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Little_Boy_Lost
Guest
Another step backwards no?
The article was from St. Elias in Toronto.
The article was from St. Elias in Toronto.
Italian Catholic Episcopal Conference Vetoes Married Priests
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K
KyivAndrew
Guest
Let the Romanian hierarchy put the letter from the Italian Episcopal Conference in some corner for now. What, are the Carabinieri going to be called to arrest married Romanian Catholic priests in Italy? Does the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church not have enough problems already that it should add to the problems of sui juris Eastern Catholic Churches on top of this? Priestly celibacy is a discipline not doctrine.
We are to be brothers and sisters in Christ in the same Church, but we are not Roman Rite but Eastern Catholic as is our historical patrimony. The Italian Episcopate’s letter, if correctly translated, would bear a little, not much, consideration if the Roman Catholic Church respected the Eastern Catholic Churches’ “territorial jurisdictions” and prerogatives: to wit, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, with Ukrainian Catholics having lived an illegal, clandestine, and life-threatening existence under communism finally becoming free, Rome began creating Roman Catholic dioceses throughout Ukraine in the 1990s, despite the fact that there already was a native Catholic Church in the country on the ground - the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.
To my knowledge, nobody from the Ukrainian Catholic Church complained; heck, nobody from the Ukrainian Catholic Church roundly complained when the Vatican went off to talks with the Orthodox Moscow Patriarchate to discuss the Ukrainian Catholic Church without our Church even being allowed to speak for itself. All the signs pointed to the Vatican wishing the largest Eastern Catholic Church in the world - the Ukrainian Catholic - to be circumscribed territorially in its jurisdiction. Not one Ukrainian Catholic hierarch objected to new Roman Catholic dioceses throughout Ukraine while the Ukrainian Catholics were supposed to remain contained in some provinces in the West. We belong to the same Church and saw and see ourselves as members of the same Church.
With all the problems and challenges - internal and external - Catholicism and faith in Christ for that matter have in the world today, why make a problem out of something that is a historical right of the Eastern Catholic Churches? Churches, including Roman Catholic, desperately need priests to administer sacraments, etc. for the faithful, the sheep need shepherds - I understand there is a dearth. Why on God’s earth should the Italian bishops make it more difficult for their brothers in the Eastern Catholic Churches to fulfill their calling to God and duty to their faithful? It seems it all comes down to basically “appearances” now in such a decision which only reinforces the worry that ultimately, some Roman Catholics consider Eastern Catholics to be somehow 2nd class. Given what many of the Eastern Catholic Churches had to endure under communism totalitarianism last century and the lives lost, a Church built on martyrs somehow doesn’t “appear” that it should be considered 2nd class.
We are to be brothers and sisters in Christ in the same Church, but we are not Roman Rite but Eastern Catholic as is our historical patrimony. The Italian Episcopate’s letter, if correctly translated, would bear a little, not much, consideration if the Roman Catholic Church respected the Eastern Catholic Churches’ “territorial jurisdictions” and prerogatives: to wit, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, with Ukrainian Catholics having lived an illegal, clandestine, and life-threatening existence under communism finally becoming free, Rome began creating Roman Catholic dioceses throughout Ukraine in the 1990s, despite the fact that there already was a native Catholic Church in the country on the ground - the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.
To my knowledge, nobody from the Ukrainian Catholic Church complained; heck, nobody from the Ukrainian Catholic Church roundly complained when the Vatican went off to talks with the Orthodox Moscow Patriarchate to discuss the Ukrainian Catholic Church without our Church even being allowed to speak for itself. All the signs pointed to the Vatican wishing the largest Eastern Catholic Church in the world - the Ukrainian Catholic - to be circumscribed territorially in its jurisdiction. Not one Ukrainian Catholic hierarch objected to new Roman Catholic dioceses throughout Ukraine while the Ukrainian Catholics were supposed to remain contained in some provinces in the West. We belong to the same Church and saw and see ourselves as members of the same Church.
With all the problems and challenges - internal and external - Catholicism and faith in Christ for that matter have in the world today, why make a problem out of something that is a historical right of the Eastern Catholic Churches? Churches, including Roman Catholic, desperately need priests to administer sacraments, etc. for the faithful, the sheep need shepherds - I understand there is a dearth. Why on God’s earth should the Italian bishops make it more difficult for their brothers in the Eastern Catholic Churches to fulfill their calling to God and duty to their faithful? It seems it all comes down to basically “appearances” now in such a decision which only reinforces the worry that ultimately, some Roman Catholics consider Eastern Catholics to be somehow 2nd class. Given what many of the Eastern Catholic Churches had to endure under communism totalitarianism last century and the lives lost, a Church built on martyrs somehow doesn’t “appear” that it should be considered 2nd class.
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Nine_Two
Guest
This is exactly why most Orthodox believe so strongly in the one-bishop-per-territory concept.
Now if only we could figure out how to practice what we preach.
Soon hopefully.
Now if only we could figure out how to practice what we preach.
Soon hopefully.
K
KyivAndrew
Guest
Yes, I forgot about you guys over there too.This is exactly why most Orthodox believe so strongly in the one-bishop-per-territory concept.
Now if only we could figure out how to practice what we preach.
Soon hopefully.
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5Loaves
Guest
This is. excuse me, nonsense. The Latin Church here in the US at this point has over 100 married priests in the Latin Church and more on the way, forget about even talking about the Eastern Churches. They can prevent “confusion among the faithful” there by good catechesis.
As they acknowledge in the article:
HH Benedict XVI must be scratching his head. He continues to be in a no win situation. If he takes any action people complain of Rome controlling our EC Churches. Rome has said enough times already “Return to the praxis of your heritage!” which in this case is the option of married clergy.
Prayers for this situation. We all suffer when there is this kind of confusion.
P.S. Now that my blood pressure is going back down… thanks for the referral to this blog!
I didn’t realize St.Elias was blogging. I now see the link upper left margin on their site, I love the content on their site but for me it can be hard to process visually with all the stuff they have all over the home page. I’ll have to try to take more time to keep track of what’s there besides what I’m used to looking at.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
What you say is very true sir!
It sometimes makes one think about the point of being in “communion with Rome.” What is the point, after all? It’s bad enough having to struggle for survival against historic enemies - but when the Vatican itself joins forces with them and tries to prevent the growth of the UGCC on ITS OWN TERRITORY - what is the point?
Should the UGCC not focus on trying to form a united Ukrainian Orthodox Church instead?
Alex
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Hesychios
Guest
Didn’t they try to do this with the UGCC priests of Italy less than ten years ago?
This is not the first time this bus has been around the block.
How dare they?
Does this ban also apply to the Italo-Albanian church? If not, why not?
Are all Sui Iuris churches equal or aren’t they?
C
ciero
Guest
amen amen amen!!!
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malphono
Guest
The line
To make things worse, in case anyone here hasn’t noticed and/or is interested, a variation (actually the second statement in that very same line) is used by a good number of bishops from certain of the Oriental Chuches, to justify the imposition of versus populum, and that despite the famous “Instruction” from the Oriental Congregation.
kills me. It’s so old and stale that it has a beard longer than Methuselah’s. Ultimately, it represents the same principle behind the infamous Cum data fuerit with which we are, officially at least, still saddled.
To make things worse, in case anyone here hasn’t noticed and/or is interested, a variation (actually the second statement in that very same line) is used by a good number of bishops from certain of the Oriental Chuches, to justify the imposition of versus populum, and that despite the famous “Instruction” from the Oriental Congregation.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Unless the vote was unaimous or was a 2/3 majority and ratified by Rome, then it is non-binding upon any bishop in the conference.
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Maureen1125
Guest
We all know that I like to buck the system so I am sure it won’t come as a surprise that I do NOT see married priests being the end of the catholic church. In fact, if you want to increase vocations, then this is 1 way to do just that. I personally know several men who would have loved to be Priests, but they also wanted to have a family. I am sure we all know at least 1 priest - I personally know 4 - who have left the priesthood, not because they fell in love, but because they longed for a family. They longed to be called Daddy or Father in a very real way.
Most other denominations allow their ministers to marry and it has not caused any harm or scandle that I can think of.
Also, think how much better a married Priest would be at counselling a couple in a troubled marriage. Many times I have spoken to my Priest about my marriage and felt like he just doesn’t get it, since he has never experienced it.
Most other denominations allow their ministers to marry and it has not caused any harm or scandle that I can think of.
Also, think how much better a married Priest would be at counselling a couple in a troubled marriage. Many times I have spoken to my Priest about my marriage and felt like he just doesn’t get it, since he has never experienced it.
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Hesychios
Guest
I found a reference to the CEI (bishops conference of Italy) asking the UGCC to not send married priests in 2002.
Does anyone have any further information on how that was handled?
I remember that the Polish bishops tried to send the UGCC priests packing in the late 90’s, but the Pope overturned Cardinal Soldano’s position on the matter.
This looks like a never-ending issue…
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BernadetteM
Guest
I would assume that without the approval of the Pope, their voices hold no authority.
Also I was thinking does anyone find that this annoucement has come at the same time when the Ordinariate for Anglicans has been established and that most of the priests and Bishops entering the Church are married? Is this their way of tryng to stop what the Holy Father has implemented?
We must pray for Pope Benedict as he seems to have many Bishops etc. who are against him. He has shown courage and much pastoral care for all souls.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
Also I was thinking does anyone find that this annoucement has come at the same time when the Ordinariate for Anglicans has been established and that most of the priests and Bishops entering the Church are married? Is this their way of tryng to stop what the Holy Father has implemented?
We must pray for Pope Benedict as he seems to have many Bishops etc. who are against him. He has shown courage and much pastoral care for all souls.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
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Aramis
Guest
It certainly stacks up to look that way.
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BernadetteM
Guest
Yes the thought just came to me when I read the OP’s post. It is a shame that some Bishops and other Catholics don’t educate themselves on how these married priests that have been in the Church for many years have brought much to their parishes and are an asset to the whole Church.
Thank the Lord we have Pope Benedict who stands his ground on many issues that are not popular within the Church today. I pray he lives a long and healthy life.
I remember back when he was a Cardinal and was being interviewed on EWTN and said he had asked Pope John Paul II if he could retire and the Pope said he needed him. He really didn’t want this position as head of the Church, however it seems that the Holy Spirit had other plans.
God Bless
Bernadette
Thank the Lord we have Pope Benedict who stands his ground on many issues that are not popular within the Church today. I pray he lives a long and healthy life.
I remember back when he was a Cardinal and was being interviewed on EWTN and said he had asked Pope John Paul II if he could retire and the Pope said he needed him. He really didn’t want this position as head of the Church, however it seems that the Holy Spirit had other plans.
God Bless
Bernadette
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KShaft
Guest
Amen to this. Alienate Eastern Rite Catholics who are loyal despite all the nonsense they have to put up with from Rome, and with duplicity such as this what incentives are you giving the Eastern Orthodox to submit themselves to?
The whole confronting commies is pretty awesome to me. The Faithfulness of the Catholics dealing with those godless wretches and their persecutions is just nothing less than inspired to me. I hear all the testimony from guys from Slavic states that were under the iron curtain and its pretty scary. A Church forged in fire and washed in blood. Purged of uncleanliness. We complacent Roman Catholics are the second class ones.
Dont get me wrong, I love and am loyal to the Holy See, but some of the guys under his Holiness are utterly daft or willfully malicious. “Might confuse the faithful…” HUH!?! Yeah they are confused until you explain it to them or the google it… The faithful hardly knows Eastern Rite guys exist most of the time! Whos gonna be confused? Three Italian dudes whos GPS gadget drove em to the wrong “Catholic” Church?
“Whats all dis-a? What’s witha all the bells and da wood, and da kiddie paintings? Did that priesta say he had a wife-a?! Whats a goin on-a?! Moma-Mia!! Im a so confused-a!”
This is shameful and is a total lack of respect for the church in question and their customs. The Eastern Church is different. Thats the point!!!
What one of the posters said is correct. We need to remove the plank from our eye before we tell other to remove the spec that isnt even there from theirs. The Holy Roman Church has enough problems they need to deal with. Leave the guys who actually practice the Faith as done in ancient times alone.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
Well, you have made my day!!!
God bless you and all our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters!
Alex
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Hesychios
Guest
Hi Andrew,
If so, that would mean the Pope has not erected one for them. The Romanian Catholic Sui Iuris Ritual particular church has no authority to place a bishop in Italy on it’s own authority.
If there is no Romanian eparchy, that would mean that the Romanian Catholic immigrants are completely under the discipline of the Latin Catholic bishops of Italy, and as good Catholics they are expected to be obedient.
BTW, slightly different topic but I wonder if the Pope has approved new bishops for the Italo-Albanian church, or what exactly is happening with the administration of those two dioceses. I also wonder if the Vatican recognizes the whole of Italy as the canonical home territory of the Italo-Albanian Catholic church, or if that concept doesn’t apply in their case.
As far as I can tell there is no Romanian hierachy in Italy. If anyone has information to the contrary, I am interested to learn about it, but I didn’t see any reference to Romanian Catholic bishops in Italy anywhere.
If so, that would mean the Pope has not erected one for them. The Romanian Catholic Sui Iuris Ritual particular church has no authority to place a bishop in Italy on it’s own authority.
If there is no Romanian eparchy, that would mean that the Romanian Catholic immigrants are completely under the discipline of the Latin Catholic bishops of Italy, and as good Catholics they are expected to be obedient.
If the person is occupying a rectory belonging to the Latin Catholic bishop without permission and refuses to leave, I think he can expect to be evicted, the law enforcement might be called in.
- sigh -
It speaks volumes that the UGCC has a restriction to canonical territory, but the Latin church does not.
This should be a surprise to no one.
BTW, slightly different topic but I wonder if the Pope has approved new bishops for the Italo-Albanian church, or what exactly is happening with the administration of those two dioceses. I also wonder if the Vatican recognizes the whole of Italy as the canonical home territory of the Italo-Albanian Catholic church, or if that concept doesn’t apply in their case.
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Formosus
Guest
I imagine the Italio-Greeks/Albanians are probably territorially restricted to the southern most part of Italy, since those were the last areas to retain Byzantine control.
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amenministries
Guest
*Most other denominations allow their ministers to marry and it has not caused any harm or scandle that I can think of.
Also, think how much better a married Priest would be at counselling a couple in a troubled marriage. Many times I have spoken to my Priest about my marriage and felt like he just doesn’t get it, since he has never experienced it.*
ahhhhh and i joined CAF today expecting to see actual catholics… i had no idea i would puke on my keyboard the first post i read… you are comparing catholic priest, which have had their souls marked at ordination, to be a spouse to the church. to a minister who sat in a liberal theology class, and was taught untruth.
Also, think how much better a married Priest would be at counselling a couple in a troubled marriage. Many times I have spoken to my Priest about my marriage and felt like he just doesn’t get it, since he has never experienced it.*
ahhhhh and i joined CAF today expecting to see actual catholics… i had no idea i would puke on my keyboard the first post i read… you are comparing catholic priest, which have had their souls marked at ordination, to be a spouse to the church. to a minister who sat in a liberal theology class, and was taught untruth.
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