It is not good to Pry... Too Much Into [un-knowable things]

[distracted]

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I thought this was interesting because some on CAF just seem to go on and on disputing this thing or that and disputing it to death, it seems… and non-Catholics who are hostile to Catholicism just keep on going, probably or possibly, just to keep Catholics in a constnat state of agitation… (just a theory i have… hope i am wrong). ****. It is from Thomas a’Kempis:

Prying Too Much Into the Mysteries of God

*Many people have lost all feeling of devotion because they wanted to pry into profound things. It is faith and a genuine, honest life that is required of you, not a lofty intellect nor a deep understanding of God’s mysteries.

If you do not understand or fully grasp those things that are below you, how will you comprehend those that are above you?

So, submit yourself to God and rely on your faith, and you will receive all the knowledge that you need.

… Pay no attention to such temptations [from the devil], and do not argue with your thoughts or try to answer the doubts that the devil whispers in your ear. Instead, believe in God’s words and believe his saints and prophets, and the wicked enemy will turn tail and run. It will often do you much good to suffer such doubts. The devil does not tempt unbelievers and sinners; he surely possesses them already. It is the faithful and devout whom he tempts and molests, and he does it in a variety of ways.

So continue on in your simple and staunch faith and come to the Sacrament with humble reverence and securely commit to almighty God all that you cannot understand… A person is lost who places too much trust in himself… [God] hides his grace from the curious and the arrogant.

Human reason is weak and can be misled… In this most holy and most excellent Sacrament, faith and love excel, and they work in hidden ways. God–eternal, boundless, and of infinite power–does great things in Heaven and on Earth that are a complete mystery to us. There is no searching out his wondrous works.*

 

[Guyonthestreet]

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It is faith and a genuine, honest life that is required of you, not a lofty intellect nor a deep understanding of God’s mysteries.

If you do not understand or fully grasp those things that are below you, how will you comprehend those that are above you?

So, submit yourself to God and rely on your faith, and you will receive all the knowledge that you need.

That sounds more Orthodox than Catholic

 

[Brickmaker]

I’ve always wondered why Thomas a Kempis isn’t a canonized saint…?

Were some of his views suspect? I’ve always liked his quote: “At the Day of Judgement we shall not be asked what we have read but what we have done”.

I know there was an attempt to gather the necessary documents for beatification but it seems to have been abandoned.According to Snopes he was accidentally buried alive and when he was exhumed for the ossuary, scratch marks were found on the lid of his coffin. As he was not reconciled to his fate, his canonization process did not proceed.

Is not wanting to be buried alive, conduct unbecoming for a potential canonization?

 

[distracted]

I’ve always wondered why Thomas a Kempis isn’t a canonized saint…?

Were some of his views suspect? I’ve always liked his quote: “At the Day of Judgement we shall not be asked what we have read but what we have done”.

I know there was an attempt to gather the necessary documents for beatification but it seems to have been abandoned.According to Snopes he was accidentally buried alive and when he was exhumed for the ossuary, scratch marks were found on the lid of his coffin. As he was not reconciled to his fate, his canonization process did not proceed.

Is not wanting to be buried alive, conduct unbecoming for a potential canonization?

whoa, that is really bizarre… i didn’t know that… How terribly sad… awful

i can’t see how that would be a barrier to canonization… it should be all the more reason to canonize him…

are you sure this happened???

 

[Brickmaker]

whoa, that is really bizarre… i didn’t know that… How terribly sad… awful

i can’t see how that would be a barrier to canonization… it should be all the more reason to canonize him…

are you sure this happened???

No, I’m not sure - it’s just something I read on snopes.com and in a book called “Death: A History of Man’s Obsessions and Fears” by Robert Wilkins. I know, I’ve weird tastes but the book is actually not as morbid as it sounds. In fact, it’s fascinating

 

[dzheremi]

I agree with Guyonthestreet…it reads like an implicit rejection of scholasticism, at least. I like it. The scholasticism found in the Church can be very alienating and spiritually harmful, in my experience.

 

[Hesychios]

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… It is from Thomas a’Kempis:

Prying Too Much Into the Mysteries of God

*Many people have lost all feeling of devotion because they wanted to pry into profound things. …

Human reason is weak and can be misled… In this most holy and most excellent Sacrament, faith and love excel, and they work in hidden ways.

God–eternal, boundless, and of infinite power–does great things in Heaven and on Earth that are a complete mystery to us. There is no searching out his wondrous works*.

That sounds more Orthodox than Catholic

I agree with Guyonthestreet…it reads like an implicit rejection of scholasticism, at least. I like it. The scholasticism found in the Church can be very alienating and spiritually harmful, in my experience.

After I read the first post I was in agreement completely, and I was going to post the same sort of comments.

Has anyone read “The Cloud of Unknowing” ?

The Imitation of Christ was a favorite devotional of mine as a Catholic, and I kept that book with me for many years.

The idea that this is a reaction to scholasticism is not at all out of the question. Saint Thomas (I will personally regard him as a saint) was part of a large lay movement (beghard) that tended to be centered in north central Europe. It kept dying out and sprouting up again in different formal and informal associations. He was a member of the Brethren of the Common Life (I don’t know if they still exist). The brethren had an influence on both Luther and Erasmus.

(BTW, Another group that somehow managed to survive out of that ferment was the Alexian Brothers, which I know still exist because I worked for their hospital in Illinois long ago.)

These groups (Beghards & Common Life) were not at the center of Catholicism, but in the margins, and they had enemies while they had little to no influence in Rome. Their thought survived within the Latin church largely as and undercurrent nevertheless, and still pops up in places like this thread today.

Actually, I think that the spirituality and thought of men like Saint Thomas A’kempis could serve as a reconciling bridge between Catholicism, Lutheranism and Holy Orthodoxy.

 

[cyberwolf001]

Yes he was denied sainthood as it appeared he attempted to maybe claw his way out and escape which showed an unhealthy attachment to this life.

An WE are the ‘Culture of Death’!?

 

[distracted]

Yes he was denied sainthood as it appeared he attempted to maybe claw his way out and escape which showed an unhealthy attachment to this life.

An WE are the ‘Culture of Death’!?

if that knowledge was … i mean if that really happened, why am i … devout Catholic and have been for many years, beeing Catholic all my lifre… just now hearing about it???

sorry but i have doubts when non-Catholics say something about the/ Catholic Church … I’ve heard a lot of weird things… that were distortions or out-right lies…

 

[distracted]

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I think the main point is that it is not good to question everything, pick everything apart and say to yourself that you have to know everything about [whatever] before you will believe…

again people get more out of a post than is there… happens all the time…

i never said antyhing against reading spiritual books or whatever… neither did Thomas

 

[gmcbroom]

Since when is it a sin to fight for ones life? If the poor man was mistakenly buried alive (as has been known to happen even today) then he should be allowed the chance to fight for his life instead of just giving up. I’m sorry but to deny someone the chance to be canonized over what is effect a biological reaction is ludicris. However, I do think the OP is correct you should have faith in your religion no matter what it is. Now if one does choose to delve deeply into ones faith one must be willing to accept that what one finds may either strengthen their faith or destroy it.
Take me for example. I’m an adult catechaum in the Catholic faith, just starting out. Just starting out in the faith. Someone told me I’d have to stop masturbating yes I said it masturbating because It’s a sin. Before I take what she told me on faith, I must research more. So I looked on this site and found a thread discussing that very topic. Now I needed some bible verse(s) not priestly recommendations just the facts in writing as it were, before I would make up my mind. Wouldn’t you know I found it. Well another poster did actually. Leviticus Chp 15 verse 16. According to the version of the Bible I’ve got Leviticus discusses legal purity for the priests of Levi. One may infer its for the Israelites, but it mainly for the priests. Note its not a sin to masturbate it just makes one unclean until evening. And even then since this is just guidance for priests of Levi, you may choose to do it or not. Note if your a priest your not committing a sin either your just unclean until evening. The only time I see this even being an issue for them is if they have a religious service that day. After all one should be clean for that. Plus from a sanitary aspect back then bathing wasn’t as prevalent as it was today so chances are they’d smell of sex, so it would make sense that this came about to curb that activity both for sanitary and spiritual reasons.

Was that too much?

The moral of my story is that sometimes it pays to dig alittle deeper. Just beware you may not like what you find.

 

[distracted]

Since when is it a sin to fight for ones life? If the poor man was mistakenly buried alive (as has been known to happen even today) then he should be allowed the chance to fight for his life instead of just giving up. I’m sorry but to deny someone the chance to be canonized over what is effect a biological reaction is ludicris. However, I do think the OP is correct you should have faith in your religion no matter what it is. Now if one does choose to delve deeply into ones faith one must be willing to accept that what one finds may either strengthen their faith or destroy it.
Take me for example. I’m an adult catechaum in the Catholic faith, just starting out. Just starting out in the faith. Someone told me I’d have to stop masturbating yes I said it masturbating because It’s a sin. Before I take what she told me on faith, I must research more. So I looked on this site and found a thread discussing that very topic. Now I needed some bible verse(s) not priestly recommendations just the facts in writing as it were, before I would make up my mind. Wouldn’t you know I found it. Well another poster did actually. Leviticus Chp 15 verse 16. According to the version of the Bible I’ve got Leviticus discusses legal purity for the priests of Levi. One may infer its for the Israelites, but it mainly for the priests. Note its not a sin to masturbate it just makes one unclean until evening. And even then since this is just guidance for priests of Levi, you may choose to do it or not. Note if your a priest your not committing a sin either your just unclean until evening. The only time I see this even being an issue for them is if they have a religious service that day. After all one should be clean for that. Plus from a sanitary aspect back then bathing wasn’t as prevalent as it was today so chances are they’d smell of sex, so it would make sense that this came about to curb that activity both for sanitary and spiritual reasons.

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you are missing a VERY important point (or 2)…

the Roman Catholic Church does not go by sciprture alone. there are things taught by the Church that are not explicitly, possibly not even implicitly taught in the bible…

that doesn’t mean it is not true. There is a LOT of truth that is not in the bible, truth about God, about Jesus, etc… it is even said in the Bible that if everything Jesus did and said were put into a book all the books in the world could not hold it…

so just because it doesn’t say in the bible thou shalt not masturbate does NOT mean it is not a serious sin. even so, there IS something in the bible that says or implies that its wrong… the story of Onan in the OT… Also the term sexual impurity would indicate masturbation…

but even more important, in my opinion, is christian’s experience… i have not committed this sin in YEARS because i know how wrong it is… by the effects it has on the soul…

I’m sorry if this sounds harsh but if a person doesn’t experience any consequences in his spirituality… serious ones from doing this sin, maybe he is not as close to Jesus as he should be…

its interesting that i grew to see the seiorusness of this sin more (far more) after drawing close to Jesus than before i was that close… I think this says a lot…

 

[cyberwolf001]

if that knowledge was … i mean if that really happened, why am i … devout Catholic and have been for many years, beeing Catholic all my lifre… just now hearing about it???

sorry but i have doubts when non-Catholics say something about the/ Catholic Church … I’ve heard a lot of weird things… that were distortions or out-right lies…

Try searching this board it is where I first learned of it and on other Catholic sites. To see for yourself just google: canonization thomas a kempis

 

[distracted]

Try searching this board it is where I first learned of it and on other Catholic sites. To see for yourself just google: canonization thomas a kempis

ok thanks…

uh… just wondering why you are here if you are “neo-pagan”?

 

[cyberwolf001]

ok thanks…

uh… just wondering why you are here if you are “neo-pagan”?

Just check my profile my reasons are checked. If I had a dollar for everytime a none Catholic was asked that on here I could take care of the national debt with a personal check.

 

[distracted]

Just check my profile my reasons are checked. If I had a dollar for everytime a none Catholic was asked that on here I could take care of the national debt with a personal check.

i didn’t find any answers to my question there… to speak of

what interests you in Catholicism??

 

[cyberwolf001]

I’m a convert that reverted to Paganism.

Now why do Catholics always ask non-Catholics this around here. ESPECALLY when the non-Catholic is very good at defending his position?

 

[John92]

Since when is it a sin to fight for ones life? If the poor man was mistakenly buried alive (as has been known to happen even today) then he should be allowed the chance to fight for his life instead of just giving up. I’m sorry but to deny someone the chance to be canonized over what is effect a biological reaction is ludicris. However, I do think the OP is correct you should have faith in your religion no matter what it is. Now if one does choose to delve deeply into ones faith one must be willing to accept that what one finds may either strengthen their faith or destroy it.
Take me for example. I’m an adult catechaum in the Catholic faith, just starting out. Just starting out in the faith. Someone told me I’d have to stop masturbating yes I said it masturbating because It’s a sin. Before I take what she told me on faith, I must research more. So I looked on this site and found a thread discussing that very topic. Now I needed some bible verse(s) not priestly recommendations just the facts in writing as it were, before I would make up my mind. Wouldn’t you know I found it. Well another poster did actually. Leviticus Chp 15 verse 16. According to the version of the Bible I’ve got Leviticus discusses legal purity for the priests of Levi. One may infer its for the Israelites, but it mainly for the priests. Note its not a sin to masturbate it just makes one unclean until evening. And even then since this is just guidance for priests of Levi, you may choose to do it or not. Note if your a priest your not committing a sin either your just unclean until evening. The only time I see this even being an issue for them is if they have a religious service that day. After all one should be clean for that. Plus from a sanitary aspect back then bathing wasn’t as prevalent as it was today so chances are they’d smell of sex, so it would make sense that this came about to curb that activity both for sanitary and spiritual reasons.

Was that too much?

The moral of my story is that sometimes it pays to dig alittle deeper. Just beware you may not like what you find.

You should have listened to your Priest

The prohibition of masturbation was present in the Old Law to a certain extent but it was greatly expanded in the New. Remember the teaching about “you have already committed adultery with her in your heart?” Having any sort of conscious sexual thought is grave matter. Plus all the references in Paul’s epistles to “uncleanness” are about masturbation (it’s a semitic euphemism).

As for OP: very wise stuff from Thomas. There’s no use in learning something that’s not going to aid in salvation, unless you’re becoming a Priest in which case you sort of need a good understanding of theology. The pride that almost always arises from such learning far outweighs any spiritual benefit.

 

[distracted]

I’m a convert that reverted to Paganism.

Now why do Catholics always ask non-Catholics this around here. ESPECALLY when the non-Catholic is very good at defending his position?

not good enough because you haven’t even answered my question…

and non-Catholics don’t have a position… that validly conflicts with those of the Church…

there is only one truth…

how would you like to live in a world of nothing but neo-pagans???

just wondering…

didn’t the Aztecs have that??

 

[distracted]

You should have listened to your Priest

The prohibition of masturbation was present in the Old Law to a certain extent but it was greatly expanded in the New. Remember the teaching about “you have already committed adultery with her in your heart?” Having any sort of conscious sexual thought is grave matter. Plus all the references in Paul’s epistles to “uncleanness” are about masturbation (it’s a semitic euphemism).

As for OP: very wise stuff from Thomas. There’s no use in learning something that’s not going to aid in salvation, unless you’re becoming a Priest in which case you sort of need a good understanding of theology. The pride that almost always arises from such learning far outweighs any spiritual benefit.

i never knew about Paul and “uncleanness” meaning masturbation… makes sense but um… is there any actual proof that’s what he was talking about?