It was with great sadness

[Anna_Elizabeth]

JKirkLVNV:

I don’t want to attend a Mass in Latin. I entered the Church under the Mass of Paul VI and I hope to die under it and have it offered as my funeral Mass. So, being as attached to it as I am, I have lots of empathy for the folks who had the Mass THEY love shunted off the scene. There’s room for both surely. What we have to watch is disparging remarks about either (I’m guilty, too).

Dear JKirkLVNV,

Would you please read the documents of VII, the stories ( and now there are quite a few available), of how VII took place, the ways in which the documents were put into action and the opinions of liturgical experts, such as Cardinal Ratzinger?

I realize that I am asking you to set aside hours of time over many months, but I promise you that your own ideas and comments will be of far more value and carry more weight if you show a knowledge of what went on then vis-a-vis what’s going on presently.

This isn’t meant as criticism, because if I didn’t think your comments are valuable, I wouldn’t bother to contact you!

God bless,

Anna

 

[Genesis315]

Then Cardinal Ratzinger had this to say about the new Mass:

in place of the liturgy as the fruit of organic development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it, as in a manufacturing process, with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product”.

Take that for what it’s worth.

As for the original post, there have been multiple styles, if you will, of Masses pretty much since the beginning. Even today we have the various rites with their Masses or Divnie Liturgies: Byzantine, Melkite, Mazorabic, Chaldean, Latin, etc. In my diocese for example, you can go to a Pauline (what some call novus ordo), Byzantine, Ukrainian, or Tridentine Mass. Diversity doesn’t have to be a threat to unity.

 

[Genesis315]

steve99:

As I understand it the indult for the TLM was originally given as a pastoral expediency to try and keep the Lefevrist’s in the fold and as a concession to those who found the move to the new format difficult. But I think this was meant to be a temporary thing, and not to be perpetuated. Cannot we unite in this most important area of our lives?

Well, Pius V intended for it to be perpetuated. His intent wasn’t honored (I don’t mean that in a bad way, it’s the only word I can think of), so why should Paul VI’s intent be honored in this situation? At least where I go, there are many more young people at the TLM than at the Pauline Mass so maybe it has good fruits. Let’s keep it around:thumbsup:

You know, one could argue the Pauline Mass was also implemented for Pastoral expediency to get people to participate in the Mass more and to make the Mass more accessible to potential Protestant and non-Christian converts.

I don’t think we would argue that the conversion of those outside the Church is a bad idea. Likewise, I don’t think doing something to keep people in the Church is a bad idea either–as long as the Church stays faithful to the Truth, disciplines should be tailored to fit the spiritual needs and well-being of the faithful and people of good will.

 

[TJD]

I’m with Steve99 on this one. I think his warning should be headed.

More than once when perusing the various threads, I have recalled the Donatist Schism. They were the knuckleheads who separated from the Church in the 4th century because they did not think the Catholics were Holy or devout enough. They refused to forgive those who failed to accept martyrdom thus compromising their faith. They also did not like the Catholics who emerged after the faith was accepted by the Roman Empire. Instead of nurturing the faith the Church leaders in North Africa were fighting the schism. This was a brilliant move by the Prince of Lies. Christianity is no longer vibrant in North Africa, and I understand that Danatism contributed to our downfall there.

We are …one holy catholic and apostolic church… some sin more than others, some have the gifts of piety and temperance more than others, some have wisdom and understanding more than others, some are more courageous than others, some know more than others, some have a healthy fear of the Lord, and some like the vernacular in Mass more than others. We are all part of the Church.

This doesn’t mean we accept sin, no we stand up against sin. Sometimes, a disagreement has nothing to do with sin, but just different perspectives. Regardless, sin or not, we should avoid passing judgment. So let us learn from each other, challenge each other, listen to each other and get along. Really our Christian example should demonstrate our faith. We also must trust the Holy Spirit’s guidance of the Church through the Magisterium. (That includes the “notorious” American Bishops)

So you can head Steve99’s caution or say he is all wet. But if and when Pope Benedict disappoints you, and he may, please help keep the Church strong. Don’t let pride make Her weaker. Satan revels in a weak church.

Christ’s Peace,

TJD

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

TJD:

So you can head Steve99’s caution or say he is all wet. But if and when Pope Benedict disappoints you, and he may, please help keep the Church strong. Don’t let pride make Her weaker. Satan revels in a weak church.

A good Catholic follows the Magisterium obediently and with a smile on his or her face, not in a disgruntled manner. Such obedience shows trust in the Holy Spirit. Such obedience is barrier to self-desire, pride, and the Angel of Darkness.

That having been said, those who choose not to obey and go out on their own (on either end of the spectrum), or those who obey in action, and not in heart, do not please the Lord who was the perfect model of obedience. He was obedient to death, death on a cross.