The Emperor has no clothes!’
 
… it is a matter of common observation that many N.O. masses look and sound like certain Protestant communion services, and that many do not look like the masses that were performed from time immemorial to the 1960s.
Hehe. You might want to take a closer look at the host next time you receive holy communion. It doesn’t “LOOK” feel, or taste any different than it did before the consecration either. Nevertheless, what it IS is not the same. The NO may today have more ‘accidents’ in common with protestant liturgy (whether that is a good idea or not is another thread) than it used to. But the ‘substance’ has not changed. It still IS the mass.

I have a sincere appreciation for the people of the SSPX. They aren’t always the best at rationally explaining what bothers them, nor discerning the difference between personal preference and doctrinal necessity. But they’ve done (IMO) a better job than the average catholic in the past 40 years of discerning that SOMETHING is rotten and needs throwing out.

My own personal opinion is that there WERE subversive elements at work from the inside at Vatican II, but that this is nothing new and that it happened at every other council in history too. Fallen humans are rather commonplace, I fear. I seem them in mirrors constantly…

I don’t think anyone has every claimed that council documents are like Scripture and directly inspired by the Holy Spirit. Rather an ecumenical council enjoys a negative protection: it won’t make proclamations that are WRONG, but also won’t automatically state things in a complete manner or in the proper emphasis.

I liken the situation to Fr. Richard McBrien’s work. Try as his critics may, nobody has ever managed to pin him down on an outright heretical statement. But by omission and grossly uneven emphasis, he sure manages to write in such a way that SEEMS to endorse doubt, uncertainty and disbelief in ‘de fide’ elements of the gospel.

There may be imperfections in the statements of Vatican II at the level of emphasis and incompletion. But interpreted as Benedict suggests in harmony with the full richness of catholic Tradition, this ship ain’t sinking any time soon. For me, I trust the promises made by Christ more than my own theological understanding and insight. Not that this relieves me from working to resolve discrepancies I think I find!
 
Read it yesterday. I plead ignorance to the level of theology in the discussions between the SSPX and Rome, but i will say that the position as laid out by Fr. Cavacoli are spot on. I will also say that, concerning the current crisis in the Church, we need the SSPX and I pray that they will regularize with Rome and regain full communion.
Some of the traditional sites were less enthusiastic in their response to the Fathers letter.
Need them for what?
 
Being a former “SSPXer”, I believe not all “SSPXers” are the same. Many are pure schismatics, with a deep-rooted schismatic mentality*. I noticed this even when I agreed with the Society. So, we must make some distinctions. First, the Church doesn’t need any particular group. Second, it would be useful for the Church to have the “non-schismatic” “SSPXers”, for sure, but not necessary. As for the schismatics, may they return to the unity of the Church.

Oremus et pro hæreticis et schismaticis: ut Deus et Dominus noster eruat eos ab erroribus universis; et ad sanctam matrem Eclesiam catholicam atque apostolicam revocare dignetur.

*Many of them believe that the new formula for episcopal ordination is invalid, and thus, that the present Pope is not a Bishop, and that most priests aren’t really priests as they were (not) ordained by non-Bishops
 

  1. *]More priests
    *]More seminaries
    *]More Traditional Latin Masses
    *]More traditionalists

    God Bless

  1. We already have a number of traditional societies which are producing priests and celebrating the Latin Mass. I mean, it would be great if they and all others would come back into full unity with the Catholic Church, but they don’t seem the least interested in it. We already have the FSSP, among others, who give us those four you listed.
 
We already have a number of traditional societies which are producing priests and celebrating the Latin Mass. I mean, it would be great if they and all others would come back into full unity with the Catholic Church, but they don’t seem the least interested in it. We already have the FSSP, among others, who give us those four you listed.
Yes, and God Bless the F.S.S.P. The point is, the S.S.P.X. is twice the size of the F.S.S.P., so if they accepted the doctrinal preamble we would have three times as many traditional priests, Masses, and seminaries as we do now. The influence of traditional Catholicism will grow immensely.
 
We already have a number of traditional societies which are producing priests and celebrating the Latin Mass. I mean, it would be great if they and all others would come back into full unity with the Catholic Church, but they don’t seem the least interested in it. We already have the FSSP, among others, who give us those four you listed.
Not to beat a dead horse, but you do know how the FSSP started, right?
 
I find it a little hard to take this “open letter” too seriously.

Firstly, the author puts words into the mouth of the SSPX, words he even admits the SSPX would not use, ie “…even if I note in you a certain reserve or reluctance in saying it, that, according to you…” …but you do not have the courage to say it openly…".: and then attacks the content of the words the SSPX have not used. 🤷

He then summarises the whole argument very neatly by saying the SSPX must be heretics because they oppose some of the changes made under Vatican II and therefore the infallibility of the Magisterium.

*“Is the Church’s Magisterium, in matters of faith, infallible or fallible? You have to choose……. It is here that we will see if you are truly Catholic or crypto-Protestants,……………… Therefore, denying the infallibility of the Magisterium is against the faith and so it is heresy”. *

The problem with this neat little summary is that it is not correct. Yes, the SSPX oppose part of VII but they do not believe it was infallible so there is no question of them denying the infallibity of the Magisterium. Therefore the author’s whole argument that they are heretics because they deny the infallibility of the magisterium simply does not exist.

On the infallibility of VII this is the SSPX’s actual position, from their own website:

*BUT WASN’T THE COUNCIL INFALLIBLE?
• Not by reason of the extraordinary magisterium, for it refused to define anything. Pope Paul VI himself, in an audience on January 12, 1966, said that it “had avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner dogmas affected by the mark of infallibility” (Cf. the declaration of the Theological Commission of Mar. 6, 1964, and repeated by the Council’s General Secretary on Nov. 16, 1964: “In view of conciliar practice and the pastoral purpose of the present Council, this sacred Synod defines matters of faith or morals as binding on the Church only when the Synod itself openly declares so.” It never did.).
• Nor by reason of the ordinary universal magisterium, because this is not a defining power, but one of passing on what was always believed. The “universality” in question is not just one of place (all bishops) but also of time (always) (cf., Vatican I and PRINCIPLE 6).
• Nor even by reason of the simply authentic magisterium, because the object of all magisterium is the deposit of faith to be guarded sacredly and expounded faithfully (Vatican I, Dz 1836), and not to adopt as Catholic doctrine the “best expressed values of two centuries of ‘liberal culture,’” even if they are “purified” (Cardinal Ratzinger, Gesu, Nov. 1984, p. 72. Cf. Gaudium et Spes, §§11, 44).

The Council itself both encouraged liberal trends (and its encouragement became post-conciliar Vatican policy) and departed from traditional Catholic teaching, but it has no authority for either (PRINCIPLE 5).*

Once again the author has attacked the SSPX for a position they do not hold.
PS: The Church needs to take care here.

It defined Infallibility historically recently and now it could be being used to defend an error i.e. this is a play by the Devil. If it’s found to have made an error, which was/is defended by a wide swathe of the Church using infallibility as an excuse, it will cause ructions when the little boy shouts ‘The Emperor has no clothes!’
This is an excellent point. To support it I will quote a question raised by another poster on one of the many, many other threads on this topic…

"The question is this: In order to be a good and faithful Catholic today, do we have to believe as true what the Church has formally condemned as an error?"
 
Not to beat a dead horse, but you do know how the FSSP started, right?
Of course. Which makes the point even more that we cannot say we got nothing from the SSPX since we have the FSSP. If the rest of the SSPX do not want to come back, why force the issue? Why continue to support them.
Yes, and God Bless the F.S.S.P. The point is, the S.S.P.X. is twice the size of the F.S.S.P., so if they accepted the doctrinal preamble we would have three times as many traditional priests, Masses, and seminaries as we do now. The influence of traditional Catholicism will grow immensely.
And since they didn’t why not put that time end effort in growing the FSSP and the other traditional groups?
 
=
ConstantineTG;8810809]Of course. Which makes the point even more that we cannot say we got nothing from the SSPX since we have the FSSP. If the rest of the SSPX do not want to come back, why force the issue? Why continue to support them.
I do agree to a point but the church should always be trying to lead the lost sheep back to the fold.
And since they didn’t why not put that time end effort in growing the FSSP and the other traditional groups?
I am in total agree, except for see above.
👍
 
Being a former “SSPXer”, I believe not all “SSPXers” are the same. Many are pure schismatics, with a deep-rooted schismatic mentality*. I noticed this even when I agreed with the Society. So, we must make some distinctions. First, the Church doesn’t need any particular group. Second, it would be useful for the Church to have the “non-schismatic” “SSPXers”, for sure, but not necessary. As for the schismatics, may they return to the unity of the Church.

Oremus et pro hæreticis et schismaticis: ut Deus et Dominus noster eruat eos ab erroribus universis; et ad sanctam matrem Eclesiam catholicam atque apostolicam revocare dignetur.

*Many of them believe that the new formula for episcopal ordination is invalid, and thus, that the present Pope is not a Bishop, and that most priests aren’t really priests as they were (not) ordained by non-Bishops
I also am a revert from SSPXism. (I was an adherent for some 23 years.

Here are a couple of interesting observations:
  1. Someone (like Cardinal Mindzenty) is incarcerated in a Communist jail - heavily monitored.
    Somehow, he obtains an crumb of bread and a single drop of wine. He is a valid priest; he has the intention to do what the Church does, he says “This is My Body…” and “This is My Blood…” He consumes the species under the very eyes of the jailer - who hasn’t a clue as what has happened. Cardinal Mindzenty has said the Mass of the Ages within 15 seconds!
  2. Fr. Joe Blow is a validly ordained priest who is Parish Priest of St Mary’s Somewhere. Over the years, he has become a Satanist! Satanists DO believe in the Real Presence. He has the intention to effect the Transubstantiation. He uses the proper “matter” and says the Latin Mass. His parishioners have no idea that he is a Satanist - they receive the species; they receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity - and the Graces therefrom. Fr. Blow, of course, has blasphemed and sinned greviously!
These, of course, are two extreme examples.

Another interesting matter is that there is a Blessed who was , at one point of time, a satanist.

While the ideal is that ALL priests be saints - the Church does NOT have that requirement of them; all She requires is that they are validly ordained, do what the Church does, uses the correct matter, and says the required form for the consecration.

In the light of these facts - the SSPX are irrelevant.
 
Satanists DO believe in the Real Presence.
Satanists aren’t monolithic in what they believe. In my limited experience in college with a few, they don’t even believe in Satan as a person, much less Christ. Many of them see “Satan” as a philosophical idea, not an entity.

Maybe they’re Unitarian Satanists?? :D:p
 
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