It was with great sadness

[steve99]

It was with great sadness that I read the thread about a TLM Mass in Phoenix with 1,000 attending. There is a serious division in the Church and I fear where it is leading. One of the ways Satan has worked to destroy the Church is through division and separation. The early years of the Church were dogged by numerous heresies. Each one split off some believers from the one Church, but the numbers were small. Then came the Orthodox split, but at least they had the Apostolic succession and true sacraments and kept basically united. But with the Protestant split Satan really succeeded in hiving off many followers. And then split upon split followed once they were cut off from the magisterium.

This division between TLM and Novus-Ordo is another example of Satan at work – and I am NOT trying to imply anything about either side here. There will always be disagreements about doctrines and practices (just look at most of the treads in these forums) but this is at the heart of our life as Church. JPII said the Eucharist is the source and summit of our Christian life.

In a thread that was discussing the current and new translations there was an argument about whether the response “and also with you” or “and with your spirit” was better. One person said he/she always said “and with your spirit” even though they got funny looks from those around. This is just divisive. I hope that when the new translation is finalised it will still say “and also with you” because this seems to make more sense to me. BUT, if the Bishops decide on “and with your spirit” I will do my best to remember to say that. I go to Mass not to worship God alone, but united with my brothers and sisters.

“The whole group of believers was united, heart and soul” (Acts 4:32). Let us strive not to separate off into factions – “ I am for TLM”, I am for Novus-Ordo”.

The Magisterium have decided on the format of the Mass in the Roman Rite. There is a new translation coming which hopefully we should all be able to unite around. As I understand it the indult for the TLM was originally given as a pastoral expediency to try and keep the Lefevrist’s in the fold and as a concession to those who found the move to the new format difficult. But I think this was meant to be a temporary thing, and not to be perpetuated. Cannot we unite in this most important area of our lives?

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

steve99:

It was with great sadness that I read the thread about a TLM Mass in Phoenix with 1,000 attending. There is a serious division in the Church and I fear where it is leading. One of the ways Satan has worked to destroy the Church is through division and separation…

…The Magisterium have decided on the format of the Mass in the Roman Rite.

Whoa! Hold on there…

The same Magisterium that decided on the Mass format for the Latin Rite is the one that granted an Indult, or special permission, to be given for the celebration of the TLM.

You are making it sound like these attendees and priests/bishop are acting in schism ala SSPX and that is not the case. There are many priests who would love to do a TLM, but faithfully obey their bishops when permission is not given. To do otherwise would be an act of disobedience. However, when a bishop grants permission for a TLM to be “made available” then there is no issue of disobedience to the Magisterium.

Pope John Paul II stated that bishops should be charitable and generous in offering traditional forms of worship. When I stumble upon those words of his again, I’ll post them here. Hopefully, someone else will beat me to it. Our new pope, Benedict has the same sentiments. By speaking against the Pope’s call for more traditional liturgies - that in itself is an act that warrants some personal reflection.

 

[Liberian]

Lux_et_veritas:

Whoa! Hold on there…

The same Magisterium that decided on the Mass format for the Latin Rite is the one that granted an Indult, or special permission, to be given for the celebration of the TLM.
…
Pope John Paul II stated that bishops should be charitable and generous in offering traditional forms of worship. When I stumble upon those words of his again, I’ll post them here. Hopefully, someone else will beat me to it. Our new pope, Benedict has the same sentiments. By speaking against the Pope’s call for more traditional liturgies - that in itself is an act that warrants some personal reflection.

Lux Et Veritas,

You are probably thinking of John Paul II’s motu proprio (did I spell that correctly?) Ecclesia Dei, in which he announced that the Lefevbrists were excommunicated and in which he also announced the formation of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP), which is the legitimate Tridentine Mass community.

The problem that many people have with the Tridentine community is that many people in that community speak negatively of the Novus Ordo mass. Exactly the same thing happens in the other direction, too. If we could all respect each other’s tastes and differences there would be a lot more harmony.

• Liberian

 

[WanderAimlessly]

Although I have no desire to attend a TLM due to a schismatic RadTrad trying to shove it down mine and other peoples throats the past number of years on another BBs, it is valid and does not promote division.

It seems it is only when you get to the radical fringes to you get the types of arguement above. Both sides (RadTrads and ModSquad)use the Satan angle when trying to promote their agenda.

It is time we put this to an end. Both Masses promote unity since they are allowed by Church. It allows us to stay under one roof.

PF

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

WanderAimlessly:

Although I have no desire to attend a TLM due to a schismatic RadTrad trying to shove it down mine and other peoples throats the past number of years on another BBs, it is valid and does not promote division.

It seems it is only when you get to the radical fringes to you get the types of arguement above. Both sides (RadTrads and ModSquad)use the Satan angle when trying to promote their agenda.

It is time we put this to an end. Both Masses promote unity since they are allowed by Church. It allows us to stay under one roof.

PF

Just a friendly reminder in case you haven’t seen this in the Forum Rules:

CONDUCT RULES

• In full here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2
• Do not use abbreviated terms such as “Prots” or “radtrad” etc. that may be offensive to the group to which they refer. Full names are best.
• Do not use character substitutions in proper names, such as “Amerikkkans” or “Demonrats” or “Repubicans” etc.

---

That is the problem I had with the original post is that it goes beyond a charge of disobedience right into suggesting it is driven by Satan himself.

Obedience is a gateway through which only the Holy Spirit or other Divine being may pass, but serves as a barrier to the Angel of Darkness and to personal self-desire or pride.

When the Magisterium speaks, obey - in heart, mind, word, and action.

 

[pnewton]

Lux_et_veritas:

• Do not use abbreviated terms such as “Prots” or “radtrad” etc. that may be offensive to the group to which they refer. Full names are best.

That term has always irritated me to no end everytime I see it.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Liberian:

Lux Et Veritas,

You are probably thinking of John Paul II’s motu proprio (did I spell that correctly?) Ecclesia Dei, in which he announced that the Lefevbrists were excommunicated and in which he also announced the formation of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP), which is the legitimate Tridentine Mass community.

The problem that many people have with the Tridentine community is that many people in that community speak negatively of the Novus Ordo mass. Exactly the same thing happens in the other direction, too. If we could all respect each other’s tastes and differences there would be a lot more harmony.

• Liberian

Thanks for pointing me to Ecclesia Dei.

Those who enjoy the TLM and even more traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo Masses need to remember that they will not win anyone over by being disprespectful.

Many who participate in the Novus Ordo Mass are unaware of the vast abuses that are taking place. They participate unwittingly and it will take time for those to be weeded out. Pope Benedict will do this, I’m sure, but it will be a slow process.

After I began reading, just a few days ago, the Spirit of the Liturgy by the former Cardinal Ratzinger, it is easier to see that things I recently became uncomfortable with in the Novus Ordo Masses I attended locally, were legitimate concerns. But, I was not educated. In fact, just a few weeks ago, I didn’t know what a GIRM was, nor did I know about Redemptionis Sacramentum among other documents. It is in educating myself that liturgical abuses are coming into plain view for me.

These need to change and we need to be patient. We also need to be mindful that the masses out there have no idea how elements of the Mass have been distorted from their original intent, in some cases blatantly.

Jesus never taught with a stick - he taught with love and compassion, ever mindful of the dignity of others. Those who love the TLM should remember this simple fact, as well as those who love the Novus Ordo. There is room for both forms, and there are some faithful who may need one form or the other. We need to respect that.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

That term has always irritated me to no end everytime I see it.

And the next time you see it, simply do as I did. Go to Help-Forum Rules and paste in the rule with a friendly reminder. Many people have not read the rules :tsktsk: and they need to take the time to do this. I knew about the rule before I knew what a “radtrad” was.

 

[viktor_aleksndr]

It was with great sadness that I read the thread about a TLM Mass in Phoenix with 1,000 attending. There is a serious division in the Church and I fear where it is leading. One of the ways Satan has worked to destroy the Church is through division and separation.

Wait my first question is this. Is that church in phoenix a catholic church or the society of pope pius which was excommunicated by the catholic church?

If that church is still catholic church (who acknowledge the authority of the pope) then there is no division happened. The Roman Catholic Church still allow the TLM on private mass or in public mass (with indult).

 

[WanderAimlessly]

viktor aleksndr:

Wait my first question is this. Is that church in phoenix a catholic church or the society of pope pius which was excommunicated by the catholic church?

If that church is still catholic church (who acknowledge the authority of the pope) then there is no division happened. The Roman Catholic Church still allow the TLM on private mass or in public mass (with indult).

Viktor:

I think Steve99 is referring to information in some of the following threads:

• Phoenix Tridentine Mass with Spanish Homily
• Tridentine indult Masses in Phoenix become permanent, more frequent (AZ Republic)
• More Tridentine Masses Coming to Phoenix, AZ and a New Monastery!!!

These are valid and do not connotate division in the Church.

PF

 

[steve99]

Lux_et_veritas:

That is the problem I had with the original post is that it goes beyond a charge of disobedience right into suggesting it is driven by Satan himself.

I was trying to be careful about how I said this, and if I got it wrong I apologise. As I said “I am NOT trying to imply anything about either side here”. What I was trying to say is that Satan is always trying to divide us. As St. Paul says (Eph 6:12) For it is not against human enemies that we have to struggle, but against the Sovereignties and the Powers who originate the darkness in this world, the spiritual army of evil in the heavens." In that sense, yes, any division is driven by Satan. It is what he wants.

Nor was I intending to suggest that disobedience was involved (although that is how it started the Lefevbrists). But I do maintain that the situation is divisive, and is not good for the future of the Church.

We cannot say that we are “united, heart and soul” when we will not agree on a common Rite where we all worship together (and please don’t sidetrack into non Roman Rites).

Satan has three main tactics to try and destroy the Church with:- division, corruption, and external attack, and the Church has sufferred all three over the centuries, and is still sufferring them.

WanderAimlessly says “Both Masses promote unity since they are allowed by Church. It allows us to stay under one roof.” But we are not under one roof. Some people in a parish go the parish for Novus-Ordo, and others go somewhere else for their TLM .

 

[WanderAimlessly]

steve99:

WanderAimlessly says “Both Masses promote unity since they are allowed by Church. It allows us to stay under one roof.” But we are not under one roof. Some people in a parish go the parish for Novus-Ordo, and others go somewhere else for their TLM .

But if both are performed in churches in communion with Rome, they are both both part of the Catholic Church.

Using your logic, the Eastern Rite Catholics are divided from us since they use the Divine Liturgy instead of the Novus Ordo. This is not so. They are also part of the Catholic Church.

PF

 

[Dropper]

I, personally, wouldn’t be so quick to state that the SSPX is in schism. If you look at all the evidence they definately are in an irregular postition within the Church, but aren’t in schism.

Look to the situation in Campos for more information.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Dropper:

I, personally, wouldn’t be so quick to state that the SSPX is in schism. If you look at all the evidence they definately are in an irregular postition within the Church, but aren’t in schism.

Look to the situation in Campos for more information.

The Society of Pius XII priests and bishops are in schism. Ecclesia Dei is plain.

With respect, I don’t see why anyone should grieve over a bishop, in charity and in obedience to the Holy Father’s request, allowing the Indult to his folk. It’s a pastoral decision, intended for the comfort of souls. Many people are attached to it and love it. I know it wasn’t the original intent of the old Holy Father or his desire, but perhaps Holy Mother Church should allow two rites (as it were, I know the term isn’t precise) within the Roman Rite. We have all the other old and glorious rites of our Eastern brothers and sisters and it doesn’t seem to impact the unity of the Church negatively.

I don’t want to attend a Mass in Latin. I entered the Church under the Mass of Paul VI and I hope to die under it and have it offered as my funeral Mass. So, being as attached to it as I am, I have lots of empathy for the folks who had the Mass THEY love shunted off the scene. There’s room for both surely. What we have to watch is disparging remarks about either (I’m guilty, too).

 

[Wolseley]

Personally, I think the fact that a thousand people went to an indult Tridentine Mass is absolutely wonderful. Maybe it’ll serve as a smack in the head for the American bishops, and get them to wake up.

I don’t know what it’s like on your side of the pond, but I can tell you that here in the United States, the reason that a good many of us favor the Tridentine Mass is because we are quite frankly sick and tired of the constant abuse, dissent, disrespect, irreverence, and watered-down, politically-correct, touchy-feely theology that has become associated with the Novus Ordo Mass over the past 40 years.

If the clergy, the liturgists, and the U.S. hierarchy would celebrate the Novus Ordo Mass the way it’s SUPPOSED to be celebrated, there wouldn’t be a need for 1,000 people to “vote with their feet” and go to a Mass that’s actually celebrated properly.

It’s not the people who are being divisive, steve. It’s the clergy and the self-appointed “liturgical experts” who are doing the dividing. They are the ones who are driving people out of Novus Ordo Masses and into Tridentine Masses with all of their non-approved, sacriligious “innovations”, disrespect for the Blessed Sacrament, hideous architecture, crappy music, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Think about it.

 

[Christus_Rex]

I’d much rather a 100 people at a Tridentine Latin Mass than a Novus Ordo Mass with girls prancing around in leotards, tennagers strumming away on guitars, projectors and screens, table ‘altar’, folk songs, and all this weird postures and stuff.

By the way, I attend a Novus Ordo, and its absolutely beautiful. Celebrated how it should be celebrated.

Michael

 

[pnewton]

Dropper:

I, personally, wouldn’t be so quick to state that the SSPX is in schism. If you look at all the evidence they definately are in an irregular postition within the Church, but aren’t in schism.
.

They are in schism. If you would do a search for “SSPX” under “Ask an Apologist” forum, you would find the reason for this and the appropriate church documents. This has been answered many times over the last year and the gist is that Pope John Paul II declared them in schism and by definition they are.

 

[snow_white]

The only change that needs to take place between the TLM and the NO is a change of heart. We don’t become like somebody else to be more united, we just be kind to them, and I think this applies to the differences in the Churches as well, including the Eastern Rite and Western Rite.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

steve99:

I was trying to be careful about how I said this, and if I got it wrong I apologise. As I said “I am NOT trying to imply anything about either side here”. What I was trying to say is that Satan is always trying to divide us. As St. Paul says (Eph 6:12) For it is not against human enemies that we have to struggle, but against the Sovereignties and the Powers who originate the darkness in this world, the spiritual army of evil in the heavens." In that sense, yes, any division is driven by Satan. It is what he wants.

Nor was I intending to suggest that disobedience was involved (although that is how it started the Lefevbrists). But I do maintain that the situation is divisive, and is not good for the future of the Church.

We cannot say that we are “united, heart and soul” when we will not agree on a common Rite where we all worship together (and please don’t sidetrack into non Roman Rites).

Satan has three main tactics to try and destroy the Church with:- division, corruption, and external attack, and the Church has sufferred all three over the centuries, and is still sufferring them.

WanderAimlessly says “Both Masses promote unity since they are allowed by Church. It allows us to stay under one roof.” But we are not under one roof. Some people in a parish go the parish for Novus-Ordo, and others go somewhere else for their TLM .

It sure took me for a surprise with your opening statement, which sounded like the problem was the TLM.

steve99:

It was with great sadness that I read the thread about a TLM Mass in Phoenix with 1,000 attending.

Now, maybe you didn’t intend for it to sound like you had a problem with the TLM Mass in Phoenix, which is how the opener came across. It sounds as if you are clarifying that it is not the Mass itself you have a problem with, but the “fighting” between those who want it and those who don’t.

What I will say is that while there are some who want the TLM who are uncharitable in their pushiness for it, I see much more of a defensiveness on the part of those who don’t want it, who seem to feel threatened by it.

I’ll be the first to admit that since switching over to a traditional, orthodox parish, I don’t feel out of place showing outward signs of reverence. If I were to do these things - all of which are GIRM or RS compliant - in a more contemporary parish, I would feel out of place. In some cases, such people are judged, snickered at, talked about, and in some cases outright harassed or discriminated against - all in the name of “harmony”. A young girl with a mini-skirt, and half her “stuff” hanging out the front of her top is more readily accepted than a little old lady who wants to kneel for Holy Communion.

Those who want the TLM or traditional formatted Novus Ordo Masses are in the minority - at least visibly. There are many Catholic communities who will shun orthodox Catholics and their devotions, while accepting other Catholics who promote the gay culture, abortion, and women priests (even though it was declared infallible that it remain all male, in 1995). Such communities welcome other Catholics who want to challenge the Magisterium, but scorn a fellow Catholic who simply wants to understand the teachings and adhere to them.

So, where is the problem really? Is it with those orthodox Catholics who want to worship in traditional forms and practice orthodoxy, mindful that it is the Holy Spirit which guides the Magisterium, or those who like to think the Holy Spirit requires protestors, sash-wearers, and dissenters in order to move the Church?

People should not fear the TLM coming into their area. In fact, I don’t think it is the TLM that they fear, but the orthodoxy that comes with it.

I’d rather go to meet my maker adhering to Church teaching, than to err on the side of challenging it. I like the cultures within those parishes where TLM’s and traditional NO’s prevail because I don’t have to walk on eggshells over my newfound orthodox beliefs.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Lux_et_veritas:

After I began reading, just a few days ago, the Spirit of the Liturgy by the former Cardinal Ratzinger, it is easier to see that things I recently became uncomfortable with in the Novus Ordo Masses I attended locally, were legitimate concerns. But, I was not educated. In fact, just a few weeks ago, I didn’t know what a GIRM was, nor did I know about Redemptionis Sacramentum among other documents. It is in educating myself that liturgical abuses are coming into plain view for me.

These need to change and we need to be patient. We also need to be mindful that the masses out there have no idea how elements of the Mass have been distorted from their original intent, in some cases blatantly.

Diane (and everyone else who really cares),

I am so glad that you are reading Cardinal Ratzinger’s work on the liturgy. You will also really enjoy the even greater insights given by the late Monsignor Klaus Gamber in his The Reform of the Roman Liturgy: Its Problems and Background. Cardinal Ratzinger was a strong supporter of Monsignor Gamber.

It really would be a big help if now, when we have a pope who was a German Vatican II peritus and who spent twenty years heading the CDF, we would spend some time reading what was and is the opinion of these liturgical experts, as well as the story of that Council and the activites that derived from it!

Since so many materials are now available to all of us, it becomes a little juvenile to continue with our, “It seems to me…,” It’s my opinion…," “Well, what I like…” etc., with no reference to any authentic work from experts.

Interestingly enough, most of what they have to say is easily intelligible to the average reader, and when their ideas are based on something more difficult, it’s worth spending a little extra time getting those things figured out.

God bless,

Anna