It is stuff like this that's forcing me move to traditional Catholicism

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I copied this from another thread.

A priest, deacon or Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion can preside.

In the liturgical book “Holy Communion and the Worship of the Eucharist Outside of Mass” it has the ceremony for distributing Communion. The structure is:

Introductory Rites
Greeting
Penitential rite
Celebration of the Word of God “. The Liturgy of the Word now takes place as at Mass.”
Lord’s Prayer
Sign of Peace
Invitation to Communion “This is the Lamb of God …”.
Communion “. During the distribution of communion, a hymn may be sung.”
Silence, psalm or song of praise.
Concluding Prayer
Blessing
Dismissal.
 
TimothyH said:
How can anyone make friends whom they can genuinely love in a meaningful way if they move from parish to parish or go to a parish seven zip codes away from where they live, shop, play golf and four school districts away from where their kids go to school?
-Tim-
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I believe that you are completely correct: and that is a major problem with being a traditionalist. It is compensated by running into the same people at various event, and becoming friends…but that does not take away the accuracy of your critique.

However, for some of us, that is not the ONLY consideration in these troubled times: there are even greater considerations. And, for some of us, that is why we move to be close to a traditional parish if possible.
 
alwayslooking said:
My parish priest is out of town for a few weeks. During this time there is no daily Mass. This is no problem because in my town of 45,000 there are 8 parishes, a national shrine, and a monastery.

I went to a different parish for daily Mass. Upon arrival I discovered that they were just having a communion service that day. I thought “no problem”. Two women led the service. One read all of the readings, the response, and the Gospel of the day. Up until this point I had no problem.

The second woman then led a communion service. She did not consecrate the Eucharist, but she read the following parts from the missal: The Preparation of the Bread & Wine, The Invitation to Prayer, The Prayer Over the Gifts, The Introductory Dialogue, The Sanctus, and the Reception Before Communion.

When she said “The Lord be with you” everyone responded “and also with you” I just started praying for forgiveness. We are not responding to the individual, only a priest has the spirit.

The worst offence was when she raised the host, and then practiced self-communion saying “May the body of Christ bring me to everlasting life” According to the Norms for the Distribution and Reception of the Holy Communion only a priest can practice self-communion.

After the service I asked another member of the congregation how often they have a communion service instead of Mass; he said three times a week. This means that these abuses have occurred hundreds of times over the years. I find it hard to believe that nobody has alerted our conservative bishop.

Okay, I’m done venting now.

This is why I’m moving closer to joining a parish run by the Institute of Christ the King.
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OK, what you classify as the worst offense is not one at all. That’s how it’s done at a ‘Communion Service’ AKA ‘Liturgy of the Word with Communion’ AKA “Distribution of Communion Outside of Mass” AKA “Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest”. The rubrics for such a service are very different from those for Mass.

What was the worst offense was her reading parts of the Eucharistic Prayer. That Prayer belongs to the priest alone and reading it during a Communion Service can lead to misunderstanding of the entire reason for that prayer or worse, seeing no difference between Mass and a Communion Service. No rubrics for Communion Services allow that.

The usual order of service for such services is the Greeting, the Liturgy of the Word and then the Communion Rite. The person who does the Communion Rite takes (and I use that word on purpose) Communion before giving it to the congregation.

It sounds to me as though the Diocese has not issued norms for such a service or nobody involved in this Liturgy in this parish has bothered to read them if they do exist. Even if the diocese has not issued norms, the USCCB has a ritual book for such occasions: “Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest”.
In Canada, the ritual book is called “Sunday Celebration of the Word and Hours” and such celebrations are very distinct from Mass even when Communion is offered.
 
Phemie said:
OK, what you classify as the worst offense is not one at all. That’s how it’s done at a ‘Communion Service’ AKA ‘Liturgy of the Word with Communion’ AKA “Distribution of Communion Outside of Mass” AKA “Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest”. The rubrics for such a service are very different from those for Mass.

What was the worst offense was her reading parts of the Eucharistic Prayer. That Prayer belongs to the priest alone and reading it during a Communion Service can lead to misunderstanding of the entire reason for that prayer or worse, seeing no difference between Mass and a Communion Service. No rubrics for Communion Services allow that.

The usual order of service for such services is the Greeting, the Liturgy of the Word and then the Communion Rite. The person who does the Communion Rite takes (and I use that word on purpose) Communion before giving it to the congregation.

It sounds to me as though the Diocese has not issued norms for such a service or nobody involved in this Liturgy in this parish has bothered to read them if they do exist. Even if the diocese has not issued norms, the USCCB has a ritual book for such occasions: “Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest”.
In Canada, the ritual book is called “Sunday Celebration of the Word and Hours” and such celebrations are very distinct from Mass even when Communion is offered.
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This is just what I thought. I thought that this Communion service didn’t sound as abusive as the OP and several others thought it was. Thank you for posting your information, everyone.

Certainly it is good to be zealous for reverence for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, and the OP is to be commended for this…

But it isn’t good to draw conclusions before doing some research.
 
alwayslooking said:
My parish priest is out of town for a few weeks. During this time there is no daily Mass. This is no problem because in my town of 45,000 there are 8 parishes, a national shrine, and a monastery.

I went to a different parish for daily Mass. Upon arrival I discovered that they were just having a communion service that day. I thought “no problem”. Two women led the service. One read all of the readings, the response, and the Gospel of the day. Up until this point I had no problem.

The second woman then led a communion service. She did not consecrate the Eucharist, but she read the following parts from the missal: The Preparation of the Bread & Wine, The Invitation to Prayer, The Prayer Over the Gifts, The Introductory Dialogue, The Sanctus, and the Reception Before Communion.

When she said “The Lord be with you” everyone responded “and also with you” I just started praying for forgiveness. We are not responding to the individual, only a priest has the spirit.

The worst offence was when she raised the host, and then practiced self-communion saying “May the body of Christ bring me to everlasting life” According to the Norms for the Distribution and Reception of the Holy Communion only a priest can practice self-communion.

After the service I asked another member of the congregation how often they have a communion service instead of Mass; he said three times a week. This means that these abuses have occurred hundreds of times over the years. I find it hard to believe that nobody has alerted our conservative bishop.

Okay, I’m done venting now.

This is why I’m moving closer to joining a parish run by the Institute of Christ the King.
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Do they have a resident priest? I’m not familiar with the Communion service in the event a priest is not available, but I do know that it is SUPPOSED to be VERY temporary, not something regularly scheduled.

That said, if it was acceptable under the circumstances for there to be a Communion service, I don’t know what prayers are permitted by the laity and what aren’t. Isn’t it just the Lord’s prayer?

The only quibble I would have is this: if there is an authorized Communion service in the legitimate absense of a priest (illness, death, whatever the ordinary authorizes), how else would the “presider” receive Communion if they didn’t communicate themselves? Also, while priests are “alter Christi,” I’ve never heard that the “et cum spirito tuo” was apporpriate to only to the ordained. If you can give a citation for that, I’d appreciate it.

Thanks.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Do they have a resident priest? I’m not familiar with the Communion service in the event a priest is not available, but I do know that it is SUPPOSED to be VERY temporary, not something regularly scheduled.

That said, if it was acceptable under the circumstances for there to be a Communion service, I don’t know what prayers are permitted by the laity and what aren’t. Isn’t it just the Lord’s prayer?

The only quibble I would have is this: if there is an authorized Communion service in the legitimate absense of a priest (illness, death, whatever the ordinary authorizes), how else would the “presider” receive Communion if they didn’t communicate themselves? Also, while priests are “alter Christi,” I’ve never heard that the “et cum spirito tuo” was apporpriate to only to the ordained. If you can give a citation for that, I’d appreciate it.

Thanks.
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Certainly Redemptionis Sacramentum discourages weekday Communion Services if there is a Mass celebrated in the parish either on the Sunday before or after. In fact, RS suggests that although it’s important that the parish gather for a Liturgy on Sundays even if there is no priest available, great thought should be put into the decision to actually offer Communion at these Sunday Liturgies in case the importance of celebrating the Eucharist be diminished.

I don’t know about you, but I’ve heard way too many references to “Sister’s Mass” or “Mr. X’s Mass”. I know from conversations I’ve had that many people don’t see any difference between Mass and a Celebration of the Word with Communion. Unfortunately, many bishops and pastors ignore that completely. I’m thankful that in our parish there are no such celebrations on weekdays, and even more thankful that we only infrequently require these on Sunday – although that’s what we’ve had for the last two Sundays since our pastor was ministering to another community who only sees a priest every 2 or 3 months.

As lay leaders of prayer (using ‘presider’ for the laity is forbidden by Redemptionis Sacramentum) we never use the greeting “The Lord be with you”, only priests and deacons use that. We simply open a liturgical celebration with the sign of the cross.

In the same way we don’t use the pre-Gospel dialogue, we simply announce the reading. While I’ve never seen a Roman document detailing that, the explanation of ‘and also with you’ or ‘and with your spirit’ makes it clear that that response is an acknowledgment of the special character imparted by ordination which would make it inappropriate to use it for a lay person.
 
Phemie said:
As lay leaders of prayer (using ‘presider’ for the laity is forbidden by Redemptionis Sacramentum) we never use the greeting “The Lord be with you”, only priests and deacons use that. We simply open a liturgical celebration with the sign of the cross.

In the same way we don’t use the pre-Gospel dialogue, we simply announce the reading.
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I was asking out of curiosity. In Robert Bolt’s “A Man All Seasons,” the author has the Imperial Ambassador to the English court, Eustace Chapuys, address Will Roper, St. Thomas More’s son-in-law, in Latin with “Dominus vobiscum,” to which Roper replied “Et cum spirito tuo.”

What about the prayers and the issue of how the person who conducts the service would receive Communion?

We should pray for more priestly vocations, all of us.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
I was asking out of curiosity. In Robert Bolt’s “A Man All Seasons,” the author has the Imperial Ambassador to the English court, Eustace Chapuys, address Will Roper, St. Thomas More’s son-in-law, in Latin with “Dominus vobiscum,” to which Roper replied “Et cum spirito tuo.”

What about the prayers and the issue of how the person who conducts the service would receive Communion?

We should pray for more priestly vocations, all of us.
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The official ritual totally omits the Liturgy of the Eucharist and jumps from the Liturgy of the Word to the Communion Rite.

The person who retrieves the Blessed Sacrament from the Tabernacle leads the Lord’s Prayer and Sign of Peace then takes a Host, shows it to the people saying “This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, happy are those who are called to his supper” or a version of that, as determined by the ritual book he/she is using.

Then, if he is receiving (remember this is not a Mass so he’s not supposed to receive again if he’s already received Communion that day) he consumes the Host after saying “The body of Christ”. Then he distributes to the assembly.
 
Phemie said:
The official ritual totally omits the Liturgy of the Eucharist and jumps from the Liturgy of the Word to the Communion Rite.

The person who retrieves the Blessed Sacrament from the Tabernacle leads the Lord’s Prayer and Sign of Peace then takes a Host, shows it to the people saying “This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, happy are those who are called to his supper” or a version of that, as determined by the ritual book he/she is using.

Then, if he is receiving (remember this is not a Mass so he’s not supposed to receive again if he’s already received Communion that day) he consumes the Host after saying “The body of Christ”. Then he distributes to the assembly.
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This is what I’ve heard described. So this would be one instance where “self-communication” is officially permitted and from that, at least, we ought not take scandal.

A communion service without a priest, regularly scheduled for three times per week, would be, I should think, highly irregular, if not illicit.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
This is what I’ve heard described. So this would be one instance where “self-communication” is officially permitted and from that, at least, we ought not take scandal.

A communion service without a priest, regularly scheduled for three times per week, would be, I should think, highly irregular, if not illicit.
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Self-communication is perfectly acceptable in a Liturgy such as this.

Weekday Communion Services are discouraged, though not forbidden, by Redemptionis Sacramentum.
[165.] It is necessary to avoid any sort of confusion between this type of gathering and the celebration of the Eucharist.[271] The diocesan Bishops, therefore, should prudently discern whether Holy Communion ought to be distributed in these gatherings. The matter would appropriately be determined in view of a more ample co-ordination in the Bishops’ Conference, to be put into effect after the recognitio of the acts by the Apostolic See through the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. It will be preferable, moreover, when both a Priest and a Deacon are absent, that the various parts be distributed among several faithful rather than having a single lay member of the faithful direct the whole celebration alone. Nor is it ever appropriate to refer to any member of the lay faithful as “presiding” over the celebration.
[166.] Likewise, especially if Holy Communion is distributed during such celebrations, the diocesan Bishop, to whose exclusive competence this matter pertains, must not easily grant permission for such celebrations to be held on weekdays, especially in places where it was possible or would be possible to have the celebration of Mass on the preceding or the following Sunday.
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One is not obligated to attend Communion Services In The Absence Of A Priest. I think they might suit wanna-be women Priests quite nicely. As most people don’t know the rubrics, you could do what you want.

Liberal diocese > Priest shortage > Communion service with women officiating. Saves the diocese money. Panders to notions of equality. Until the implosion.

Some young Irish priests were asked on TV pretty basic questions about the Faith and fluffed them. There’s quite a desert of ignorance out there. And it starts in seminaries staffed by ‘theologians’ who ‘finesse’ the Faith.
 
InquisitorMax said:
One is not obligated to attend Communion Services In The Absence Of A Priest. I think they might suit wanna-be women Priests quite nicely. As most people don’t know the rubrics, you could do what you want.

Liberal diocese > Priest shortage > Communion service with women officiating. Saves the diocese money. Panders to notions of equality. Until the implosion.

Some young Irish priests were asked on TV pretty basic questions about the Faith and fluffed them. There’s quite a desert of ignorance out there. And it starts in seminaries staffed by ‘theologians’ who ‘finesse’ the Faith.
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I’m a woman who sometimes leads the Sunday Celebration of the Word with Communion. I don’t do it to pretend to be a priest. I’ve never had aspirations to the priesthood or even to the religious life. I do it because in that way I can be of service to my parish on the Sundays when our pastor has to be away ministering to a distant mission.

I’d much rather have Mass but our pastor hasn’t mastered the art of bilocation so for now we do with the occasional lay-led services because we have no other choice.
 
Phemie said:
I’m a woman who sometimes leads the Sunday Celebration of the Word with Communion. I don’t do it to pretend to be a priest. I’ve never had aspirations to the priesthood or even to the religious life. I do it because in that way I can be of service to my parish on the Sundays when our pastor has to be away ministering to a distant mission.

I’d much rather have Mass but our pastor hasn’t mastered the art of bilocation so for now we do with the occasional lay-led services because we have no other choice.
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Phemie,

Maybe you can help me understand. If the communion service does not fulfill the Sunday obligation, then why don’t folks go to another mass? Or does it fulfill the obligation.

And if it does not, are the congregants attending an additional mass?
 
TrueLight said:
Phemie,

Maybe you can help me understand. If the communion service does not fulfill the Sunday obligation, then why don’t folks go to another mass? Or does it fulfill the obligation.

And if it does not, are the congregants attending an additional mass?
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In our case there’s no other Mass.
 
If there is no Mass to be had within a reasonable distance then there is no obligation to attend one. One is not obligated to attend a ‘CSITAOAP’ in place of Mass. It is not a Mass.
 
Phemie said:
I’m a woman who sometimes leads the Sunday Celebration of the Word with Communion. I don’t do it to pretend to be a priest. I’ve never had aspirations to the priesthood or even to the religious life. I do it because in that way I can be of service to my parish on the Sundays when our pastor has to be away ministering to a distant mission.

I’d much rather have Mass but our pastor hasn’t mastered the art of bilocation so for now we do with the occasional lay-led services because we have no other choice.
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This doesn’t negate my proposition. It’s an argument from the particular to the general. ‘I am not X, therefore no woman is X’. A CSITAOAP lets a lay woman act the part of a priest. Unless it’s a man officiating. Somehow, I don’t think there will be many men.
 
Phemie said:
I’m a woman who sometimes leads the Sunday Celebration of the Word with Communion. I don’t do it to pretend to be a priest. I’ve never had aspirations to the priesthood or even to the religious life. I do it because in that way I can be of service to my parish on the Sundays when our pastor has to be away ministering to a distant mission.

I’d much rather have Mass but our pastor hasn’t mastered the art of bilocation so for now we do with the occasional lay-led services because we have no other choice.
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Good for you.

It takes some guts to stand in front of any crowd, and there is tremendous spiritual pressure when approaching the ambo, altar, tabernacle or sanctuary in the context of any type of liturgical service, be it Mass, Communion Service, Novena or whatever. It is an awsome responsiblity Phemie has undertaken - to lead prayer and to distribute Holy Communion to the faithful in the absence of a Mass.

I would never settle for a communion service when there is a Mass avialable but since there is none, Phemie should be congratulated for stepping forward and doing what many condemn but few would have the guts to do themselves.

What are the people supposed to do. Go to an Evangelical Church?

-Tim-
 
InquisitorMax said:
This doesn’t negate my proposition. It’s an argument from the particular to the general. ‘I am not X, therefore no woman is X’. A CSITAOAP lets a lay woman act the part of a priest. Unless it’s a man officiating. Somehow, I don’t think there will be many men.
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In our parish, we have two men and two women.
 
TimothyH said:
Good for you.

It takes some guts to stand in front of any crowd, and there is tremendous spiritual pressure when approaching the ambo, altar, tabernacle or sanctuary in the context of any type of liturgical service, be it Mass, Communion Service, Novena or whatever. It is an awsome responsiblity Phemie has undertaken - to lead prayer and to distribute Holy Communion to the faithful in the absence of a Mass.
-Tim-
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I should clarify that I lead the prayer, I do not distribute Communion since I’m not a commissioned EMHC and have no wish to be one. I lead the prayer until the Communion Rite and then an EMHC takes over. That’s how the Church prefers that it be done rather than one person doing everything.
 
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