It needs reiterating: The Second Vatican Council was pastoral, not dogmatic! (With a note concerning the SSPX)

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Were Lefebvre and Ottaviani and the Roman Curia heretics or conservative Catholics that wanted to hold on to the traditional teachings of the church.?
Hello!

Did you bother reading what I said?

I said he did nail it on how it would be misinterpreted. And heretics HAVE misinterpreted it in the way he predicted!
Error does not have God-given rights.
I agree.

And the Church teaches this.

The problem is: those who oppose V2 are not listening to the Church teaching this.

My point still stands untouched by you: Blame the heretic, not the council.
 
Hello!

Did you bother reading what I said?

I said he did nail it on how it would be misinterpreted. And heretics HAVE misinterpreted it in the way he predicted!

I agree.

And the Church teaches this.

The problem is: those who oppose V2 are not listening to the Church teaching this.

My point still stands untouched by you: Blame the heretic, not the council.
70 Fathers including Mgr. Lefebvre and Cardinal Ottaviani voted against the declaration. As Cardinal Ottaviani said, " a very serious matter to assert that every kind of religion has the freedom to propagate itself.” In others words errors have rights.

What about Cardinal Palacios who said “new doctrine being favored at the expense of traditional doctrine

They must be heretics for them to believe in their statements.

What do you not understand about this:
Pius IX “Quanta Cura” 3.2 “that erroneous opinion, most fatal in its effects on the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls, called by Our Predecessor, Gregory XVI, an “insanity,” that “liberty of conscience and worship is each man’s personal right….whereby they may be able to openly and publicly to manifest and declare any of their ideas whatever, either by word or mouth…they do not think and consider that they are preaching “liberty of perdition”

The Church has always taught that you can believe in whatever you want in private but you ****cannot publicily ****preach error. It is not a God given right to preach error.
 
As a Catholic, you are free to reject anything from Vatican II that doesn’t agree with all previous councils and the doctrines of the Faith.
V2 binds in conscience - so no such freedom exists ##
The fact that the SSPX and the Church hierarchy get so “worked up” about Vatican II is evidence that there are deeper, personal issues between the two than there are doctrinal issues.

The SSPX has no hierarchs - only servants of satan who are leading them to damnation​

My advice is: let the hierarchs of the SSPX and the Church work it out amongst themselves, and the laity to remain united, both part of the One True Church. SSPXers, don’t criticize the laity for attending Novus Ordo Masses, and “Church” laity, don’t criticize SSPXers for not accepting every little bit of everything that came out of the Second Vatican Council. If the laity are united, the hierarchs will soon be also.

the SSPX deserve to be criticised - they are pseudo-Catholics & rebels against the legitimate authority of the Church, so anyone who heeds them is most unwise​

 
Concerning religious liberty and Catholic teaching on conscience, read these (freedom of conscience is a very traditional Catholic doctrine that was perverted by Liberals; it was the perversion condemned in the 19th century):

Cardinal Newman on Conscience

Religious Freedom and Dignitatis Humanae: A Right to Pick Whatever ‘Religion’ You Wish?

Bishop de Smedt’s Relatio on Religious Liberty

Catholics and Religious Freedom: St. Thomas Aquinas vs. Know-Nothing Propaganda

Obligated, but Free: An Evaluation of Dignitatis Humanae

John Paul II on Newman’s teaching on conscience

Here is a page with additional articles (I recommend those by Fr. Brian Harrison).

Also see Catechism sections 2108, 2109.

As Pius XII said, “it belongs to them [theologians] to point out how the doctrine of the living Teaching Authority is to be found either explicitly or implicitly in the Scriptures and in Tradition.”

How about we adopt this traditional approach instead of the complete novelty of trying to point out how the doctrine of living Teaching Authority is not found in Tradition?
 
Also, here is a reminder from a pretty old catechism:

Q. Is it a great sin to refuse submission to a general Council?

A. It is the greatest act of criminal pride and presumption, accompanied by the awful guilt of heresy or schism, or both. We call it extremely criminal, as well as irrational; because the man who will not submit, prefers his own single opinion*—and this in a matter, regarding which he is neither qualified nor authorized to judge—*to the deliberately formed decision of an immense assemblage of the best qualified, and most competently authorized, legitimate judges.
 
As a Catholic, you are free to reject anything from Vatican II that doesn’t agree with all previous councils and the doctrines of the Faith.
So what if Pope Paul VI said in the closing address that the Second Vatican Council was a pastoral council? Two dogmatic constitutions still emerged. Lumen Gentium and Dei Verbum. (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church and Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation). These are non-negotiable.
 
Well the point has been made time and again over the centuries that Faith requires and act of the will and that one has no right to force the decision against the will.
Saying religious liberty is an error does not mean others should be forced to convert. Those are two different things. The Church has always maintained the principle of “religious toleration” whereby the State tolerates false religions without every saying man has a right to belong to them.
Hence the freedom to chose ones religion and possibly make a wrong choice. It is not a right to choose wrongly it is a freedom to do so. Subtle but there is a difference.
The subtle difference is made clear when you distinguish between natural freedom (free will) or moral freedom. Since we all have free will, we are free to do whatever we want. We can kill othe people, we can have abortions, we can do anything we want because we have free will. However, moral freedom is what we are allowed to do, and thus have a right to do. No one has a right to have an abortion, or kill an innocent person. The limits of our natural freedom (free will) are set by law. A violation of a law is a violation of our moral freedom. Obviously, Divine positive law always usurps human law; and no human law can grant someone a “right” to do what God forbids. Man’s law can tolerate violations of God’s law (like God Himself does), but human law can never say man has a right to act contrary to Divine law.

Since the practice of a false religion is a violation of Divine law, many obviously has no “right” to do so.

If you read Libertas, by Pope Leo XIII, all of this is made perfectly clear. I could give you a much more thorough answer here, but the Pope’s words have much more authority than mine.
That being said, I told another friend today that the smart position is not to try to privately interpret the documents of the Council … we are bound to accept Vatican II as a legitimate Ecumenical Council and at least three Popes have said yes. So…do you follow the Pope or your private interpretation?
I follow the Pope, unless of course the Pope deviates into error and does what every Catholic should know is false. Let me give you an example of where I will never follow John Paul II.

As we know, false religions are a great offense to God, a mortal sin against the first commandment; and lead souls away from God and into hell. A horrible thing!

In spite of the fact that false religions are a mortal sin, John Paul II invited members of just about every false religion known to man (including snake worshippers and witch doctors) to Assisi, and provided them with their very own room, in which they could commit a mortal sin against the first commandment by performing false worship. John Paul II thought that God be so pleased with these mortal sins that he would grant “world peace”. John Paul also considered the false religion of Islam to be a “great religion” and held in in “esteem”. I believe Islam is a false religion and I despise it. So, in these things I did not follow John Paul II. Do you fault me for that?

For the record, I have never read anything from a Pope prior to Vatican II that I have ever disagreed with. These encyclicals are always a great light to my intellect and a joy to read. I know the voice of those Popes. Jesus said “my sheep hear my voice, I know mine, and mine know me, but a stranger they follow not”.

The voice of the Popes before Vatican II is a voice I know. When I used to hear John Paul II speak of a new “civilization of love” with the “three great monotheistic religions” that was the voice of a stranger. I knew it not. I would have acted violated my conscience and the teachings of the Church if I would have imitated John Paul II by praising false religions and inviting representatives of false religions to my Church and asking them to commit a mortal sin against the first commandment.

So, to answer you question: I certainly do follow the Pope, but only when he teaches what the Church has always taught, and never when he deviates from it.

These conversations can go on forever. Rather than us going back and forth here (I am too busy at work for that right now), please read “Libertas” by Pope Leo XIII, and maybe also “Mortalium Animos” of Pope Pius XI. Libertas exposes and condemns false liberties (such as religious liberty), and Mortalium Animos condemns false ecumenism. If you read these, you should be able to see the amazing contradictions between the actions and teachings of John Paul II and the pre-conciliar Popes.

Since the Church has taugt the same thing for 2,000 years, I reject the contrary even if it is taught by a Pope.
 
So what if Pope Paul VI said in the closing address that the Second Vatican Council was a pastoral council? Two dogmatic constitutions still emerged. Lumen Gentium and Dei Verbum. (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church and Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation). These are non-negotiable.
Just having the word “dogmatic” doesn’t make it so.

“The truth is that this particular council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council” {cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefest of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, El Mercurio, July 17,1988}
 
The voice of the Popes before Vatican II is a voice I know. When I used to hear John Paul II speak of a new “civilization of love” with the “three great monotheistic religions” that was the voice of a stranger. I knew it not. I would have acted violated my conscience and the teachings of the Church if I would have imitated John Paul II by praising false religions and inviting representatives of false religions to my Church and asking them to commit a mortal sin against the first commandment.

So, to answer you question: I certainly do follow the Pope, but only when he teaches what the Church has always taught, and never when he deviates from it.

These conversations can go on forever. Rather than us going back and forth here (I am too busy at work for that right now), please read “Libertas” by Pope Leo XIII, and maybe also “Mortalium Animos” of Pope Pius XI. Libertas exposes and condemns false liberties (such as religious liberty), and Mortalium Animos condemns false ecumenism. If you read these, you should be able to see the amazing contradictions between the actions and teachings of John Paul II and the pre-conciliar Popes.

Since the Church has taugt the same thing for 2,000 years, I reject the contrary even if it is taught by a Pope…
I felt the same thing when I discovered the writings of the earlier popes…funny thing is, no one in my growing up ever ever talked about these popes or their teaching…it was only after discovering the TLM that I found myself looking these up and reading them.

The reaction from even faithful devout conservative catholics in my family when they learned I was reading pre-Vatican II popes? “Be careful” Can you imagine that?!?!

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 
The Documents of the Second Vatican Council were written with sufficiently ambiguous language to be interpreted in either a Traditional or New sense.
Our Holy Mother Church was intentionally using ambiguous language to effectively change practices without formally changing doctrines.
In order to carry this out, a whole generation, (mine) was not properly taught their faith. Since nature abhors a vacuum, the Evangelicals took literally millions of people from the Church.
The don’t ask, don’t tell policies regarding homosexuals entering the Priesthood, turned Semenaries into “pink palaces” and lead to the most horrible example of Clerical abuse in Church History.
But yet, miraculously the Church still stands. The Church now seems to be turning around again.
 
These conversations can go on forever. Rather than us going back and forth here (I am too busy at work for that right now), please read “Libertas” by Pope Leo XIII, and maybe also “Mortalium Animos” of Pope Pius XI. Libertas exposes and condemns false liberties (such as religious liberty), and Mortalium Animos condemns false ecumenism. If you read these, you should be able to see the amazing contradictions between the actions and teachings of John Paul II and the pre-conciliar Popes.
No, it doesn’t. Mortalium Animos condmens the pan-Christian movements–watering down doctrine until all can agree–as does both the Second Vatican Council and John Paul II’s Ut Unum Sint. Leo XIII himself established an interfaith organization to work towards unity, “The Confraternity of Compassion.”

You need to read all such documents in full, and not the clipped and edited versions found on certain websites.

As for Libertas, he is rejectiong religious liberty based on laicism. He rejects “liberty of conscience.” But, he is not rejecting “liberty of consciences.” Pius XI draws the distinction in his encyclical Non abbiamo bisogno. The relatio for the Council I linked to above traces the development on this issue from Gregory XVI through the Council. The Church has continuously defended the authentic rights and duties of consciences–and the true rights and liberties of man.

As Pius XI says in the above encyclical, after expressing how all “have worried and suffered and are worrying and suffering in the presence of the systematic campaign all too quickly begun against the most reasonable and precious liberties of religion and of consciences” he reminds us that "We lately declared Ourselves happy and proud to wage the good fight for the liberty of consciences. No indeed (as someone, perhaps inadvertently, has represented Us as saying) for “the liberty of conscience, which is an equivocal expression too often distorted to mean the absolute independence of conscience and therefore an absurdity in reference to a soul created and redeemed by God.”

The Second Vatican Council also makes this same distinguish, distingushing from laicism, where as man’s conscience has no restraints at all put on it (in fact it has many restraints put on it by God), but rather it is arguing, like Pius XI, against the state’s violation of the authentic liberties of individual consciences.
 
The reaction from even faithful devout conservative catholics in my family when they learned I was reading pre-Vatican II popes? “Be careful” Can you imagine that?!?!
I HEARTILY recommend reading as many as you can, and not just the ones with pre-interpreted clips given by certain dissident traditionalist groups. Read them all–it was doing so that led me away from certain SSPX type positions. Also read as many post Concilliar one’s as possible–because you have to also see what some accuse the Church of teaching, actually are not taught. If you want my reading list, I will gladly provide it (papal encyclicals, writings of the Doctors, and all 21 Councils). Send me a PM 🙂 (although, the list of encyclicals is 8 pages long, so it will probably take multiple PMs).
 
I felt the same thing when I discovered the writings of the earlier popes…funny thing is, no one in my growing up ever ever talked about these popes or their teaching…it was only after discovering the TLM that I found myself looking these up and reading them.

The reaction from even faithful devout conservative catholics in my family when they learned I was reading pre-Vatican II popes? “Be careful” Can you imagine that?!?!

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
In my opinion they are written under the influence if two different spirits. There is a spiritual contradiction between the two. They are opposed to one another. Here’s a story that confirms it.

Last year I was on a work assignment in Florida. I was rooming with a person who almost had his doctrine in Thomistic Philosophy. The surprising thing is, although he had studies Thomistic philosophy, he was a hippie liberal Catholic. We used to get into all kinds of discussions/arguments.

One day I asked him if he had ever read the encyclicals of the Popes prior to Vatican II. He got a disgusted look on his face and said he had. I asked what he thought of them. He said he didn’t think “they got it”. Basically, he was just as disgusted by the writings of the pre-Vatican II Popes as I was by those of John Paul II.
 
…The Second Vatican Council also makes this same distinguish, distingushing from laicism, where as man’s conscience has no restraints at all put on it (in fact it has many restraints put on it by God), but rather it is arguing, like Pius XI, against the state’s violation of the authentic liberties of individual consciences.
That is the proper understanding/interpretation of the Council - but the text itself can be interpreted either way precisely because of the ambiguities.

I dare say, it is more easily read with the erroneous undestanding that with the proper one. If one already knows the catholic understanding he can read them (with some difficulty) in that light. But if one doesn’t know the catholic understanding and is looking for it - they can easily walk away from the more recent document with a misunderstading. I don’t think this was the case with pre-Vatican II stuff.

And where, aside from the traditional catholic “camp”, has the catholic understanding been clearly and explicitly taught?

Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
 
No, it doesn’t. Mortalium Animos condmens the pan-Christian movements–watering down doctrine until all can agree–as does both the Second Vatican Council and John Paul II’s Ut Unum Sint. Leo XIII himself established an interfaith organization to work towards unity, “The Confraternity of Compassion.”

Please :rolleyes: . Seeking unity by trying to convert heretics and schismatics into the Church (which is what the Church has always done) is completely different than inviting members of every false religion known to man to Assisi to so that they could commit, at the request of John Paul II, a mortal sin against the first commandment. One is true ecumenism and the other is false.
You need to read all such documents in full, and not the clipped and edited versions found on certain websites.
I don’t do my research on websites. I do read the entire encyclicals. I would suggest that you do the same. If you do, and if you are honest, there is no way you will not see the striking differences.
As for Libertas, he is rejectiong religious liberty based on laicism.
No, he is rejecting religious liberty based on the fact that every man is bound to worship God according to the way God wants to be worshipped…
Libertas: "19. To make this more evident, the growth of liberty ascribed to our age must be considered apart in its various details. And, first, let us examine that liberty in individuals which is so opposed to the virtue of religion, namely, the liberty of worship, as it is called. This is based on the principle that every man is free to profess as he may choose any religion or none.
  1. But, assuredly, of all the duties which man has to fulfill, that, without doubt, is the chiefest and holiest which commands him to worship God with devotion and piety. This follows of necessity from the truth that we are ever in the power of God, are ever guided by His will and providence, and, having come forth from Him, must return to Him. Add to which, no true virtue can exist without religion, for moral virtue is concerned with those things which lead to God as man’s supreme and ultimate good; and therefore religion, which (as St. Thomas says) “performs those actions which are directly and immediately ordained for the divine honor,” rules and tempers all virtues. And if it be asked which of the many conflicting religions it is necessary to adopt, reason and the natural law unhesitatingly tell us to practice that one which God enjoins, and which men can easily recognize by certain exterior notes, whereby Divine Providence has willed that it should be distinguished, because, in a matter of such moment, the most terrible loss would be the consequence of error. Wherefore, when a liberty such as We have described [religious liberty] is offered to man, the power is given him to pervert or abandon with impunity the most sacred of duties, and to exchange the unchangeable good for evil; which, as We have said, is no liberty, but its degradation, and the abject submission of the soul to sin.
Genesis 3:15:
He rejects “liberty of conscience.” But, he is not rejecting “liberty of consciences.”
He reject liberty of conscience, but no liberty of consciences? Surely you are not trying to draw a distinction between the two, are you? Let me guess, you believe that based on “clipped and edited versions found on certain websites”, right?

The Pope does not distinguish between liberty of conscience and liberty of consiences (as if there is a difference). What he distinguishes between is true vs. false liberty of conscience.

True liberty of consience means that those members of the true religion have the right to folllow their conscience when it is properly formed; while members of a false religion have no right to follow their conscience in error. In other words, we only have liberty of conscience when our consceince is according to the truth.

continue
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continuation
Genesis 3:15:
The Church has continuously defended the authentic rights and duties of consciences–and the true rights and liberties of man.
And it is as I decribed above. The right to follow ones conscience when it is formed correctly, but not the right to follow it into error. For example, if John Paul II asked me to take part in Muslim worship, I could refuse based on liberty of conscience, since I know that false worship is a sin. However, a Muslim cannot use liberty of conscience to justify his false worship since false worship is contrary to the truth.
Genesis 3:15:
As Pius XI says in the above encyclical, after expressing how all “have worried and suffered and are worrying and suffering in the presence of the systematic campaign all too quickly begun against the most reasonable and precious liberties of religion and of consciences” he reminds us that "We lately declared Ourselves happy and proud to wage the good fight for the liberty of consciences. No indeed (as someone, perhaps inadvertently, has represented Us as saying) for “the liberty of conscience, which is an equivocal expression too often distorted to mean the absolute independence of conscience and therefore an absurdity in reference to a soul created and redeemed by God.”
Right. He is discussing true liberty of conscience, which Catholic enjoy. Thus, if the communists forbid the practice of the Catholic faith, Catholics have, based on liberty of conscience, the right to practice their faith none-the-less.
Gen3:15:
The Second Vatican Council also makes this same distinguish, distingushing from laicism, where as man’s conscience has no restraints at all put on it (in fact it has many restraints put on it by God), but rather it is arguing, like Pius XI, against the state’s violation of the authentic liberties of individual consciences.
But Vatican II teaches that men who are in error, and are not following the truth, have a right to do so.

Vatican I: *"This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits. … The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself. This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right. … the right to this immunity continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it and the exercise of this right is not to be impeded.

continue*
 
continuation

Vatican II: "The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.(2) This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.

Compare that statement from Vatican II with the following from Pope Pius IX:

Pope Pius IX: “For you well know, venerable brethren, that at this time men are found not a few who, applying to civil society the impious and absurd principle of “naturalism,” as they call it, dare to teach that “the best constitution of public society and (also) civil progress altogether require that human society be conducted and governed without regard being had to religion any more than if it did not exist; or, at least, without any distinction being made between the true religion and false ones.” And, against the doctrine of Scripture, of the Church, and of the Holy Fathers, they do not hesitate to assert that “that is the best condition of civil society, in which no duty is recognized, as attached to the civil power, of restraining by enacted penalties, offenders against the Catholic religion, except so far as public peace may require.” From which totally false idea of social government they do not fear to foster that erroneous opinion, most fatal in its effects on the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls, called by Our Predecessor, Gregory XVI, an "insanity,"2 viz., that "liberty of conscience and worship is each man’s personal right, which ought to be legally proclaimed and asserted in every rightly constituted society; and that a right resides in the citizens to an absolute liberty, which should be restrained by no authority whether ecclesiastical or civil, whereby they may be able openly and publicly to manifest and declare any of their ideas whatever, either by word of mouth, by the press, or in any other way.” But, while they rashly affirm this, they do not think and consider that they are preaching "liberty of perdition;"3 and that "if human arguments are always allowed free room for discussion, there will never be wanting men who will dare to resist truth, and to trust in the flowing speech of human wisdom; whereas we know, from the very teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, how carefully Christian faith and wisdom should avoid this most injurious babbling
 
I dare say, it [Vatican II] is more easily read with the erroneous undestanding that with the proper one. If one already knows the catholic understanding he can read them (with some difficulty) in that light. But if one doesn’t know the catholic understanding and is looking for it - they can easily walk away from the more recent document with a misunderstading. I don’t think this was the case with pre-Vatican II stuff.

And where, aside from the traditional catholic “camp”, has the catholic understanding been clearly and explicitly taught?

Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
I agree with you 100%. If you already know the faith you can usually find a way to interpret the ambiguities of Vatican II in a way that corresponds to what the Church has always taught. But the surface meaning - what some of the documents seems to be saying - is certainly contrary to what the Church has always taught.

And this ambiguity in and of itself (which has led to so many contradictory interpretations) is one of the biggest problems of Vatican II and, in my opinion, the primary reason why there is so much confusion in the Church today.

No one, it seems, is able to “properly” interpret the Vatican II documents. Why is there such a problem in interpreting them? Because the council Fathers were split into two campes - Conservatives and Liberals - and the council documents thus show forth the contradiction between the two. Parts of the documnts are excellent (very Catholic), while other parts are very bad, and show “heretical tendencies”.
 
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