It seems that many protestant churches do not cover.........

[Salusa]

When you say you are in the body, I am not saying you are an unbeliever. I am asking you do you accept the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist? I was under the impression that the Roman Catholic views on this is the only one that has this view.

Is that true? Or do other Orthodox faiths accept the literal presence?

Hello,

I accept the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I don’t believe in Roman Catholic dogma or Transubstantiation though.

Transubstantiation is a way to explain the true presence, but not the end all. Many other churches believe in the true presence but not Transubstantiation.

Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Apostolic, and some Anglicans all believe the true presence.

 

[SaintFrancis333]

I think this thread is missing the point entirely. The Church covers Scriptures enough to convey Christ’s message of Salvation. That is all that matters. Scriptures are the word of God but even then, it is not the full story. Not by a LONG shot. The Catholic Church is Christ’s legacy in the world, not the Bible. The Bible was created by the Catholic Church, for the Catholic Church, with the purpose of coinciding with our Sacred Traditions (big T). The Church is the important bit, not the Bible. The Bible, ultimately, is nothing more than a book. A holy book of course, but a book nonetheless. Salvation comes from Christ, who resides within the Church. Who cares who hears what percentage of the Bible? If you aren’t receiving the Sacraments and receiving Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, then you have no life in you anyways. Reading the Bible doesn’t save anyone. Obeying Christ’s will and joining Him in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church does.

 

[SaintFrancis333]

Hello,

I accept the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I don’t believe in Roman Catholic dogma or Transubstantiation though.

Transubstantiation is a way to explain the true presence, but not the end all. Many other churches believe in the true presence but not Transubstantiation.

Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Apostolic, and some Anglicans all believe the true presence.

100% of lutherans and 99% of anglicans do not have the true presence in the Eucharist. They might believe in the true presence, but it does not make it so. Protestant “ministers” are self ordained and do not have the ordination necessary to act In Persona Christi, to consecrate the host. At the end, all they have is make believe. I don’t say that to be rude to our lutheran and anglican brothers and sisters, but it “is” the truth. I just wanted to point that out since you don’t make distinction between man made groups and groups that have valid Apostolic Succession (besides being in schism)

 

[bsroufek]

100% of lutherans and 99% of anglicans do not have the true presence in the Eucharist. They might believe in the true presence, but it does not make it so. Protestant “ministers” are self ordained and do not have the ordination necessary to act In Persona Christi, to consecrate the host.

Vatican II teaches us that the Protestants have “some Communion” with us. They don’t have valid ordinations in Apostolic Succession, I guess, but these two statements leave open the
question of whether or not their Eucharistic celebrations are valid or not.

I haven’t heard Church teaching on valid Eucharist presence for Protestant christians.

 

[Classicist]

To be fair, the Catholic Church did not cover the entire Bible until its new Lectionary came out, following Vatican II. The Mass had a set of readings for every day of a given liturgical year. They did not vary. The Lutherans & Anglicans actually kept many of the same readings after the Reformation. Look at the Scriptural references in each of Bach’s cantatas for every Sunday of the year, and you will see that they match the Tridentine Mass and its lectionary.

The three-year ABC lectionary is an invention of the ecumenical dialogues since Vatican II. Years A, B, and C were agreed upon by Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, and others. The Common Lectionary was the result.

 

[triumphguy]

So, every 3 years or so, I am seeing that we get

71.5 of the NT

13.5 of the OT

That is what I am gathering anyway.

These are the figures Tarboy gave you earlier.

 

[tarboy]

Yes, I agree 110% that the daily readings are superb

I also agree with another poster that the amount of the bible that is covered, gives essential teachings.

But I must continue to refute anybody that claims we read all the bible in Mass, be it over 3 or 30yrs. ** It is untrue and makes Catholics look ignorant in front of Protestants**.

You did come across arrogant. You do need to tell me to “read a sincere response” before replying.

When I said in my original post that the bible is covered approximately every 3 years or so, is not really the underlining point.

Not even close to the point. It was a basic claim. The more important point is we get a reading each day, over a specific time period (whether it be 3 years or maybe 5 years) the entire bible is covered.

Again, it is about getting daily readings, and those readings relating to one another.

You want to get all caught up in my claim of 3 years, feel free. With the legalistic statistical analysis and then obfuscating from the more important point.

Also, my response to your post was me asking a polite question.

***True enough. However, from what I have read, the entire bible is covered around every 3 years or so. ***

Is that true?

I said from what I have heard the bible is covered every 3 years, and I asked if that was true.

 

[Kirovsakya]

Yeah, when I say MANY protestant churches, I am not saying ALL protestant churches.

I find that many of the “super churches Evangelical” do not have a set doctrine to cover the whole bible. It seems that there is a conscious effort to avoid the entire bible. I know most of them do not do that consciously, but it does seem that way.

Also, many do not really relate the gospel reading with readings in the OT or the letters in the NT etc.

Are you Greek Orthodox? I find the Greek Orthodox views on icons are interesting.

Also, isn’t it Easter today for you? Happy Easter if so.

Thanks. I’m actually American by birth and a cradle Roman Catholic. After a year as an inquirer and another as a catechumen, I was received into Holy Orthodoxy yesterday, Holy Saturday, 2013. And yes, today is Great and Holy Pascha, the Feast of the Resurrection.

The Orthodox view on icons is consistent with the cannons of the Seventh Ecumenical Council and the writings of our venerable and God-bearing Father, St. John of Damascus (c. 676 - 749). He was born and raised in Damascus, in all probability at the Monastery of Saint Sabbas (Mar Saba), South East of Jerusalem. His feast day in the Orthodox Church is December 4. He is also recognized as a saint in the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[tarboy]

I don’t know if you have read the OT, but it is full of long geneologies and lists which contribute nothing to spiritual learning (even St. Paul talked about “endless geneologies”),
so what I’m saying is that the Bible is read in its ESSENTIAL entirety, minus some details which are impossible to remember anyway.

The Bible is covered in 3 years on Sundays, 1 year on Daily attendance.

bsroufek,
Saying the Mass covers the bible essentials every three years is very different than saying it covers the whole bible, don’t just dismiss the difference in meaning and say ‘you wouldn’t remember it anyway’ It’s dishonest and plays to the Protestant argument.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

bsroufek,
Saying the Mass covers the bible essentials every three years is very different than saying it covers the whole bible, don’t just dismiss the difference in meaning and say ‘you wouldn’t remember it anyway’ It’s dishonest and plays to the Protestant argument.

Look, I read the information from this source.

usccb.org/bible/liturgy/

How is the Lectionary arranged?
The Lectionary is arranged in two cycles, one for Sundays and one for weekdays.

The Sunday cycle is divided into three years, labeled A, B, and C. 2008 was Year A. 2009 was Year B, 2010 is Year C, etc. In Year A, we read mostly from the Gospel of Matthew. In Year B, we read the Gospel of Mark and chapter 6 of the Gospel of John. In Year C, we read the Gospel of Luke. The Gospel of John is read during the Easter season in all three years. The first reading, usually from the Old Testament, reflects important themes from the Gospel reading. The second reading is usually from one of the epistles, a letter written to an early church community. These letters are read semi-continuously. Each Sunday, we pick up close to where we left off the Sunday before, though some passages are never read.

The weekday cycle is divided into two years, Year I and Year II. Year I is read in odd-numbered years (2009, 2011, etc.) and Year II is used in even-numbered years (2010, 2012, etc.) The Gospels for both years are the same. During the year, the Gospels are read semi-continuously, beginning with Mark, then moving on to Matthew and Luke. The Gospel of John is read during the Easter season. For Advent, Christmas, and Lent, readings are chosen that are appropriate to the season. The first reading on weekdays may be taken from the Old or the New Testament. Typically, a single book is read semi-continuously (i.e., some passages are not read) until it is finished and then a new book is started.

The year of the cycle does not change on January 1, but on the First Sunday of Advent (usually late November) which is the beginning of the liturgical year.

In addition to the Sunday and weekday cycles, the Lectionary provides readings for feasts of the saints, for common celebrations such as Marian feasts, for ritual Masses (weddings, funerals, etc.), for votive Masses, and for various needs. These readings have been selected to reflect the themes of these celebrations.

When I said the Catholic Church COVERS THE ENTIRE BIBLE I was wrong. Not from saying it covers the essentials of the faith, but that it covers the ENTIRE BIBLE.

There is a reason for the manner in which it is covered, and yes the essentials are indeed covered every 3 years or so. Not the entire last letter of every book of the 73 books.

Have I now satisfied your focus on my mistake of saying the ENTIRE bible now?

Covering the essentials, through the 3 year cycle is more than MANY protestant churches do. Which I find curious, since I tend to see many accusations that Catholics do not read the bible or live the according to scripture.

I find that many protestant churches jump around and few them are truly united in any sort of organized doctrine.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

These are the figures Tarboy gave you earlier.

Yeah, I know that. We have it figured out. The ENTIRE bible is not covered every 3 years.

However, it seems the essentials are covered every 3 years.

Thanks.

 

[Cat]

Fellow Catholis, I would not assume that Protestants, especially Evangelical Protestants, have not studied the entire Bible. That would be a tactical error on your part that will eventually get you into trouble during a conversation with a Protestant.

I grew up Evangelical Protestant (Conference Baptist).

By the time I was 18, I had read the entire Bible (Protestant version, minus the Deuterocanonical books) through several times, and by the time I became Catholic, I had not only read the entire Bible dozens of times, but I had studied every book in either a private Bible study (on my own, using a text book), or in a group Bible study.

I even studied the books of the Minor Prophets.

Evangelical Protestant denominations, as well as many other types of Protestant churches, strongly encourage their Christians to READ THE BIBLE everyday, and they provide the opportunities and tools to accomplish this.

Most Evangelical Protestants strive to have a daily “Quiet Time,” or “Morning Watch” or “Daily Devotions,” during which they read the Bible, study it, often memorize it, and pray about it.

Most Evangelical Protestants also attend at least one, and often several Bible studies.

And many Evangelical Protestants get involved in a teaching ministry in which they learn even more Bible. They may not be the “teacher,” but they are involved in the ministry in some way that exposes them to Bible teaching.

In addition, Evangelical Protestants are strongly encouraged to read the entire Bible through. Many Evangelical Protestants read the Bible through over and over again, and they will show you their well-used and tattered paper "guide that they use to know which Books and Chapters they are supposed to read on any given day. Some read the Bible through chronologically, and others read it in the order in which it is printed.

It’s not true that Protestants ignore or give less importance to the Old Testament. Think about it–when you start reading the Bible, you start with Genesis 1:1–“In the beginning…” That’s Old Testament. Most Protestants understand the need to have a good understanding of the Old Testament because that’s where Jesus came from–the Jews. And many Protestants love the Psalms and Proverbs.

As for whether reading the entire Bible is “church policy” or not–probably not, at least in Evangelical Protestant churches.

Many of the mainline denominations follow the same schedule of reading that Catholics follow; I know that the Methodists do. But not Evangelical Protestants. Many of their worship services are “topical” or “needs-based.” The pastor may do a series of sermons about “marriage” or “raising children” or “how to overcome addictions.” The Bible is used in the sermons, but the sermon is about the topic, not about the Bible.

But even if it’s not official church policy, remember that Evangelical Protestant churches give their people a plethora of opportunities to study the ENTIRE Bible–notice I said “study.” To me, although it’s admirable that the Catholic Church reads the entire Bible (or close enough) in the Mass over a period of three years, I’m not convinced that most Catholics “STUDY” those readings outside of the Mass (I’ll admit, I don’t). I’m not even convinced that all the Catholics sitting in the Mass even LISTEN to the readings with a focused mind.

Also, in the not-too-distant past, some of the Evangelical Protestant denominations DID get their members through the entire Bible. It happened in Sunday school. When I was in 2nd grade, I started attending Sunday school (my mother kept us home from church and taught us at home until we arrived at the Age of Accountability). We received a Sunday School book that started in the Book of Genesis. (Apparently the 1st graders were considered too young for this kind of “book work.”)

Every quarter, we finished with our book and got a new book. Each book covered a book or two (or more) of the Bible. By the time we were in 8th grade, we had covered the ENTIRE OLD Testament, in great detail. We had to bring our books home and do the lessons (which meant reading the Bible chapters) and bring them back, and we also had to memorize various portions of Scripture.

Interestingly, I was in the last class (H.S. Class of 1975) that did Sunday School this way. After I finished 8th grade, the Conference Baptists changed the way they did children’s Sunday School, and started producing Sunday school books that were “modern” and “relevant” and “topic-based.” The children started learning about “love” and “peace” and “Jesus, our Friend.”

So you see, fellow Catholics, the Protestants went through a “Vatican II” of their own! I personally think that this type of Sunday school was a disaster, as it produced a generation of people who knew very little of the Bible unless they studied it on their own. But it sure did attract a lot of people to the Evangelical churches, because the children weren’t bored in Sunday school like they were in those old “stodgy” churches that were still using workbooks and listening to lectures instead of “rapping together.”

Anyway, my point is, do not make assumptions about Protestants when it comes to the Bible.

 

[Symphorian]

To be fair, the Catholic Church did not cover the entire Bible until its new Lectionary came out, following Vatican II. The Mass had a set of readings for every day of a given liturgical year. They did not vary. The Lutherans & Anglicans actually kept many of the same readings after the Reformation. Look at the Scriptural references in each of Bach’s cantatas for every Sunday of the year, and you will see that they match the Tridentine Mass and its lectionary.

The three-year ABC lectionary is an invention of the ecumenical dialogues since Vatican II. Years A, B, and C were agreed upon by Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, and others. The Common Lectionary was the result.

Yes. The Church of England’s Book of Common Prayer retained the pre-Reformation Sunday Epistle and Gospel readings. These largely follow the pattern of Sunday readings from the Sarum Use.

When ++Cranmer compiled the first Book of Common Prayer in 1549 he desired a more systematic reading of Scripture for the Daily Offices of Morning and Evening Prayer rather than the short and often interupted readings from the Sarum Breviary. Consequently, most of the OT is read through once per year with most of the NT being read through twice per year. The Deuterocanon was included. The Psalms are sung/read through in their entirety once per month. Whilst over the years the CofE Lectionary has been amended this is still generally the case.

The three year ABC Lectionary is widely used in the CofE and our Daily Eucharistic Lectionary is derived from the Catholic Ordo Lectionum Missae.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

Fellow Catholis, I would not assume that Protestants, especially Evangelical Protestants, have not studied the entire Bible. That would be a tactical error on your part that will eventually get you into trouble during a conversation with a Protestant.

I grew up Evangelical Protestant (Conference Baptist).

By the time I was 18, I had read the entire Bible (Protestant version, minus the Deuterocanonical books) through several times, and by the time I became Catholic, I had not only read the entire Bible dozens of times, but I had studied every book in either a private Bible study (on my own, using a text book), or in a group Bible study.

I even studied the books of the Minor Prophets.

Evangelical Protestant denominations, as well as many other types of Protestant churches, strongly encourage their Christians to READ THE BIBLE everyday, and they provide the opportunities and tools to accomplish this.

Most Evangelical Protestants strive to have a daily “Quiet Time,” or “Morning Watch” or “Daily Devotions,” during which they read the Bible, study it, often memorize it, and pray about it.

Most Evangelical Protestants also attend at least one, and often several Bible studies.

And many Evangelical Protestants get involved in a teaching ministry in which they learn even more Bible. They may not be the “teacher,” but they are involved in the ministry in some way that exposes them to Bible teaching.

In addition, Evangelical Protestants are strongly encouraged to read the entire Bible through. Many Evangelical Protestants read the Bible through over and over again, and they will show you their well-used and tattered paper "guide that they use to know which Books and Chapters they are supposed to read on any given day. Some read the Bible through chronologically, and others read it in the order in which it is printed.

It’s not true that Protestants ignore or give less importance to the Old Testament. Think about it–when you start reading the Bible, you start with Genesis 1:1–“In the beginning…” That’s Old Testament. Most Protestants understand the need to have a good understanding of the Old Testament because that’s where Jesus came from–the Jews. And many Protestants love the Psalms and Proverbs.

As for whether reading the entire Bible is “church policy” or not–probably not, at least in Evangelical Protestant churches.

Many of the mainline denominations follow the same schedule of reading that Catholics follow; I know that the Methodists do. But not Evangelical Protestants. Many of their worship services are “topical” or “needs-based.” The pastor may do a series of sermons about “marriage” or “raising children” or “how to overcome addictions.” The Bible is used in the sermons, but the sermon is about the topic, not about the Bible.

But even if it’s not official church policy, remember that Evangelical Protestant churches give their people a plethora of opportunities to study the ENTIRE Bible–notice I said “study.” To me, although it’s admirable that the Catholic Church reads the entire Bible (or close enough) in the Mass over a period of three years, I’m not convinced that most Catholics “STUDY” those readings outside of the Mass (I’ll admit, I don’t). I’m not even convinced that all the Catholics sitting in the Mass even LISTEN to the readings with a focused mind.

Anyway, my point is, do not make assumptions about Protestants when it comes to the Bible.

In my personal experiences, I have found that many protestants know the same hot points, but not others. It almost seems universal. There is a reason why I said MANY and not MOST.

For example. I once had a discussion with someone I worked with. He was an actual youth minister at his church. We would get into discussions at work. He would literally thump the bible at me.

Anyway, one I day I quoted the bible where Jesus is referred to as the “Son of man.” He right away said that is a Catholic teaching, and how can Catholics actually consider themselves Christians. He thought it was blasphemy to say SON OF MAN, since Christ is the SON OF GOD. He had no idea that the Son of man was even used in the bible. He had no clue.

Then when he wanted know where Jesus said we must eat his body and drink his blood. I referred to the entire John ch 6. He mentioned he never read it, so it must not be that important.

I am not exaggerating that. However, this person would know a lot of other places where different things were written. However, he did not know, or ever heard of some of the most essential aspects of the bible.

I use him as an example, but many times I have had discussions and I get very similar responses. Like with Mary. Many of them have no clue that Jesus said, “Behold your mother” from the cross.

I just had a discussion with someone this morning, which prompted the question. He is another person that is a minister at his church. He had no idea that saints and angels are mentioned in revelation making prayers in the form of incense. Rev 5:8

I just harkened back to all of these similar conversations, and I really wondered why they have not heard of these pretty basic things. I am not talking about someone that never goes to church, but people that are rather devout.

These are the reasons I was wondering about it. So, I looked up what parts the Catholic Church covers. So I read the cycle as put out the American Bishops. Now, me saying ENTIRE bible seemed to rankle people.

I guess I misinterpreted where it said they put gospels and NT on a 3 year cycle.