It is NOT immoral to vote for Democrats

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ChristMyLife said:
If the Democrats win the house tonight, and the troops end up firing on migrants of the caravan, expect a Trump impeachment for crimes against humanity in 2019.
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If the Democrats win the House this evening, I wouldn’t be surprised if President Trump says the people have spoken, and just opens up the immigration gate at Tijuana and let the caravan proceed directly into California.

If the Republicans win, the Caravan will either break up or turn around. President Trump would likely close the border entirely under those circumstances and Mexico doesn’t want to see that.
 
KMC said:
to bear false witness
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To bear false witness you need to lie about something that happened.

Speculating on hypothetical scenarios, while possibly offending Republican sensibilities, is not false witness.

And I disagree with those 2 bishops if their contention was a Catholic cannot in good conscience vote Democrat. The Church teaches no such thing, and I defer to the teaching of the Church instead of the opinion of two individual Bishops.
 
1cthlctrth said:
“A well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law that contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals”
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Voting for a person is not the same thing as voting for every policy that candidate holds.
Catholics must avoid voting for any candidate who intends to support programs or laws that are intrinsically evil.
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This, as well the the 5 non-negotiables is not in Catholic doctrine.
 
Gingersnaps4 said:
Here, this is from 2014. That bbc article may well have been from during trumps admin. But Obama started it.
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Well it’s horrific to put immigrant children or any children at all in cages.

Don’t care who did it, it’s not something a free country like ours should be doing.

I would oppose Obama doing it as strongly as I’d oppose Trump.

In fact, I oppose Obama on any point where he opposes the Church.
 
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I agree with you there. It’s just that many uninformed people are hysterically seizing on that whole issue as something trump thought up, and now he’s like Hitler. Hopefully you can see what I mean. That article I posted has been saved on my phone for a long time and was “updated” in 2016, but it was originally published in 2014. Here is another from 2015, and others like it are easy to find online if one decides to look.

 
Human Dignity is based on developing and respecting human decency. The porn industry was designed, in the 1970s, to bring graphic sex to the average person. The PLANNED addictions occurred. Who paid millions of dollars to print, distribute and rent or lease buildings for this? Who made it legal? Like opium addiction, sex addiction and masturbation addiction were the goals. That’s sick.

And to see two unmarried actors in bed who are having sex without benefit of marriage is sending the wrong message to everybody. It’s not OK or normal. It’s perverted, but that’s the goal - to make perverted sexual situations normative. To the detriment of this country.
 
If ‘We The People,’ truly stood by The Laws of Nature and The God of Nature where the just rights of life and powers to bring about just laws come from;
no one would rise to power that enables the mass murder of thousands of helpless children every single day.
Some ‘progressives’ (not that they all like that title; already let slip, the welfare system
will save money by abortion.
And it isn’t just one issue. A Catholic orphanage had to close because the state by the
combined consent of putting those in power who use pragmatism regarding religious
liberty, rather than true religious liberty in the 1st Amendment tried to force their moral
view on a religious institution. That is diabolical.
Taken as a whole, rather than use ‘progressive,’ the Utopians who have a platform behind them to corrupt the moral of minors in the public school system; take away
the God given right to life; and are an extreme threat and have perpetrated some of their
threats on religious liberty that only a few courageous persons stand up;
just happen to part of the democratic platform.
I’m not a republican nor democrat; I’m not affiliated; but I may go back to registering
republican because I had to vote for a third party candidate who is pro life.
Jesus Christ said, let your ‘yes’ mean ‘yes’ and your ‘no’ mean ‘no,’ anything else is from the devil.
The playing at heartstrings pragmatism; is all part of the powerful delusion that has come upon the world; without the God given right to life of helpless children; all other
rights are in question - and they proved it. Consenting or being complacent to laws and
practices that maintain the status quo; put in revisionist judges who have shown not
being faithful to the founding father’s intent; and help not only keep an atrocity where
thousands of children are torn limb from limb or chemically burned every day is a grave
moral evil.
It is all part of the immense apostasy; and one of the bringers Bishop Fulton J. Sheen spoke of were about 1000 persons diligently trained by The Soviet Union in the 1920s and 1930s who infiltrated Seminaries; became priests and some rose to positions of authority in The Church by the 1950s. And they are very good at socialist pragmatism;
and have many of good will proteges who temporarily let their hearts be played; the one’s who do not realize it; which
is why Evangelium Vitae; "Living The Gospel of Life,’ and other works of The Church that
John Paul ii said are for a sustained ‘sign’ to be integrated in all works of the Church.
Bishop Sheen before 1950 said the Remnant Church would be surrounded by an enabling complacent Church that would look the same to many; but be complacent;
and some even complicit to wide spread blood shed; loss of religious liberty;
and such things. He didn’t know that it would be tens of thousands of helpless tiny
children massacred by Utopian ideologies every single day worldwide. The diabolical’s
main, ‘break a few eggs to make an omelette’ in our day.
The Holy Bible says choose life.
 
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ChristMyLife said:
I would oppose Obama doing it as strongly as I’d oppose Trump.

In fact, I oppose Obama on any poiny where he opposes the Church.
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Here in the United States, there really isn’t that much public support for open borders at this point in time. I think with the Democrats moving sharply to the left- if they win tonight- perhaps a case could be made for an open door policy. But even then, I’m not sure how much President Trump would go for it, after all the work he’s done to expel and imprison foreign terrorists and MS 13 people.
 
If you’ve ever written to a pro-abortion politician about the right to life, you’ve probably received a form letter that utilizes one of several worn-out arguments. Let’s review how we answer them.
  1. “I respect your views, but I have to represent all the people.” Our response: That’s what we’re trying to say to you. If you neglect the unborn, you are not representing all the people. Roe vs. Wade excludes them from protection; we demand that they be included. A public servant cannot legitimately ignore an entire segment of the public that is being destroyed.
  2. “I’m personally opposed to abortion, but can’t impose my views on others.” Our response: This is not a matter of views, but of violence. The law is supposed to protect human life despite the views of those who would destroy it.
  3. “The government should not be involved in such a personal decision as abortion.” Our response: The government got “too involved” in abortion when it claimed to have the authority to deprive some human beings of their right to life. The Declaration of Independence asserts that government exists to secure the rights already bestowed by the Creator. Moreover, when somebody’s “choice” destroys somebody else’s life, that choice is no longer merely a personal, private matter.
  4. “Legislators should not be practicing medicine.” Our response: We’re not asking you to practice medicine, but to prevent the abuse of medicine. The practice of medicine is regulated by all kinds of laws that protect the lives of patients. All we ask is that the unborn be included in that protection.
  5. “Abortion is the law of the land.” Our response: The “law of the land” can be changed, just as it was changed regarding slavery and segregation. Leadership means seeing the injustices that others miss, and inspiring people to utilize the methods the law permits to make necessary changes.
  6. “I support women’s rights and health.” Our response: That is precisely why you should examine the evidence, which is more plentiful than ever, that abortion is destructive of women’s health, and listen to the growing voices of those who have been harmed by abortion. That is also why you should examine how the abortion industry, through unregulated and dangerous clinics, continues to deceive and exploit women.
  7. “Abortion is just one of many issues; I embrace a consistent ethic of life.” Our response: The foundation of a house is only one of many parts of the house, but it is essential in order to build the other parts. That is why the Catholic bishops have repeatedly asserted that among the many interrelated issues within a consistent ethic, abortion deserves "urgent attention and priority " (Pastoral Plan, 2001).’
    I couldn’t fit the last 3 http://www.priestsforlife.org/library/4318-ten-responses-to-pro-abortion-politicians
 
The word Progressive is a lie. Progressives, by definition, only want their version of reality to prevail.
 
I read somewhere that it’s a symbol of charity. Still, I don’t like it. If I were in charge I’d pick a different symbol.
 
ChristMyLife said:
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KMC:
to bear false witness
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To bear false witness you need to lie about something that happened.

Speculating on hypothetical scenarios, while possibly offending Republican sensibilities, is not false witness.

And I disagree with those 2 bishops if their contention was a Catholic cannot in good conscience vote Democrat. The Church teaches no such thing, and I defer to the teaching of the Church instead of the opinion of two individual Bishops.
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  1. If you want to project fantasy into a debate (detaining illegal immigrants = gassing Jews), while at the same time discounting a party’s support for the killing of hundreds of thousands of babies, then that’s on you.
  2. Regarding the bishops. Nowhere did they use the term “Democrat”, but “if the shoe fits”. The two bishops not only are part of “the Church”, as we all are, but they are also part of the Magisterium, which neither you or I are. So for people reading our back and forth, they can choose between the position of 2 bishops or the contrary position of “ChristMyLife / Michael P”.
 
Gingersnaps4 said:
Hitler
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My point in posting that wasn’t to say Trump is Hitler (I have studied Hitler in depth - I do not think Trump is anything at all like Hitler, apart from using similar rhetorical devices about certain things)…

It was to say there are things Trump has said and done which when people draw parralels and comparisons between those things and things which happened under Hitler, they may not be being overly emotional or irrational, but in fact pointing out legitimate parralels.

The reason it’s worrisome is because when a politician does things in a way which evokes Hitler, it’s not an impossibility that that politician could end up doing other horrific things reminiscient of what Hitler did.
 
KMC said:
detaining illegal immigrants = gassing Jews),
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I never said that.

And my picture didn’t show Jews being gassed - it showed them detained in inhumane conditions.

You’re aware many Jews were only detained and not gassed right?

And the reason for that pictorial comparison was to illustrate that people who see similarities between Trump and Hitler aren’t crazy.
 
KMC said:
So for people reading our back and forth, they can choose between the position of 2 bishops or the contrary position of “ChristMyLife / Michael P”.
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It’s not my position, it’s the position of the Church.

There is nothing immoral about voting Democrat.

Do you have anything from the Pope or an Ecumenical Council or a Conference of Bishops or a Synod of Bishops saying voting Democrat is immoral?
 
Sorry, I wasn’t trying to point the finger at you after you first explained that you weren’t comparing him to hitler, but many people do seize on detaining immigrants in those facilities in order to compare him to hitler. As for other parallels, his supporters don’t see it. Like with Obama’s most people either love him or despise him. As I’m sure Obama’s supporters didn’t see in him in certain negative things that people that didn’t support him saw.
 
Sorry my phone corrects “obama” to the plural every time for some reason. Excuse the typos.
 
Only 3 Democrats in the House of Representatives voted to stop abortions after 20 weeks (when the baby is Pain-Capable). 187 Democrats voted to keep 20-week abortions.
The House Republicans voted 234 to 2 in favor of banning 20-week abortions. See where your Congresspeople voted:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2017/roll549.xml
The United States is one of only 7 countries in the world that permits this.
 
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