Italian Catholic Episcopal Conference Vetoes Married Priests

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The issue is addressed in the current Code of Canons for Oriental Churches which I posted above.

I think that should be enough.

 

[Biedrik]

Brother David, a lot of latin posters here on CAF have said that they prefer a married priest to a celibate one. A lot of this has to do with confession. Do you understand the fear of these Italian Bishops that a good number of their laity will switch rites because they prefer listening to and confessing to a married priest?

I’m pretty sure this isn’t really that big a deal. I don’t think I’ve ever even heard any of my fellow Latins express such a wish. I’ve heard them ask for optional celibacy for other reasons, but this one I have not heard. Besides, the process to switching over to the East isn’t a speedy one. I doubt you really could have a good number of people switch, if only because of a lack of patience on the part of most people. Ultimately, like so many problems in the Church, the solution is good catechesis. Latins such as you and I need to teach our brethren about what the East is and why it is great, but why it is important for us to stick to being Latin, just as the East should stick to being East.

 

[dvdjs]

Its the same thing that happened here in the United States in the early 20th century. The argument (confusion among the laity) is exactly the same argument.

It is not the same.
In the US much more was in question:

1. Should immigrants - of various ethnic groups and various ritual patrimonies - have their own parishes or should they join existing parishes of other groups and patrimonies?
2. Should Greek Catholic parishes and their priests be under the local ordinary (Latin) or have their own bishops
3. Should Greek Catholics of various ethnic groups have their own Bishops
4. Should the norm of ordaining married men, long-established in the old country, be transferred here, independent of their impact on the pre-established local church, or should special, temporary, norms be applied.

Note that the first three questions are, evidently, resolved. That is progress. If we cannot admit this, then we are just not talking about reality.

The last question led to the idea that carte blanche requires consent of the pre-existing episcopal conference; otherwise special norms apply. What does that mean in practice?

It does not mean that married priests are forbidden; it does not mean that Bishops cannot ordain married men. You might think that RC men who drop out of seminary to get married, then develop a sudden interest in Eastern Catholic churches might be excluded under the special norms, but in fact such cases go through - somehow or other.

What it does mean is that the various particular churches occupying the same space must be cognizant of each other, and how their own actions affect each other. IMO there need to be more of this cognizance not less. There are too many sad examples of competition and conflict versus cooperation among local churches - not just among us but also among the free range EOs in the US. IMO such mutual recognition is not too much to ask. It makes sense for the good of the Church, and is just the sort of thing that should come from the central office.

So I guess us restoring our married priesthood in the United States is wrong also dvdjs?

Huh? Special norms apply in the US, but the proportion of married EC priests in the US continues to grow; Right or wrong - however that might be assessed - the married priesthood is being restored. And AFAIK, it is being restored at a rate and to extent determined by EC bishops. Do you know of cases that have been capriciously blocked from outside ?

Some people think that the pace and extent is too slow, or have stories of their married friends who were told to think of another vocation. Each case requires discernment by bishops who are well informed of the particulars. I don’t second guess them. I welcome a conservative approach here; I see no need to jump at every chance just to show that are doing it. I don’t have anything against celibate priests. However, given the small size of our parishes, we will need married priests. It is not an issue of right or wrong, but a necessity. We have very high vocation rates as compared to most RC dioceses, but not high enough to staff our churches. I am happy to see progress in this restoration.

 

[ciero]

Brother David, a lot of latin posters here on CAF have said that they prefer a married priest to a celibate one. A lot of this has to do with confession. Do you understand the fear of these Italian Bishops that a good number of their laity will switch rites because they prefer listening to and confessing to a married priest?

Do you think these same folks would still be interested in the East when they found out about the long services or the fasting requirements that also went along with being Eastern…you know it’s not all about a married priesthood.

 

[dvdjs]

And as you can see by Canon 758 §1 6° the Eastern Church is to follow its particular law and only Rome (758 §3) can set special norms. No where in the Code do I see that Episcopal Conferences can set such.

From what I have read and understand - although I am not a canon lawyer - the idea is that the special norms and central oversight can be waived entirely upon agreement of the local Episcopal Conference. The Conference does not abrogate Canon 758 §1 6°, but it can agree to endorse blanket approval, eliminating the need to be special review. This agreement was given in Australia.

 

[dvdjs]

Do you think these same folks would still be interested in the East when they found out about the long services or the fasting requirements that also went along with being Eastern…you know it’s not all about a married priesthood.

I wouldn’t think that it is easy being a priest - West or East, celibate or married. But this potential abuse should be forestalled by the special norms.

 

[Biedrik]

Do you think these same folks would still be interested in the East when they found out about the long services or the fasting requirements that also went along with being Eastern…you know it’s not all about a married priesthood.

Indeed. One would need to like more about the East than just the married priesthood. You can’t try to join saying “I love married priests! And I guess that divine liturgy is ok too…” To be in any tradition of the Church, one must love the traditions wholly, rather than joining up for something minor like married clergy.

 

[dvdjs]

There is more to being an Eastern Catholic than just wanting a married secular priesthood. There is a love the the Eastern Rite and its theology which most Roman Catholics do not have as they are drawn to Western theology and its Rite.

Bravo. Although it would be easy to be misled. There is more passion and reaction over this issue - as though it were the sine qua non of the Eastern Rite. All things considered, I don’t see this issue as our most pressing problem. I don’t understand the fixation on it, especially when people are really fighting battles that we have already won.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Bravo. Although it would be easy to be misled. There is more passion and reaction over this issue - as though it were the sine qua non of the Eastern Rite - than most any other
element of our practice. All things considered, this issue is not our most pressing problem.

You are right, it is not a huge issue. I just have an issue with hierarchs outside of our Churches setting up rules for us.

That is what is at issue for me.

I wonder how Roman Catholics would take it if the Synod of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church told the Roman Catholic dioceses in Ukraine that they had to start accepting married men to the priesthood because them only having a celibate secular clergy was confusing to the UGCC laity.

 

[dvdjs]

You are right, it is not a huge issue. I just have an issue with hierarchs outside of our Churches setting up rules for us.
That is what is at issue for me.

Fair enough. I understand this point and agree. And it’s not just rules but actions that hurt us.

A Latin bishop, probably thinking nice thoughts about breathing with both lungs, decided to set up an EC church directly under him. The new parish was in direct competition with a small BC parish. Thanks, your grace, for your interest in Eastern Christianity. (It turns out that, after a setback, the BC parish is thriving.)

It is moves like that that make me wish for more regulation, not less, on actions that have the potential for unintended consequences against sister churches. I am happy to work to avoid our having potentially negative effects and other particular churches, because I would like them to consider at all times their effect on us.

 

[dvdjs]

I wonder how Roman Catholics would take it if the Synod of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church told the Roman Catholic dioceses in Ukraine that they had to start accepting married men to the priesthood because them only having a celibate secular clergy was confusing to the UGCC laity.

I don’t think that anyone would believe that the Ukrainians are so easily confused.
But if there were friction, do you think that Patriarch Lubomyr and others would have hesitated to take the Latins to task. Ever hear of the Quadripartite commission?

 

[Hesychios]

Fair enough. I understand this point and agree. And it’s not just rules but actions that hurt us.

A Latin bishop, probably thinking nice thoughts about breathing with both lungs, decided to set up an EC church directly under him. The new parish was in direct competition with a small BC parish. Thanks, your grace, for your interest in Eastern Christianity. (It turns out that, after a setback, the BC parish is thriving.)

Are you referring to Denver?

Just wondering.

 

[SVP]

And we wonder why reunification with the Orthodox Church is so difficult?

Sadly, this will be the Italian version of Ea Semper and Cum Data Fuerit.

 

[dvdjs]

And we wonder why reunification with the Orthodox Church is so difficult?

Sadly, this will be the Italian version of Ea Semper and Cum Data Fuerit.

Except that it objectively isn’t.

 

[SVP]

Ok,

maybe as a metaphor…

 

[dvdjs]

Ok,

maybe as a metaphor…

I am curious about the reaction of the Romanian Greek Catholics to this? Do you know of major protests and threats of schism? Is there a bristling leadership?

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I’m sure many will love to make hay of this, but what makes one so sure that priests of the Reformation churches are not similarly marked in their ordinations?

Ah, well… not the point of the OP. Just a spurious charge I had difficulty letting slide. I did not sit in a liberal seminary, and I do not think I was taught any more untruth than a modern Roman seminarian sitting at the feet of the average Jesuit professor these days. The bishop who ordained me has a pedigree going back to St. Peter and St. John, though it passes through the Old Catholics… but as Lutherans, we make less of an issue of our Apostolic Sucession than many of our Roman brethren. I serve alongside those who have not had the advantage of an episcopal ordination according to the historic canons, but their ministry bears fruitful witness to the validity of their presbyterial ordination, none the less.

Perhaps we should be a bit more circumspect, before puking on our keyboards, and out into the ether.

Peace to all.

Amen sir!

The unfortunate musings of the former poster who equates all non-Catholic ministers as students of “liberation theology” and the like is, well, preposterous.

Liberation theology was developed, for the most part, by liberal Roman Catholic priests/theologians in Latin America.

Lutherans and others tend to be highly conservative in their faith and moral outlook by comparison. The Lutheran married ministers I know are devoted pastors of their flocks, who pray their Divine Office daily, read and meditate on the Bible, and participate fully in the sacramental life of their Churches.

I prefer them over the Roman Catholic liberation theologians/priests.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

really? how is the episcopal church doing these days? first, married priests. then, women priests. then, gay priests. these things go hand in hand. celibacy must be maintained!

Well, the Episcopal/Anglican churches have had married priests since the Reformation so your model doesn’t work since the latter two are a product of the modern, liberal age.

And, actually, Roman Catholics who are looking at the married priesthood issue are at a real disadvantage since they have no experience whatever with it (thus, the wild commentary about it).

My grandfather was a married EC priest and I have had 14 married priests on my grandmother’s side, all with doctorates in theology. I am related to several married Eastern Catholic priests - all of whom have children who are VERY conservative and who put their orthodox Catholic faith and practice first in their lives.

My grandmother was the one who set a great example for me and all of us in my extended family. She had seven children and as the wife of a priest, supported Fr. John in all of his undertakings. The women of the parish often came to her and not to my grandfather for advice.

My grandmother, Presbytera Irene, prayed for almost an hour morning and night. She said the rosary mid-morning, after her daily Mass and Communion, and then the Chaplet of the Holy Five Wounds of Jesus at three in the afternoon.

My grandfather prayed his breviary etc. - but my grandmother outstripped his rich prayer life, to be sure!

She would often check her husband’s sermon notes and would make suggestions, here and there about how to strengthen his points. Her father was a married priest who died young after over-exerting himself in the construction of his new church. Her mother, Alexandra, spent the rest of her life, in prayer and poverty, always giving away her pension to her grandchildren. I was named for her and I would like to, one day, go to Ukraine to buy a decent gravestone for her grave.

But getting back to my grandmother, she had a great devotion to the Most Holy Virgin Mary and kept a wooden icon of the Mother of God with her. It was very worn. When her children escaped soviet communism, she gave pieces of the wood of that icon to each, as a blessing and for them to remember to stay true to God nomatter what would befall them.

She survived several foreign occupations, including the Nazis and then the Soviets.

She also gave assistance to the anti-communist Underground, often at the peril of her life.

The Nazis tended to consider Ukrainians to be pro-Soviet. This is why they would take whole groups of Ukrainian villagers to the front as “cannon fodder” to allow the Soviets to empty their ammunition into these unarmed people.

When a group of these prisoners stood by my grandparents’ farm, my grandmother made stew and since the people had their hands tied, she fed them by dipping bread into the stew and putting each piece into their mouths, one by one. One of the Nazi officers saw this and then drew his Luger pistol, pointing to my grandmother’s head. His commanding officer grabbed his arm and said, “What are you doing? She is feeding her own people!”

Another time, now under the Soviets, my grandparents had a party in their home and two soviet officers from the village administration were present. One of them got so drunk that he started to have his soup with a fork. At this, one of the guests said, “Now sir . . .”

Since “sir” (“Pane”) was considered a bourgeois title and those using it to be counter-revolutionaries, the officer ordered everyone into the kitchen at that moment. He ordered them to stand facing the wall as he walked up and down their line with his unsheathed pistol (apparently about to shoot them in a game of Russian roulette).

My grandmother stood with her guests. The officer said, “Why are you standing there, Matushka? You didn’t do anything!”

At this, she replied, “These are my guests whom I have invited into my home. If they are to die, then I must die with them.”

The officer said, “I have a Matushka as loving as you back home in Moscow whom I miss very much.”

He and his colleague then left to go home, and no one was harmed.

To our Roman Catholic friends who think that a celibate priesthood is the only way to go or that celibacy best reflects Christ - PLEASE! Do not judge that with which you have no idea about! Married clergy is something that we have had from the time of Christ!

My one wish is that your celibate clergy be as long-suffering witnesses to Christ and His Catholic Church as my grandparents were!

Alex

 

[ciero]

Well, the Episcopal/Anglican churches have had married priests since the Reformation so your model doesn’t work since the latter two are a product of the modern, liberal age.

And, actually, Roman Catholics who are looking at the married priesthood issue are at a real disadvantage since they have no experience whatever with it (thus, the wild commentary about it).

My grandfather was a married EC priest and I have had 14 married priests on my grandmother’s side, all with doctorates in theology. I am related to several married Eastern Catholic priests - all of whom have children who are VERY conservative and who put their orthodox Catholic faith and practice first in their lives.

My grandmother was the one who set a great example for me and all of us in my extended family. She had seven children and as the wife of a priest, supported Fr. John in all of his undertakings. The women of the parish often came to her and not to my grandfather for advice.

My grandmother, Presbytera Irene, prayed for almost an hour morning and night. She said the rosary mid-morning, after her daily Mass and Communion, and then the Chaplet of the Holy Five Wounds of Jesus at three in the afternoon.

My grandfather prayed his breviary etc. - but my grandmother outstripped his rich prayer life, to be sure!

She would often check her husband’s sermon notes and would make suggestions, here and there about how to strengthen his points. Her father was a married priest who died young after over-exerting himself in the construction of his new church. Her mother, Alexandra, spent the rest of her life, in prayer and poverty, always giving away her pension to her grandchildren. I was named for her and I would like to, one day, go to Ukraine to buy a decent gravestone for her grave.

But getting back to my grandmother, she had a great devotion to the Most Holy Virgin Mary and kept a wooden icon of the Mother of God with her. It was very worn. When her children escaped soviet communism, she gave pieces of the wood of that icon to each, as a blessing and for them to remember to stay true to God nomatter what would befall them.

She survived several foreign occupations, including the Nazis and then the Soviets.

She also gave assistance to the anti-communist Underground, often at the peril of her life.

The Nazis tended to consider Ukrainians to be pro-Soviet. This is why they would take whole groups of Ukrainian villagers to the front as “cannon fodder” to allow the Soviets to empty their ammunition into these unarmed people.

When a group of these prisoners stood by my grandparents’ farm, my grandmother made stew and since the people had their hands tied, she fed them by dipping bread into the stew and putting each piece into their mouths, one by one. One of the Nazi officers saw this and then drew his Luger pistol, pointing to my grandmother’s head. His commanding officer grabbed his arm and said, “What are you doing? She is feeding her own people!”

Another time, now under the Soviets, my grandparents had a party in their home and two soviet officers from the village administration were present. One of them got so drunk that he started to have his soup with a fork. At this, one of the guests said, “Now sir . . .”

Since “sir” (“Pane”) was considered a bourgeois title and those using it to be counter-revolutionaries, the officer ordered everyone into the kitchen at that moment. He ordered them to stand facing the wall as he walked up and down their line with his unsheathed pistol (apparently about to shoot them in a game of Russian roulette).

My grandmother stood with her guests. The officer said, “Why are you standing there, Matushka? You didn’t do anything!”

At this, she replied, “These are my guests whom I have invited into my home. If they are to die, then I must die with them.”

The officer said, “I have a Matushka as loving as you back home in Moscow whom I miss very much.”

He and his colleague then left to go home, and no one was harmed.

To our Roman Catholic friends who think that a celibate priesthood is the only way to go or that celibacy best reflects Christ - PLEASE! Do not judge that with which you have no idea about! Married clergy is something that we have had from the time of Christ!

My one wish is that your celibate clergy be as long-suffering witnesses to Christ and His Catholic Church as my grandparents were!

Alex

Amen Alex, beautifully put as usual!

 

[Hesychios]

Well, the Episcopal/Anglican churches have had married priests since the Reformation so your model doesn’t work since the latter two are a product of the modern, liberal age.

And, actually, Roman Catholics who are looking at the married priesthood issue are at a real disadvantage since they have no experience whatever with it (thus, the wild commentary about it).

My grandfather was a married EC priest and I have had 14 married priests on my grandmother’s side, all with doctorates in theology. I am related to several married Eastern Catholic priests - all of whom have children who are VERY conservative and who put their orthodox Catholic faith and practice first in their lives.

My grandmother was the one who set a great example for me and all of us in my extended family. She had seven children and as the wife of a priest, supported Fr. John in all of his undertakings. The women of the parish often came to her and not to my grandfather for advice.

My grandmother, Presbytera Irene, prayed for almost an hour morning and night. She said the rosary mid-morning, after her daily Mass and Communion, and then the Chaplet of the Holy Five Wounds of Jesus at three in the afternoon.

My grandfather prayed his breviary etc. - but my grandmother outstripped his rich prayer life, to be sure!

She would often check her husband’s sermon notes and would make suggestions, here and there about how to strengthen his points. Her father was a married priest who died young after over-exerting himself in the construction of his new church. Her mother, Alexandra, spent the rest of her life, in prayer and poverty, always giving away her pension to her grandchildren. I was named for her and I would like to, one day, go to Ukraine to buy a decent gravestone for her grave.

But getting back to my grandmother, she had a great devotion to the Most Holy Virgin Mary and kept a wooden icon of the Mother of God with her. It was very worn. When her children escaped soviet communism, she gave pieces of the wood of that icon to each, as a blessing and for them to remember to stay true to God nomatter what would befall them.

She survived several foreign occupations, including the Nazis and then the Soviets.

She also gave assistance to the anti-communist Underground, often at the peril of her life.

The Nazis tended to consider Ukrainians to be pro-Soviet. This is why they would take whole groups of Ukrainian villagers to the front as “cannon fodder” to allow the Soviets to empty their ammunition into these unarmed people.

When a group of these prisoners stood by my grandparents’ farm, my grandmother made stew and since the people had their hands tied, she fed them by dipping bread into the stew and putting each piece into their mouths, one by one. One of the Nazi officers saw this and then drew his Luger pistol, pointing to my grandmother’s head. His commanding officer grabbed his arm and said, “What are you doing? She is feeding her own people!”

Another time, now under the Soviets, my grandparents had a party in their home and two soviet officers from the village administration were present. One of them got so drunk that he started to have his soup with a fork. At this, one of the guests said, “Now sir . . .”

Since “sir” (“Pane”) was considered a bourgeois title and those using it to be counter-revolutionaries, the officer ordered everyone into the kitchen at that moment. He ordered them to stand facing the wall as he walked up and down their line with his unsheathed pistol (apparently about to shoot them in a game of Russian roulette).

My grandmother stood with her guests. The officer said, “Why are you standing there, Matushka? You didn’t do anything!”

At this, she replied, “These are my guests whom I have invited into my home. If they are to die, then I must die with them.”

The officer said, “I have a Matushka as loving as you back home in Moscow whom I miss very much.”

He and his colleague then left to go home, and no one was harmed.

To our Roman Catholic friends who think that a celibate priesthood is the only way to go or that celibacy best reflects Christ - PLEASE! Do not judge that with which you have no idea about! Married clergy is something that we have had from the time of Christ!

My one wish is that your celibate clergy be as long-suffering witnesses to Christ and His Catholic Church as my grandparents were!

Alex

Thank you for this marvelous testimony friend!