It is Written

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~{Zech.9:9}~
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, *
thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.*

~{Matt.21:5}~
6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,
7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.*

you can find the rest of the story in Leviticus and Deut.
  • *And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; *others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way. *9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, **Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; *Hosanna in the highest.
 
Yes it does make a proficy about Christ, but they did not have the book of Mark to tell them that Christ did that. The only way they know is because the apostles told them what Christ did. You can not derive the Christian teachings from the old testament.
 
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Buzzard:
  • that if the people who can claim a direct line of teaching from the first apostles are wrong
That just might be the Problem with
“Just accepting anything” that was taught by the 1st Day Church,
Too many of the Students of the Apostles;
either just didn’t get it right, or they Apostized That John claims these Apostate Students were Anti-Christ,
and Paul says they transformed themselves into Apostles
and were accepted as ministers or teachers of Righteousness is just
one more reason for the Standard of the Written word,
as Luke saith
  • ~{Luke 1:1-4}~
    to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, *4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, *wherein thou hast been instructed
.

Its plain that not all the 1st day church got everthing right,
and their understanding left something to be desired
  • ~{John 21:23}~
    *Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, **that that disciple should not die: **yet Jesus said not unto him, *He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
Just one more reason for the written word
  • *It seemed good to me also, *having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee
Oral Teachings and Traditions leave a lot to be desired,
unless they are backed up in writting from those chosen to write scripture for us
other wise we are left at the mercy of our teachers
  • ~{Acts 15:1}~
    And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
    ---------------------------------
    ------ James Speaking     ------- Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them,
    and
*25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, *to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

Just one more reason for the written word,
that men, over the years have twisted and rejected it for something else
“* and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon*”
is not the fault of the Scriptures
  • ~{1Cor.10:11}~
    *Now all these things happened unto them for examples: *and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Just on more reason for
That Which is Written as the final authority
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Hi Buzzard! 👋

I see what you’re saying, but even the apostles understood that the written word can be misinterpreted and that a spirit-lead, human voice is necessary to ensure an accurate understanding.

Acts 15:27 So we are sending Judas and Silas to tell you what we have decided concerning your question.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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Buzzard:
I suppose you are going to have to explain that too me,
because I’m just not sure what you mean
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I am trying to understand your point… You are talking about Moses and the prophets right? The Old Testament…? And, you are quoting the New Testament…? What is the point you are trying to make about the early writings and the Old Testament? What bible do you use by the way?
 
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AmyS:
I am trying to understand your point… You are talking about Moses and the prophets right? The Old Testament…? And, you are quoting the New Testament…? What is the point you are trying to make about the early writings and the Old Testament? What bible do you use by the way?
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Buzzard’s Beautiful Bible with commentary.
 
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Apologia100:
Buzzard’s Beautiful Bible with commentary.
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Ah ha, that is why it wasn’t making sense to me. You think it has pretty pictures?
 
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MichelleTherese:
Protestants have one Bible but thousands of different interpretations. Why would the Holy Spirit author such caos? You have to ask: Which Protestant church has the correct interpretation of scripture? After all, does baptism save or is it just a symbol? And do you or don’t you baptise infants? (for example)
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Here’s another example: When I first became a Christian (about 5 years before coming Catholic) I came across some Seventh Day Adventist literature. According to them, worship on Sunday is the Mark of the Beast, and those who worship on that day are damned. I was like “Wow!” I mean, are they right? They quoted Scripture to back up their statements, so they must be right, shouldn’t they?
 
Buzzard,
In Isaiah 53:v 3 - 12 , who is Isaiah writing about? This was available to the Apostles. Who is the subject of Isaiah’s writing?:tiphat:
 
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Buzzard:
Protestants are under the control of
a single legal and administrative body"
and that would be God the Father

for as Christ saith
his kingdom is not of this world
  • They may be split as to the correct understanding of certain doctrines,
    They may have opposing views as to the correct way of doing things
    They may be in disobedience to the command of the Husbandman,
    They may be confused and blindly following the wrong leaders
    They may call themselves by different names
    but they are all under **the sole administration of God the Father
**

And you know the rest of the story
Notice he did not put all his goods
in the care of only One Servant
-----{Peter}----
nor did he place One Servant
as Lord over the others
He left his goods “divided” amongst his Servants,
As he saw fit
And each one was given and had complete control
over how he used the portion given to him by the master,
And answerable only to the Master,
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The Invisible Church theory.

Judging from your statement, the people at Former Catholics for Christ, Dr. James White, David Hunt, Martin Luther and Jimmy Swaggart each has a portion of God’s “goods” under their care, although they may be talking and sounding differently.

Besides, a family that is divided and is still dividing among themselves doesn’t seem to have a good administrator, and hence are you saying then that God is the God of dissension? Of differences?

How can you reconcile this with Paul’s injunction for us to glorify God with one mind and one mouth (Romans 15:5-6)?

Gerry 🙂
 
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RobedWithLight:
How can you reconcile this with Paul’s injunction for us to glorify God with one mind and one mouth (Romans 15:5-6)?

Gerry 🙂
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Don’t forget Jesus’ words that a “house divided cannot stand” (Matthew 12:25; Mark 3:25). Or Paul’s words that there be “one faith, one baptism, one Lord” (Ephesians 4:5)
 
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=307006&postcount=4
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RobedWithLight:
Which brings us back to the same old question : Who is to rightfully interpret “that which is written”?

The fact of the matter is that 30,000 plus Christian denominations** all** claiming the same thing can’t seem to agree even among themselves.

Gerry 🙂
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Question
What does that Prove
other than as Paul said
~{1Tim.1:7}~
some have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

or as Peter saith
~{2Peter 3:16}~
*which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
*

Job Pleads
~{Job 31:35}~
Oh that one would hear me! behold, my desire is,
that the Almighty would answer me,
and that mine adversary had written a book.
36 Surely I would take it upon my shoulder, and bind it as a crown to me.

as Solomon and Luke saith
~{Proverbs 22:19}~
That thy trust may be in the LORD, I have made known to thee this day, even to thee.
20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,
21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?

~{Luke 1:3}~
to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things,
wherein thou hast been instructed.

Just on more reason for the written word;
that we are to study for ourselves so we will
"Know of a certainty
wherein we hast been instructed.

lest we also be led astray

Back too the question
33,000 different denominations
What does that Prove
 
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=307006&postcount=4
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RobedWithLight:
Which brings us back to the same old question : Who is to rightfully interpret “that which is written”?

The fact of the matter is that 30,000 plus Christian denominations** all** claiming the same thing can’t seem to agree even among themselves.

Gerry 🙂
Click to expand...
Question
What does that Prove
other than as Paul said
  • ~{1Tim.1:7}~
    some have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
or as Peter saith
  • ~{2Peter 3:16}~
    which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. **
Job Pleads
  • ~{Job 31:35}~
    Oh that one would hear me! behold, my desire is, *that the Almighty would answer me, *and that mine adversary had written a book. 36 Surely I would take it upon my shoulder, and bind it as a crown to me.
as Solomon and Luke saith
  • ~{Proverbs 22:19}~
    That thy trust may be in the LORD, I have made known to thee this day, even to thee. 20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge, 21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?
~{Luke 1:3}~
to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, *4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, *wherein thou hast been instructed.

Just on more reason for the written word;
that we are to study for ourselves so we will
  • "Know of a certainty wherein we hast been instructed.
lest we also be led astray

Back too the question
33,000 different denominations
**What does that Prove

**
 
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=307006&postcount=4
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RobedWithLight:
Which brings us back to the same old question : Who is to rightfully interpret “that which is written”?

The fact of the matter is that 30,000 plus Christian denominations** all** claiming the same thing can’t seem to agree even among themselves.

Gerry 🙂
Click to expand...
Question
What does that Prove
other than as Paul said
~{1Tim.1:7}~
some have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

or as Peter saith
~{2Peter 3:16}~
*which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
*

Job Pleads
~{Job 31:35}~
Oh that one would hear me! behold, my desire is,
that the Almighty would answer me,
and that mine adversary had written a book.
36 Surely I would take it upon my shoulder, and bind it as a crown to me.

as Solomon and Luke saith
~{Proverbs 22:19}~
That thy trust may be in the LORD, I have made known to thee this day, even to thee.
20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,
21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?

~{Luke 1:3}~
to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things,
wherein thou hast been instructed.

Just on more reason for the written word;
that we are to study for ourselves so we will
"Know of a certainty
wherein we hast been instructed.

lest we also be led astray

Back too the question
33,000 different denominations
What does that Prove
 
Buzzard said:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=307006&postcount=4

Question
What does that Prove
other than as Paul said
  • ~{1Tim.1:7}~
    some have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
or as Peter saith
  • ~{2Peter 3:16}~
    which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. **
Job Pleads
  • ~{Job 31:35}~
    Oh that one would hear me! behold, my desire is, *that the Almighty would answer me, *and that mine adversary had written a book. 36 Surely I would take it upon my shoulder, and bind it as a crown to me.
as Solomon and Luke saith
  • ~{Proverbs 22:19}~
    That thy trust may be in the LORD, I have made known to thee this day, even to thee. 20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge, 21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?
~{Luke 1:3}~
to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, *4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, *wherein thou hast been instructed.

Just on more reason for the written word;
that we are to study for ourselves so we will
  • "Know of a certainty wherein we hast been instructed.
lest we also be led astray

Back too the question
33,000 different denominations
  • What does that Prove
Click to expand...

Hi Buzzard! 👋

It proves that there must be a divinely -lead authority ouside of scripture in order for scripture to be correctly understood. Therefore it’s not scripture alone but scripture plus the divinely -lead authority needed for correct interpretation.

Since we can know the holy Spirit does not give contradictory intrpretations of his word it proves that that divinely -lead authority is not the individual believer.

In Christ,
Nancy
 
Hi Buzzard! :tiphat:

Some questions for you.

Paul writes to the Galatians "But if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] another gospel other than the one we preaches to you, let that one be accursed!" (Chap 1, vs 8).
Here is my problem: I wasn’t present in Galatia when Paul preached in Galatia 2,000 years ago. When someone knocks on my door with a Bible in their hand and preaching the “gospel,” how do I know that it is the same one that Paul preached. This is particularly important when there are several different groups, all quoting Scripture, but all with a different Gospel? How do I know which one is correct?

Second question: Paul writes in Romans 10:14 **"But how can they call on him whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? **You notice, Paul talks about people HEARING PREACHING, not about someone reading tracts someone has written.
If, as you say, oral traditions cannot be trusted, then the Apostles erred in going around preaching. They should have instead spent their time distributing Bibles, so their message would not be perverted (and yet, many Christians cannot agree on what the Bible teaches).

One final question. What do you do if you are illiterate, or can’t afford a Bible? This is not a hypothetical question. Until the advent of the printing press, books were beyond the reach of most people, and most people throughout history (and even in our own day) are illiterate. This means they have to rely on someone to read the Bible to them, and hope what they say is the truth. I recall reading a story in Kevin Orlin Johnson’s book Why Do Catholics Do That? about the Rabbi Hillel, who died when Jesus was a boy. A Gentile came to him for instruction, and said, “I’ll believe you about the written Torah, but not about the oral. Take me on as a convert on condition that you teach me the written Torah only.” The rabbi agreed, and spent the first day teaching the man the Hebrew alphabet. The next day the rabbi again taught the man the Hebrew alphabet, but in reverse. When the man complained, Hillel said, “If you have depend on me to teach you the alphabet, how much more must you depend on me for the interpretation of the Torah.”

BTW, don’t forget to answer the 4 questions I posed in post #15. Thank you! 🙂
 
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Catholic4aReasn:
Hi Buzzard! 👋

It proves that there must be a divinely -lead authority ouside of scripture in order for scripture to be correctly understood. Therefore it’s not scripture alone but scripture plus the divinely -lead authority needed for correct interpretation.

Since we can know the holy Spirit does not give contradictory intrpretations of his word it proves that that divinely -lead authority is not the individual believer.

In Christ,
Nancy
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Oh, then Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah and the list goes on and on was not as you say the individual beleiver
they were definatly at odds with
“the divinly led authority”

How about Elijiah ???
if there ever was a man on his own
ie:
the individual beleiver
he was it

Once again;
the reason the Book was written
  • ~{Isaiah 30:8}~
    *Now go, write it before them in a table, **and note it in a book, *that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
    Same as Paul says
    ~{1Cor.10:11}~
    *Now all these things happened unto them for examples: **and they are written for our admonition, *upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Scripture was written primarially for One {1} Generation
so that we might have a
“Good and Faithful Wittness”
and not the words of these guys
  • *And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, **Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become **the habitation of devils, **and the hold of every foul spirit,, **and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird., *
 
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Buzzard:
Oh, then Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah and the list goes on and on was not as you say the individual beleiver
they were definatly at odds with
“the divinly led authority”

How about Elijiah ???
if there ever was a man on his own
ie:
the individual beleiver
he was it
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Buzzard,

Where in the New Testament does it say Christians are to be a “denomination of one?” Instead, we are told “Do not forsake meeting together, as some have done” (Hebrews 10:25). Also, in Matthew 18:15-19, Jesus outlines the steps for dealing with an erring Christian. It seems to me that he intended the leaders of His Church to have authority over the individual believer.

A couple other questions (in addition to the ones I’m still waiting for you to answer): If oral tradition is unreliable, and only the written word can be trusted, why is it Jesus never wrote a word of Scripture? And why did the church wait so long (about 20 or 30 years) before writing any of the Gospels? Surely in that time if Jesus life and sayings were only in oral tradition, it must have become corrupted.

Also: In the first couple centuries of the church, there were several other writings floating about that claimed to be “the Gospel”, or claimed to be written by apostles. How do you know that those writings, and not those currently in the NT, aren’t the true words of Jesus and the Apostles.?

Am eagerly awaiting your response. 🙂
 
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RNRobert:
Buzzard,

You need to realize that
  • Oral tradition was all Christians had to go on for the first couple decades of the church
  • It took a few centuries for the NT canon to be settled
So, if oral tradition went off the rails from the start, then how can you trust the NT? For all you know, a writing written by heretics may have been accepted while a genuine apostolic writing may have been rejected. This is what Dan Brown claims in his book The Da Vinci Code: That the Church “suppressed” writings about the “real” Jesus.

Furthermore, there are thousands of denoms that claim to use the Bible to teach contradicting doctrines. Without oral tradition, there is no way of knowing what the Apostles meant when they wrote.
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Although I’m no scholar I know that the Jews of Jesus’s time had the writings of Moses and the prophets. Some of those Jews converted to Christianity and still had those writings. So, they oral tradition wasn’t all they had to go on.
 
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ahimsaman72:
Although I’m no scholar I know that the Jews of Jesus’s time had the writings of Moses and the prophets. Some of those Jews converted to Christianity and still had those writings. So, they oral tradition wasn’t all they had to go on.
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True, but the teachings of and about Jesus were disseminated orally for the first couple decades. The OT did prophecy the coming of Jesus, which was important in preaching to the Jews. However, as time went on, more and more converts were Gentiles, many of them who knew little about the Jewish religion, and probably couldn’t have cared less about OT prophecies.
 
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