It only takes one rotten apple to sour the barrel

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Let me introduce the title of the thread to this philosophy forum.
Robert Heinlein was an early Twentieth Century home grown philosopher who wrote his views in Science Fiction novels. He’s a homegrown philosopher.
There’s hundreds of such people whose home grown philosophies have influenced and enlightened civilizations since the beginning of time.

So, I am introducing the philosophical precept in the title of this thread to this philosophy forum.

Let me give some examples of how this down home precept accurately describes the principle of one person endangering many to this forum.

I’ve played trumpet and sang in marching band, concert orchestra, A Capella Choir and church choirs. Anybody who loses step or hits a sour note can spoil the efforts of the entire band, orchestra or choir, to present an acceptable performance.

Like wise, I’ve been in a competition drill team and uniform precision can be ruined by one misstep. The entire team’s efforts for points can be ruined by one member’s misstep.

Speaking of teams, any sports team depends upon the performance of each of its members. Again, the whole team can suffer because of the poor performance of one member.

Likewise, a military unit is a team, regardless of its size. One soldier out of line in combat can bring death and destruction on his squad. That squad’s loss can bring death and destruction on its platoon. That platoon’s loss can bring death and destruction on its company…and on up the chain of units…Battallion, Regiment, Division, Brigade, Corps and Army.

Contrariwise, one member of any team maintain his/her part/position during a snafu can give the other team members a rallying point, around which to regain proficient performance and bring the whole band, choir, team of any kind, out of that confusion back to a solid performance of music, drill team, sports team or military combat.

Finally, this principle also applies to our civilians.
One unruly student can disrupt an entire class.
One belligerent citizen can start a riot.
One careless assembly line worker can ruin hundreds of what’s being produced in that factory.

And, the underlying statement of this entire post is that one person can bring grief on an entire organization of any size, by going against that choir’s, team’s, military unit’s, class or civilization’s common ground.
I’ve worded that poorly, but I hope you see my point.

Which is, yes, the entire group suffers from one member’s behavior.
I’m not saying this is good, bad, fair nor unfair. I’m saying, that’s the way it actually is and that’s not likely to change.
That’s what I want to discuss: that one person can endanger a whole organization is true.
 
I would say that the precept is inapplicable in this Catholic Forum. For, one of the main objectives in a Catholic forum is to share our faith with others and to evangelize. I would not be participating on this forum if it wasn’t practicing evangelization. I don’t want to participate in a forum that is JUST FOR FAITHFUL PIOUS CATHOLICS.

I find it fruitful, rewarding, enriching etc…to encounter stubborn, obstinate people who are seeking God. God loves each and everyone of them just as much as he loves me and you. To the contrary, they are our guests of honor.

I may personally get tired with one particular poster but, others will take over. Perhaps, it could be that I have offered all that I think I could to a particular person, etc… or that he/she needs time. We can plant a seed but it is God that makes it grow.

No, I like CAF and I would not want to see any stubborn atheists banned. If people break the established rules. fine, but, otherwise, no.

I am not better than an atheists. An atheists is searching God but his/her way and to quote myself ‘at the spiritual stage’ they are at…

The logic does not apply in an evangelization scenario, it is not a marching band. We are trying to stop people from,. as Saint Anthony Mary de Claret put it “marching straight to Hell” and help one another to find God and those who know him to continue to develop and nourshing their relationship and continue to grow in their faith.

Peace,

Abba
 
Richard Weaver wrote a whole book on this (Ideas Have Consequences). Or, as a good friend of mine puts it, “One moldy orange spoils the whole crate.” (Although Abba is totally right about CAF.) This little ditty (forwarded in an email) sums it up:

*For want of a nail the shoe was lost.

For want of a shoe the horse was lost.

For want of a horse the rider was lost.

For want of a rider the battle was lost.

For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.

And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.*

The same principle is illustrated in the nursery rhyme “The House That Jack Built” and in the song “There’s a Hole in the Bucket” (although, of course, the latter is also a nutshell example of the vicious circle of poverty).

Your post actually belongs in the greater “family” of the question: how to safeguard individual liberty (= avoiding Bed-Of-Procrustes conformity) while at the same time preserving the integrity (safety) of the whole (nation, community, etc.). From my own decades-long study of that prickly issue, it would seem that there’s no easy resolution to the conundrum. Even if one’s not a Leftist (enamored as they are with smashing the social order/traditions), one has to admit that Jesus Himself (and the Apostles!) “broke the mold” while He was on earth (or, if you’ll pardon the expression, He “upset the apple cart” :D).

That said, it seems to me that there is a difference between something like the uniformity required in a marching band (and even in a sports team, each player has to think ahead/take initiative) vs. a society in general: remember that lateral thinkers (non-conformists) are the salt of the earth, the ones who innovate and invent. Since God is the ultimate Thinker (repository of ideas) and He made us in His image, would it not stand to reason that totalitarian uniformity of thinking and doing goes against the way He designed us (individually as well as collectively)? A certain measure of Prometheanism keeps stagnation (= death) at bay. 😉
 
I would say that the precept is inapplicable in this Catholic Forum. For, one of the main objectives in a Catholic forum is to share our faith with others and to evangelize. I would not be participating on this forum if it wasn’t practicing evangelization. I don’t want to participate in a forum that is JUST FOR FAITHFUL PIOUS CATHOLICS.

I find it fruitful, rewarding, enriching etc…to encounter stubborn, obstinate people who are seeking God. God loves each and everyone of them just as much as he loves me and you. To the contrary, they are our guests of honor.

I may personally get tired with one particular poster but, others will take over. Perhaps, it could be that I have offered all that I think I could to a particular person, etc… or that he/she needs time. We can plant a seed but it is God that makes it grow.

No, I like CAF and I would not want to see any stubborn atheists banned. If people break the established rules. fine, but, otherwise, no.

I am not better than an atheists. An atheists is searching God but his/her way and to quote myself ‘at the spiritual stage’ they are at…

The logic does not apply in an evangelization scenario, it is not a marching band. We are trying to stop people from,. as Saint Anthony Mary de Claret put it “marching straight to Hell” and help one another to find God and those who know him to continue to develop and nourshing their relationship and continue to grow in their faith.

Peace,

Abba
Hi, Abba,

Thank you, for your response.

What you write is true, although I don’t see how it applies to my OP. I could understand if you mentioned that God loves Progressively too liberal scholars who twist the meanings of scripture in their modern translations.

I can see where you may disagree with that a deliberate misinterpretation of scripture and/or misbehavior spiritually endangers the community of believers.

I don’t understand why you brought atheists into my OP.

In evangelicalism, I follow Jesus’ example: tell the spiritual truth and those who are offended by it, it’s on their head. He turned away many disciples and listeners by his sayings. From this, I gather that we can’t save everybody. Some screen themselves right out of the Church by honestly turning away from hard sayings.

I am saying, that those of us on Jesus’ team who don’t do it Jesus’ way nor the Church’s way, are endangering the Church’s evangelicism.

I thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I hope my response is understandable to you.

God loves you and the atheists,
Don
I just wasn’t talking about atheists in this post.
 
dear donsrow, to whom are you referring in your original post? are you referring to any one person in particular (me?) or are you referring to any certain class of people in general? thank you.

whitecrayon
 
Richard Weaver wrote a whole book on this (Ideas Have Consequences). Or, as a good friend of mine puts it, “One moldy orange spoils the whole crate.” (Although Abba is totally right about CAF.) This little ditty (forwarded in an email) sums it up:

*For want of a nail the shoe was lost.

For want of a shoe the horse was lost.

For want of a horse the rider was lost.

For want of a rider the battle was lost.

For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.

And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.*

The same principle is illustrated in the nursery rhyme “The House That Jack Built” and in the song “There’s a Hole in the Bucket” (although, of course, the latter is also a nutshell example of the vicious circle of poverty).

Your post actually belongs in the greater “family” of the question: how to safeguard individual liberty (= avoiding Bed-Of-Procrustes conformity) while at the same time preserving the integrity (safety) of the whole (nation, community, etc.). From my own decades-long study of that prickly issue, it would seem that there’s no easy resolution to the conundrum. Even if one’s not a Leftist (enamored as they are with smashing the social order/traditions), one has to admit that Jesus Himself (and the Apostles!) “broke the mold” while He was on earth (or, if you’ll pardon the expression, He “upset the apple cart” :D).

That said, it seems to me that there is a difference between something like the uniformity required in a marching band (and even in a sports team, each player has to think ahead/take initiative) vs. a society in general: remember that lateral thinkers (non-conformists) are the salt of the earth, the ones who innovate and invent. Since God is the ultimate Thinker (repository of ideas) and He made us in His image, would it not stand to reason that totalitarian uniformity of thinking and doing goes against the way He designed us (individually as well as collectively)? A certain measure of Prometheanism keeps stagnation (= death) at bay. 😉
Hi, 1sicht,

I appreciate your post.

Yes, it’s a rough conundrum. However, in USMC 1961 boot camp, we were taught the principle of taking the initiative when our superior NCOs and/or Officers had been killed.
That’s why, recognizing that some of the Bishops and Scholars in the HRC have been corrupted, I then choose which Bishop or Scholar to follow…those in line with the Pope. So, there I am both following Dogma and Doctrine while exercising a little personal thinking.

Jesus and His Apostles were correcting Judaisms misuse of the Heavenly Father’s words by Hebrew scholars of the BC 1,000 era, who added their ideas of the Law to the Oral Tradition of Moses. So, He and His Apostles were not so much mold breakers, as reformers, imho.
And, as I mentioned to Abba in my previous response to his post, there were times recorded in the Gospels, when Jesus’ words turned away many of his lesser disciples and a lot of the crowd of listeners.
Our Lord Jesus Christ conformed Himself to His Heavenly Father and we are to conform our minds to the mind of Christ, not to passing fads of thought.

God loves you,
Don
 
dear donsrow, to whom are you referring in your original post? are you referring to any one person in particular (me?) or are you referring to any certain class of people in general? thank you.

whitecrayon
Dear whitecrayon,

Thank you for that clarifying question.

I think my OP centers on an attitude of irresponsible words and thought, employed by many people throughout all walks of life. That attitude being, it doesn’t matter if we aren’t careful in speech and thought. Because, imho, that attitude is the cause of people becoming careless about their faith, or their work, or their choices.

Did that clarify it, for you?
The short answer to your question would be, anybody that that shoe fits.

God loves you,
Don
 
Dear whitecrayon,

I think my OP centers on an attitude of irresponsible words and thought, employed by many people throughout all walks of life. That attitude being, it doesn’t matter if we aren’t careful in speech and thought. Because, imho, that attitude is the cause of people becoming careless about their faith, or their work, or their choices.

God loves you,
Don
Being imperfect humans, we all have been irresponsible and careless in our attitude, thought, words and actions at one point or another, and more than once to a greater or lesser degree. We fail to properly understand God’s LOVE for us and our constant need to ALLOW God into our lives. We sin.

But, I think, that most of us,who are trying to allow God in our lives more fully, BATTLE against being irresponsible and careless. And we battle against being turned away from God by others who would bring us down. Still we are tempted and must always try to not give in to bad thoughts, actions, attitudes, etc. Confession and frequent receinving of Holy Communion are our strongest armour.

Part of our purpose in this life is to get to know God better each day. AND to be able to explain why we believe in Jesus Christ to any who may ask us: Our children, family, friends, acquaintances, bloggers, etc. We do encounter those who have not progressed to our level of understanding. They may be sincerely searching or arrogantly angry. Patience, persistence, and PRAYER are our tools.

Working on allowing God more into our lives is a key I think.

*Come, O Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and enkindle in them the fire of your love. Send forth your Spirit, and they shall be created. And you shall renew the face of the earth. *
*Let us pray. *
*O God, who has taught the hearts of the faithful by the light of the Holy Spirit, grant that by the gift of the same Spirit we may be always truly wise and ever rejoice in his consolation, through Christ our Lord. Amen. *

A short version we should say frequently each day, especially before we talk, is

JESUS, I TRUST IN YOU.
 
I would say that the precept is inapplicable in this Catholic Forum. For, one of the main objectives in a Catholic forum is to share our faith with others and to evangelize. I would not be participating on this forum if it wasn’t practicing evangelization. I don’t want to participate in a forum that is JUST FOR FAITHFUL PIOUS CATHOLICS.

I find it fruitful, rewarding, enriching etc…to encounter stubborn, obstinate people who are seeking God. God loves each and everyone of them just as much as he loves me and you. To the contrary, they are our guests of honor.

I may personally get tired with one particular poster but, others will take over. Perhaps, it could be that I have offered all that I think I could to a particular person, etc… or that he/she needs time. We can plant a seed but it is God that makes it grow.

No, I like CAF and I would not want to see any stubborn atheists banned. If people break the established rules. fine, but, otherwise, no.

I am not better than an atheists. An atheists is searching God but his/her way and to quote myself ‘at the spiritual stage’ they are at…

The logic does not apply in an evangelization scenario, it is not a marching band. We are trying to stop people from,. as Saint Anthony Mary de Claret put it “marching straight to Hell” and help one another to find God and those who know him to continue to develop and nourshing their relationship and continue to grow in their faith.

Peace,

Abba
I didn’t take it that the OP was referring to atheists at the forum, as a matter of fact the first thing I thought of is how just a few evil priests brought shame on ALL the clergy, it’s not fair but it seems how the world works, a few rotten apples spoil the whole bunch
 
It is inevitable there are differences in opinion on a philosophy forum. God expects unity, not uniformity. There would have been no development of doctrine if there had been no discussion of the issues at stake. There is scope for a wide divergence of views within the Faith. Some may find this unsettling but it is a sign that the Church is not fossilized but progressing in the light of scientific discoveries and social changes - of which a recent statement by the Pope is an example.
 
Being imperfect humans, we all have been irresponsible and careless in our attitude, thought, words and actions at one point or another, and more than once to a greater or lesser degree. We fail to properly understand God’s LOVE for us and our constant need to ALLOW God into our lives. We sin.

But, I think, that most of us,who are trying to allow God in our lives more fully, BATTLE against being irresponsible and careless. And we battle against being turned away from God by others who would bring us down. Still we are tempted and must always try to not give in to bad thoughts, actions, attitudes, etc. Confession and frequent receinving of Holy Communion are our strongest armour.

Part of our purpose in this life is to get to know God better each day. AND to be able to explain why we believe in Jesus Christ to any who may ask us: Our children, family, friends, acquaintances, bloggers, etc. We do encounter those who have not progressed to our level of understanding. They may be sincerely searching or arrogantly angry. Patience, persistence, and PRAYER are our tools.

Working on allowing God more into our lives is a key I think.

*Come, O Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and enkindle in them the fire of your love. Send forth your Spirit, and they shall be created. And you shall renew the face of the earth. *
*Let us pray. *
*O God, who has taught the hearts of the faithful by the light of the Holy Spirit, grant that by the gift of the same Spirit we may be always truly wise and ever rejoice in his consolation, through Christ our Lord. Amen. *

A short version we should say frequently each day, especially before we talk, is

JESUS, I TRUST IN YOU.
Yes, GratefulFred,

Your post is right in line with the thrust of my OP.
Thank you.

The OP, that one person can endanger an entire organization includes with carelessness as well as malice as well as misplaced good intentions (such as the 2008 - 2010 Administration of the USof A; however, thank God, American citizenry has rose up and put politicians in Congress to correct the misplaced good intentions of the Marxists, which Marxists fail or refuse to see that Marxism has already failed all over this planet and will pull America down, too.)
God loves you,
Don
 
I didn’t take it that the OP was referring to atheists at the forum, as a matter of fact the first thing I thought of is how just a few evil priests brought shame on ALL the clergy, it’s not fair but it seems how the world works, a few rotten apples spoil the whole bunch
Thanks, ronnie bonigli,

That sums that up nicely.

Yes, a person with a bad attitude or another person with evil behavior can give a different whole classes of people a bad reputation. If not spoiled, the whole barrel is at least soiled by one person. Or, one type of person whether careless, evil, malicious or well intended.

God loves you,
Don
 
It is inevitable there are differences in opinion on a philosophy forum. God expects unity, not uniformity. There would have been no development of doctrine if there had been no discussion of the issues at stake. There is scope for a wide divergence of views within the Faith. Some may find this unsettling but it is a sign that the Church is not fossilized but progressing in the light of scientific discoveries and social changes - of which a recent statement by the Pope is an example.
Hi, tonyrey!

Good to see your post. I enjoy your writings.

Well, yes, my OP is only an opinion; although it’s an opinion shared by many people of all educational levels throughout the years. I have adopted it for one of my opinions. And, I stand by it.

God loves you,
Don
 
Hi, tonyrey!

Good to see your post. I enjoy your writings.

Well, yes, my OP is only an opinion; although it’s an opinion shared by many people of all educational levels throughout the years. I have adopted it for one of my opinions. And, I stand by it.

God loves you,
Don
Thanks for your kind remark, Don. It’s always refreshing to have an opinion from outside the arena! It’s an occupational hazard for philosophers to live in an ivory tower and ignore the effect of our discussions on others but we have to appeal to reason rather than faith.

We all have our part to play. 🙂
 
Don, you mentioned Marxists and the last two years of American government.

I recommend “Destructive Generation” by Peter Collier and David Horowitz. They were involved. The history they write is very powerful. The war of “how shall we govern ourselves” continues today, just in a different form from the 60s and before. Simply possessing “sound bite” history - paltitudes - is not enough. A closer examination of what has gone on, even just since World War II helps us judge what is going on in our current time.

We do have to guard against being carelessly seduced by irresponsible godless men and women who have the ability to make their ideas sound so sweet. We must guard against trusting too much and supporting ideas we have NOT challenged for true worth as we continue to vote our elected officials every two years at the federal, state and local levels. Because change can be either better or worse or not much different, we should not blindly presume that any change is better. The devil is in the details.

We have an obligation to our own integrity to learn the details and not just be a parrot parading behind a polished pied piper in either political party.

Between God and Man I am so very glad I have sided with God, the God made known to us in the Bible and by Jesus Christ, the Living Son of God and the Church Christ established. Praying for greater WISDOM - better knowledge and better judgment - is essential. Otherwise we become careless and irresponsible.

We have the ability to remove rotten apples from the barrel if we chose to seek God’s WISDOM and vote accordingly.
 
Thanks for your kind remark, Don. It’s always refreshing to have an opinion from outside the arena! It’s an occupational hazard for philosophers to live in an ivory tower and ignore the effect of our discussions on others but we have to appeal to reason rather than faith.

We all have our part to play. 🙂
Hi, tonyrey,

Yes and our Church teaches, truthfully, that reason and faith are compatible. We see little of that in today’s education system.

Thank you for recognizing my little part to play.

God loves you,
Don
 
Hi, tonyrey,

Yes and our Church teaches, truthfully, that reason and faith are compatible. We see little of that in today’s education system.

Thank you for recognizing my little part to play.
Hi Don, I don’t know if you’re referring to the US Catholic education system. In most schools in the UK faith is conspicuous by its absence… 😦

You underestimate your impact. 🙂
 
Don, you mentioned Marxists and the last two years of American government.

I recommend “Destructive Generation” by Peter Collier and David Horowitz. They were involved. The history they write is very powerful. The war of “how shall we govern ourselves” continues today, just in a different form from the 60s and before. Simply possessing “sound bite” history - paltitudes - is not enough. A closer examination of what has gone on, even just since World War II helps us judge what is going on in our current time.

We do have to guard against being carelessly seduced by irresponsible godless men and women who have the ability to make their ideas sound so sweet. We must guard against trusting too much and supporting ideas we have NOT challenged for true worth as we continue to vote our elected officials every two years at the federal, state and local levels. Because change can be either better or worse or not much different, we should not blindly presume that any change is better. The devil is in the details.

We have an obligation to our own integrity to learn the details and not just be a parrot parading behind a polished pied piper in either political party.

Between God and Man I am so very glad I have sided with God, the God made known to us in the Bible and by Jesus Christ, the Living Son of God and the Church Christ established. Praying for greater WISDOM - better knowledge and better judgment - is essential. Otherwise we become careless and irresponsible.

We have the ability to remove rotten apples from the barrel if we chose to seek God’s WISDOM and vote accordingly.
Oh, GratefulFred,

I don’t know how I missed your post yesterday. I’m glad I saw it today.

You have hit the nail on the head, with your political observation. Thank you for naming your source, and I have now another book to add to my wish list.

God loves you and yours,
Don
 
Hi Don, I don’t know if you’re referring to the US Catholic education system. In most schools in the UK faith is conspicuous by its absence… 😦

You underestimate your impact. 🙂
Hi, tonyrey,

Actually, I had the U.S.ofA. public school system and colleges in mind. I would like to think that our Parish schools and Catholic universities and colleges do have faith and reason in good partnership.

I am sad that the great English education system no longer gives faith the credit it deserves in education. Nor in other parts of life. That’s not sarcasm.

God loves you,
Don
 
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