It seems to me that sex is peculiar among God's gifts

[Binary]

in that for many people, the thing we can do with it that is most pleasing to God is… absolutely nothing. Are there other gifts we have that are similar in that respect? Is there anything to be learned from viewing sex from this perspective? Is my observation wrong?

 

[funion987]

I don’t get it. Is creating new life not liked by God?

 

[JacquesMaritain]

in that for many people, the thing we can do with it that is most pleasing to God is… absolutely nothing. Are there other gifts we have that are similar in that respect? Is there anything to be learned from viewing sex from this perspective? Is my observation wrong?

Hi Binary:

Maybe it is a matter of perspective. The gift that is being given by the (absence) of sex is, presumably, the gift of chastity (abstinence or celibacy or chastity is the positive thing being given, not the no-thing of refraining from a carnal act). Is there another gift like this, whose best expression consists in pleasing God by doing nothing? Well, again it depends what no-thing is. You could argue that peace is the absence of war, say…so when two countries are in conflict/war but then step back, and do nothing instead (their soldiers don’t fight), then they are engaged in a positive thing, practicing Peace. Their leaders please God the most by the least amount of conflict that they do; in the ideal case, they please God by doing nothing. See what I’m getting at? Find the act, see if its opposite consists of not doing the act (that’s not always obvious), and go from there. We would be approaching life from the point of view of the Seven Virtues, say, as opposed to the Seven Sins. As another example, consider patience. When we are tempted to argue/nag/scold someone who is irritating us, and we practice Patience, we refrain from activity, and do no-thing.

Jacques

 

[Binary]

Hi Binary:

Maybe it is a matter of perspective. The gift that is being given by the (absence) of sex is, presumably, the gift of chastity (abstinence or celibacy or chastity is the positive thing being given, not the no-thing of refraining from a carnal act). Is there another gift like this, whose best expression consists in pleasing God by doing nothing? Well, again it depends what no-thing is. You could argue that peace is the absence of war, say…so when two countries are in conflict/war but then step back, and do nothing instead (their soldiers don’t fight), then they are engaged in a positive thing, practicing Peace. Their leaders please God the most by the least amount of conflict that they do; in the ideal case, they please God by doing nothing. See what I’m getting at? Find the act, see if its opposite consist of not doing the act (that’s not always obvious), and go from there. We would be approaching life from the point of view of the Seven Virtues, say, as opposed to the Seven Sins. As another example, consider patience. When we are tempted to argue/nag/scold someone who is irritating us, and we practice Patience, we refrain from activity, and do no-thing.

Jacques

Jacques, I think I would benefit greatly by perceiving chastity as a positive (i.e. extant) thing. I’ll do my best to understand. With respect, I think your examples of peace and patience are not analogous. By our nature we have a fundamental sexual faculty. It’s in our natural desires, it’s written in our anatomy. The same cannot be said for making war or scolding. I would categorize these as illicit (except in cases of just war) uses of our natural mental and physical faculties. There are lots of licit uses for these same faculties, rather than merely abstaining from abusing them. The same cannot be said for our sexual faculty.

 

[Vico]

in that for many people, the thing we can do with it that is most pleasing to God is… absolutely nothing. Are there other gifts we have that are similar in that respect? Is there anything to be learned from viewing sex from this perspective? Is my observation wrong?

It it not nothing to exercise self restraint. For example in The Enchiridion Of Indulgences the third general grant is a partial indulgence granted to the faithful, who in a spirit of penance voluntarily deprive themselves of what is licit and pleasing to them.

This third grant is intended to move the faithful to bridle their passions and thus learn to bring their bodies into subjection and to conform themselves to Christ in his poverty and suffering.

From The Enchiridion Of Indulgences:

But self-denial will be more precious, if it is united to charity, according to the teaching of St. Leo the Great:

“Let us give to virtue what we refuse to self-indulgence. Let what we deny ourselves by fast – be the refreshment of the poor.” [Sermon 13, *On the Fast of the Tenth Month, 2: PL 54, 172.]

*Lk 9, 23: *If anyone wishes to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. [See *Mt 10, 30 and *Lk *14, 27.]

*Lk 13, 5: *Unless you repent, you will all perish in the same manner (see 13, 3).

*Rom 8, 13: *But if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live.

*Rom 8, 17: *Provided, however, we suffer with him that we may also be glorified with him.

*1 Cor 9, 25-27: *And everyone in a contest abstains from all things, and they indeed to receive a perishable crown, but we an imperishable. I, therefore, so run as not without a purpose; I so fight as not beating the air; but I chastise my body and bring it into subjection.

*2 Cor 4, 10: *Always bearing about in our body the dying of Jesus, so that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our bodily frame.

 

[GEddie]

The use of the sexual function is positive indeed, WHEN USED WITHIN MARRIAGE.

You see, it was designed for the sacred purpose of generating new human life, something no other process can. As such, it is to be reserved for married couples, because this arrangement is the most suitable for the procreation of children. Within this situation, the more it is used, the better.

But it is indeed sacred. It is not to be used recreationally or in casual relationships, because such are not suitable for children to be born. By refraining from employing this function in those situations, the inherent sacredness of it is upheld, and that is pleasing to God.

God bless and ICXC NIKA.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

in that for many people, the thing we can do with it that is most pleasing to God is… absolutely nothing. Are there other gifts we have that are similar in that respect? Is there anything to be learned from viewing sex from this perspective? Is my observation wrong?

I hope you’re not married! If so, I feel real bad for the person you’re married to if you think God wants you to do nothing.

Like sex, anything God gives us that’s used apart from the way God intends will do us harm but used according to God’s plan will bring happiness.

Even for those people who aren’t married and unable, or not yet able, to engage in sexual intercourse, our sexuality is a great gift. It affects who we are and how we relate to other people and the world around us. It is a major part of our identity.

Originally (with Adam and Eve) the use of sex was under the control of our intellect and will. We would have enjoyed great sex when the time was right and wouldn’t have been troubled by temptation at other times. Then along came Satan.

The situation with sex isn’t unique. Don’t you want to eat when you don’t really need food and you need to lose several pounds but that cake looks sooo good? Yes, food is good but not all food is good for all persons at all times. Food is for nourishing the body and the expected result is health and strength to do the work we need to do.

Sex is good but not all kinds of sex for everybody whenever they feel like it. Sex is for expressing love between married people and the expected result, sooner or later, is a new person to love.

The main thing wrong with thinking about sex from the perspective you give is that it can result in dissatisfaction, ingratitude, and anger at God.

 

[revert_jen]

Jacques, I think I would benefit greatly by perceiving chastity as a positive (i.e. extant) thing. I’ll do my best to understand. With respect, I think your examples of peace and patience are not analogous. By our nature we have a fundamental sexual faculty. It’s in our natural desires, it’s written in our anatomy. The same cannot be said for making war or scolding. I would categorize these as illicit (except in cases of just war) uses of our natural mental and physical faculties. There are lots of licit uses for these same faculties, rather than merely abstaining from abusing them. The same cannot be said for our sexual faculty.

You seem to be saying that there are lots of licit uses for anger/violence and impatience, and I’m really not sure that I can agree with that. Both are natural functions, and certainly anger is written in the anatomy of the brain. There are some very limited cases where anger is fine, when directed at Satan, or perhaps at certain actions, but NEVER at another human being. It seems pretty limiting that there aren’t more uses for this intense natural desire.

Gee, it sounds more and more like sex. But frankly there are a lot more married people than there are people who only get angry at the Devil, so really it is more restrictive for anger. Of course, the reason for this is that sex is good, and has to be misused to be sinful. Anger is neutral, and is very easily misused.

However, sex is certainly peculiar among God’s gifts. It is the only way in which we can licitly work with God to bring a new person into being. Because of this, sexuality needs to be treated with great respect.

–Jen

 

[JacquesMaritain]

Jacques, I think I would benefit greatly by perceiving chastity as a positive (i.e. extant) thing. I’ll do my best to understand. With respect, I think your examples of peace and patience are not analogous. By our nature we have a fundamental sexual faculty. It’s in our natural desires, it’s written in our anatomy. The same cannot be said for making war or scolding. I would categorize these as illicit (except in cases of just war) uses of our natural mental and physical faculties. There are lots of licit uses for these same faculties, rather than merely abstaining from abusing them. The same cannot be said for our sexual faculty.

Hi Binary:

I’m not so sure of that. I don’t want to open the can of worms called evolution here, but war and conflict is “natural” in the animal kingdom, and indeed many animals have natural weapons designed to help them kill rivals, hunt for food, defend themselves against attack, that sort of thing. So our teeth, say, were designed not as the flat ungulates for mashing and crushing grass (think cows), but rather to tear apart and cut meat (we are omnivores), and modern primates certainly hunt for some of their food.

I’m a scholar of Jared Diamond when it comes to conflict…I think, at root level, all wars are really competitions over natural resources (the Roman conquests, Lebensraum and fuel for the Axis powers in the World Wars, the numerous oil wars of our recent decades, the endless squabbling over Israel, where rival groups want the same land). So we make war as a natural extension of our need for resources…if land and oil and food were infinite, there’d be no need to go to war. But because the earth is fixed, and limited, war is “natural”. Someone is bound to point out that we make war because of our “fallen” nature (ie, we are sinners), so we can certainly argue that this is “natural” in that sense too. Because Adam and Eve brought sin into our world, is an inevitable consequence of our tendency to sin.

You can do an interesting gedankenexperiment about this. Say that Adam and Eve never
ate of the Tree. They would live forever, and presumably so would their descendants. It is estimated that over 100 billion people have walked the Earth since mankind started…eventually, no matter how fertile the Earth was, we would run up to “hard limits” on food and fuel. What then? What would conflict over limited resources look like? I suppose God already knew that we would sin, and he already knew what Satan would do, so He didn’t plan for that contingency (ie: the game was sort of “rigged” against mankind from the start, the very existence of Eden on a finite planet like the Earth presupposes that we someday get kicked out of it). But that’s another topic, I think.

Jacques

PS The 100 billion figure comes from here: prb.org/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx

 

[Binary]

Great responses, guys. I should point out that I am already very convinced of the value and importance of chastity. My questions were, do I rightly perceive chastity as an absence rather than a positive, and is there something useful to be gained from viewing sex this way.

I hope you’re not married! If so, I feel real bad for the person you’re married to if you think God wants you to do nothing.

Even for those people who aren’t married and unable, or not yet able, to engage in sexual intercourse, our sexuality is a great gift. It affects who we are and how we relate to other people and the world around us. It is a major part of our identity.

Originally (with Adam and Eve) the use of sex was under the control of our intellect and will. We would have enjoyed great sex when the time was right and wouldn’t have been troubled by temptation at other times. Then along came Satan.

The situation with sex isn’t unique. Don’t you want to eat when you don’t really need food and you need to lose several pounds but that cake looks sooo good? Yes, food is good but not all food is good for all persons at all times. Food is for nourishing the body and the expected result is health and strength to do the work we need to do.

Sex is good but not all kinds of sex for everybody whenever they feel like it. Sex is for expressing love between married people and the expected result, sooner or later, is a new person to love.

The main thing wrong with thinking about sex from the perspective you give is that it can result in dissatisfaction, ingratitude, and anger at God.

I’m not married now, but I hope and pray to be someday. If I should be so blessed, my conduct towards my wife will not give you cause for pity.

You’re right to say that my perspective made me feel resentful. Since I couldn’t see a way around it, I had hoped to turn my resentment into something better. Fortunately, you’ve shown me that I can abandon the whole outlook.

Your example of restraint with eating is perfect. If we only needed to eat say, every few months, or if we didn’t need to eat at all until we hit a certain level of age, then of course it would be proper to show restraint and avoid gluttony. Maybe we could think of restraining our desires as the mirror image, or necessary complement, to their chaste satisfaction.

When you say that our sexuality is a part of our identity and how we interact with people, are you talking about gender roles?

 

[JacquesMaritain]

Great responses, guys. I should point out that I am already very convinced of the value and importance of chastity. My questions were, do I rightly perceive chastity as an absence rather than a positive, and is there something useful to be gained from viewing sex this way. I’m not married now, but I hope and pray to be someday. If I should be so blessed, my conduct towards my wife will not give you cause for pity. You’re right to say that my perspective made me feel resentful. Since I couldn’t see a way around it, I had hoped to turn my resentment into something better. Fortunately, you’ve shown me that I can abandon the whole outlook. Your example of restraint with eating is perfect. If we only needed to eat say, every few months, or if we didn’t need to eat at all until we hit a certain level of age, then of course it would be proper to show restraint and avoid gluttony. Maybe we could think of restraining our desires as the mirror image, or necessary complement, to their chaste satisfaction. When you say that our sexuality is a part of our identity and how we interact with people, are you talking about gender roles?

Hi Binary:

In another thread we were debating the purpose of sex, and I pointed out at the time that it serves as a reference, as a pointer, as a marker for something else. St. Thomas says the purpose of marriage (and sex) is threefold: its main and principal purpose is the creation of children, its secondary purpose is the common life enjoyed by the spouses (the unity of love), and the third is the sacrament is the fidelity/faithfulness of the man and the woman. That last end is distinctively Christian; the others are not (ie, a non Christian marriage can easily give birth to children, and their spouses can both enjoy common lives together).

But here’s the interesting thing. If the sacrament of marriage requires fidelity, then it demands that we refrain from expressing our sexuality with every other person that we might ever desire, at that time, or in the future. Now it is obvious that we have the capability (and indeed many have the desire) to have sex with multiple partners; indeed, this is often seen in marriages today (infidelity is commonplace). The spouses have to continue to work at chastity, abstinence and fidelity, even when they are married (they have to do nothing should they want to stray, or be tempted by another, or they are offered congress somewhere else). So the chastity that people engage in before marriage is not a wasted thing; it is a training and preparation for the much harder work that is ahead. Many single people complain that they desire sexual activity, and they feel frustrated by its absence; but you will find when you are married, I think, that you have just traded one form of restraint for another, because the need for chastity and continence is still there.

The analogy with food is interesting. The desire for food is a good thing; but because of our sweet “tooth” (sweets were rare and hard to obtain in our distant past, so we quickly learned to associate them with desirable foods) we have a natural inclination to gravitate to sugary snacks and soft drinks. Now there is an oversupply of them, and we can see the results in the epidemic of obesity in modern life. Once we can eat as much food as we want, we still need to restrain our natural urges to consume all we can, for fear of a later shortage (once again, the roots of our basic behaviours are grounded in a hard-wired fear of resource limitations, shortages, starvation, privation). Most of human history was like this…people had constantly unfilled urges, drives and desires, because life for almost everyone was “nasty, poor, brutish and short”, and it is why conflict and war is so pervasive in human history (people wanted supplies of things they needed, that other rivals had). It is only in modern industrial societies that large swaths of the human population have the capability to (a) have sex as much as they want, with as many as they want, or (b) eat as much food as they want, of whatever type that they want; or (c) consume as many resources as they want, and live as luxuriously as they want; and so on. When they grossly overconsume, they get disorders of all types; so even when we pass from a state of scarcity into a state of abundance, it’s important to behave as though scarcity may be here again, because there are no real guarantees (absolutely assured resources) in life.

Jacques

 

[Muze]

I never understood why anyone would consider chastity to be a good thing. God gave two commands to mankind in creation: Subdue the earth, and be fruitful and multiply. The benefits of chastity only exist as a result of the fall, as fallen people must invest time and effort in marriage that might take away from other pursuits.

But, in the end, sex is a command of God (as per the command to procreate), and only excepted by the call of God to be chaste. I don’t get how anyone can say that not submitting to God’s command is better then submitting to it!

 

[Claire_from_DE]

When you say that our sexuality is a part of our identity and how we interact with people, are you talking about gender roles?

Not exactly. Our perception of gender roles can change depending on the society. But men and women really are different from each other. This can even be seen when they are young children. Ask any parent or teacher.

It’s something that seems to be hardwired into us. For example, we feel physical pain differently. I read a study that indicated men are less sensitive to external pain and women seem to be less sensitive to internal pain. Therefore, not many women feel the desire to participate in prize fighting; if men had to experience childbirth the race would die out.

Men relate to each other differently than women relate to other women.

Jesus is a man (not denying He’s divine). Men and women relate to Him in different ways. The same with the Blessed Mother. This is all good. The genders aren’t the same, they’re complementary. Both reflect God.

 

[TimothyH]

in that for many people, the thing we can do with it that is most pleasing to God is… absolutely nothing.

I’m not sure that abstinece from sex is that which is most pleasing to God. Is not joining with Him in the creation of a new human life the thing we do with sex that is the most pleasing to God? .

Man brings the sperm, woman brings the egg and God brings the spirit in whose image it is created. All three (sperm, egg, spirit) are required for human life and all three (man, woman, God) are present during sexual intercourse in a special way. God could and has created humans in on his own but he allows us to participate in one of his crowning achievments, in one of the greatest things he ever does - creation of a new life which can love him and which he can love back.

And the highest repayment we can give God for such a great gift of participating in the creation of human life is to care for the spouse who is our co-partner with God, and to care for the child which God allowed us to help create, in the context of a permanent, committed relationship - marriage.

In using sex, we join with God in becoming creators. That is not nothing. That is one of the greatest privlieges any human could be given. When we do it in the context of a permanent, committed relationship, it is most pleasing to God.

-Tim-

 

[Bwtby]

Sex is not peculiar. But, evidently, the way it is being taught… is.

Points.

There needs to be a better sex education curriculum for one. Public schools teaches us that they are ‘sexual partners’ not husbands and wives.

For two, 1 outta 4 girls and 1 outta 6 boys are sexually abused, now, right there a child gets a distorted idea of sex.

For three, terrible parenting. Lack of family stability. Lack of proper child development basically. Just look at the Moral Theology board’s topics.

A society where it’s teaching is dominated by Hollywood, an institution that has anti-moral agendas, since the beginning mind you, never adds anything helpful. I mean why does there need to be a sex scene in a movie about polka-dotted Aliens invading NYC? The chick flick playing at your local Cinema is about an affair, in a narrative where you sympathize with the mistress. Uhhh.

And we, the western world, have become so damn sensitized, we accept it. And those that try to fight it, are just nutcases.

There’s nothing more beautiful than a man and woman making love. In Islam it’s considered an act of worship to God. The Catechism should adopt that. Just saying. There is nothing more beautiful than having children. Man, woman and child… it’s the greatest blessing and the greatest gift from God. Nothing about it is peculiar. Some just need a clearer understanding of it! Just saying.

 

[Arkadin]

What’s more peculiar is how obsessive the church and christianity is with sex.

 

[Bwtby]

What’s more peculiar is how obsessive the church and christianity is with sex.

Yeah, that’s the best point.

 

[Binary]

What’s more peculiar is how obsessive the church and christianity is with sex.

“Obsess” is one of those words that immediately indicates to me that the speaker can’t form a real argument.

 

[jomoco]

You guys need to give God far more credit for being a master of embedded design when He created man and woman in Eden, so tantalizingly close to the tree of life, within their reach to freely partake of and gain eternal youth/life.

An embedded riddle, both in a bodily/sexual sense, and a written/spiritual sense.

Both us and the bible, an embedded riddle/puzzle, awaiting resolution for millenia.

Suddenly, like a self-germinating seed quickening, the answer to the Godly equation is realised, multiplicity of application as an inherent function of design. God designed our sperm/eggs to serve two sepatately distinct purposes. One to make babies, the other to make gods of men and women.

This knowledge of God’s brilliant design genius is the second coming of God’s knowledge/message to mankind. Each of us individually are affected, and must make a choice whether to partake of this truth, or not.

Duality of applicability, as a function of design. So much more than meets the eye.

Just an opinion mind you.

jomoco

 

[Bwtby]

You guys need to give God far more credit for being a master of embedded design when He created man and woman in Eden, so tantalizingly close to the tree of life, within their reach to freely partake of and gain eternal youth/life.

An embedded riddle, both in a bodily/sexual sense, and a written/spiritual sense.

Both us and the bible, an embedded riddle/puzzle, awaiting resolution for millenia.

Suddenly, like a self-germinating seed quickening, the answer to the Godly equation is realised, multiplicity of application as an inherent function of design. God designed our sperm/eggs to serve two sepatately distinct purposes. One to make babies, the other to make gods of men and women.

This knowledge of God’s brilliant design genius is the second coming of God’s knowledge/message to mankind. Each of us individually are affected, and must make a choice whether to partake of this truth, or not.

Duality of applicability, as a function of design. So much more than meets the eye.

Just an opinion mind you.

jomoco