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EnchantedEve
Guest
What is the liturgical language of the Italo-Greek rite?
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bpbasilphx
Guest
It’s Italo-Greek CHURCH, not rite.
Greek, Italian, Albanian, and in the country English.
I have seen two of their prayerbooks. One has parallel columns Greek and Italian, the other Greek and Greek transliterated into Italian phonetics (a helpless attempt).
There are, to my knowledge, two Italo-Greek (properly Italo-Albanian) parishes in this country.
One is in Las Vegas under the Ruthenian Eparchy of Van Nuys. The other is in New York, I think, under the Latin hierarch.
Greek, Italian, Albanian, and in the country English.
I have seen two of their prayerbooks. One has parallel columns Greek and Italian, the other Greek and Greek transliterated into Italian phonetics (a helpless attempt).
There are, to my knowledge, two Italo-Greek (properly Italo-Albanian) parishes in this country.
One is in Las Vegas under the Ruthenian Eparchy of Van Nuys. The other is in New York, I think, under the Latin hierarch.
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Hesychios
Guest
The particular church would be the Italo-Albanian church.
When southern Italy (including Sicily) was part of the East Roman empire the liturgical language was Greek. The inhabitants of southern Italy had been mostly Greeks deep into antiquity.
However after the Norman conquest these dioceses were transferred into the Latin rite and eventually the majority of the Greeks in Italy assimilated into the Italian language and culture.
The eastern (Byzantine rite) church in Italy today is primarily a result of the immigration of Albanian Orthodox after the death of Skanderbeg. The kingdom of Naples and Skanderbeg were close allies, and had supported each other in various military crises.
Skanderbeg and many of his nobles were granted estates in southern Italy. After Skanderbeg died the military resistance in Albania against the Turks collapsed and those who could make the journey across the straights (whether nobles or commoners, plus priests) did so.
Today many EC churches are using the vernacular. Since the Albanians normally used Greek in their liturgy that is probably what they used when they arrived in Italy. It would seem they either continue to use the traditional Greek (or even possibly Arbërisht, but I suppose not very likely) or modern Italian.
BTW, the monastery at Grotteferrata has a separate history, it was not an Albanian foundation (it precedes the Albanian immigration by 500 years), it is the last remaining active monastery in Italy of Greek origin (for a long time it’s liturgy was not correct, they may have used the Latin rite or some blended rite), I believe the monks are normally native Italians. From what I remember reading their liturgy is somewhat different from the Italo-Albanian liturgy, tracing back to a much earlier version used at Constantinople.
There is also an expanding UGCC presence in Italy. It’s liturgical language is very likely Ukrainian, but they may use old church Slavonic or even Italian.
There is also a growing Orthodox community in Italy, some use modern Italian.
When southern Italy (including Sicily) was part of the East Roman empire the liturgical language was Greek. The inhabitants of southern Italy had been mostly Greeks deep into antiquity.
However after the Norman conquest these dioceses were transferred into the Latin rite and eventually the majority of the Greeks in Italy assimilated into the Italian language and culture.
The eastern (Byzantine rite) church in Italy today is primarily a result of the immigration of Albanian Orthodox after the death of Skanderbeg. The kingdom of Naples and Skanderbeg were close allies, and had supported each other in various military crises.
Skanderbeg and many of his nobles were granted estates in southern Italy. After Skanderbeg died the military resistance in Albania against the Turks collapsed and those who could make the journey across the straights (whether nobles or commoners, plus priests) did so.
Today many EC churches are using the vernacular. Since the Albanians normally used Greek in their liturgy that is probably what they used when they arrived in Italy. It would seem they either continue to use the traditional Greek (or even possibly Arbërisht, but I suppose not very likely) or modern Italian.
BTW, the monastery at Grotteferrata has a separate history, it was not an Albanian foundation (it precedes the Albanian immigration by 500 years), it is the last remaining active monastery in Italy of Greek origin (for a long time it’s liturgy was not correct, they may have used the Latin rite or some blended rite), I believe the monks are normally native Italians. From what I remember reading their liturgy is somewhat different from the Italo-Albanian liturgy, tracing back to a much earlier version used at Constantinople.
There is also an expanding UGCC presence in Italy. It’s liturgical language is very likely Ukrainian, but they may use old church Slavonic or even Italian.
There is also a growing Orthodox community in Italy, some use modern Italian.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
\ they may have used the Latin rite or some blended rite), \
**FWIW, the Graeco-Slavic Liturgy of St. Peter is basically the Byzantine LIturgy with the Roman Canon, Embolism, and a few other prayers inserted.
Some say that this was some kind of academic exercise, but mss of it have the OLDEST form of Proskomedia in any Byzantine mss–even older than those of St. John Chrysostom.
And as late as the 1960’s, it was used by the Russian Old Ritualist community in Constantinople.**
**FWIW, the Graeco-Slavic Liturgy of St. Peter is basically the Byzantine LIturgy with the Roman Canon, Embolism, and a few other prayers inserted.
Some say that this was some kind of academic exercise, but mss of it have the OLDEST form of Proskomedia in any Byzantine mss–even older than those of St. John Chrysostom.
And as late as the 1960’s, it was used by the Russian Old Ritualist community in Constantinople.**
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EnchantedEve
Guest
I would think their liturgy would be called a rite, not a Church, not so?
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Aramis
Guest
No. Form seems to be the term in vogue with His Holiness Benedict XVI; recension is also used in some older uses.
If one is using Rite in the sense you are attempting to, they would have several rites; they don’t. One rite, several forms of liturgy.
The term Rite, in Roman Church usage, is either a transliturgical set of rubrics (Rite of Christian Initation, Rite of Marriage) which are applied to a variety of liturgical and paraliturgical services, or to collections of multiple liturgies and paraliturgical services sharing a single patrimony and Tradtion.
The Italo-greek Church lacks the patrimony, being part of the Byzantine patrimony and Greco-Byzantine Tradition (Thus one could legitimately speak of the Greco-Byzantine Rite, tho commonly that’s below the level where rite is used; occasionally sub-rite is used in this role; in the Aleandrian Patrimony, this level is often termed Rite, as in Ethiopian Rite, Coptic Rite, Eritrean Rite).
The Italo-greek form of the Greco-Byzantine Tradition of the Constanopolitan (Byzantine) Rite.
Note that, in theory, only the Roman Church has more than one Rite (patrimonial meaning), those being Roman, Ambrosian, Bragan, Dalmatian, Mozarabic, Dominican, Carmelite, Carthusian, and Anglican; the Gallican is suppressed still (since Trent).
If you are a Typical Roman Catholic of North America, you’ve likely experienced only the Roman Rite; only in a few places are the Carmelite, Dominican, and Carthusian rites used. Each such Rite is a collection of liturgies, propers, and a calendar, as well as all the attendant rubrics, and in the Dominican Rite, chant.
The Roman Rite has two Forms: The Extraordinary (aka TLM), and the Ordinary (aka Pauline Mass, or Novus Ordo; the later is discouraged by His Holiness). Note that the form is a complete collection of services. Some are the same except for language; others differ significantly.
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malphono
Guest
Let’s not forget the Carthusian Rite. There was also a Norbertine (O.Praem) Rite on the books, but I’m not sure of its official status.
In North America, I believe there is only one Charterhouse (in VT). The Dominican Rite still exists (at least in the Western Province) but the Carmelite Rite is (most unfortunately) in a world-wide coma.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
\
Note that, in theory, only the Roman Church has more than one Rite (patrimonial meaning), those being Roman, Ambrosian, Bragan, Dalmatian, Mozarabic, Dominican, Carmelite, Carthusian, and Anglican; the Gallican is suppressed still (since Trent).\
**Only the Ambrosian and Mozarabic are “rites” in the Latin Church.
Dominica, Carthusian, et al are properly “uses”.
By Dalmatian rite, do you mean the Latin rite celebrated in Slavonic, as was once done in some Croatian diocese before Vatican II?**
Note that, in theory, only the Roman Church has more than one Rite (patrimonial meaning), those being Roman, Ambrosian, Bragan, Dalmatian, Mozarabic, Dominican, Carmelite, Carthusian, and Anglican; the Gallican is suppressed still (since Trent).\
**Only the Ambrosian and Mozarabic are “rites” in the Latin Church.
Dominica, Carthusian, et al are properly “uses”.
By Dalmatian rite, do you mean the Latin rite celebrated in Slavonic, as was once done in some Croatian diocese before Vatican II?**
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Hesychios
Guest
This would be my understanding as well.
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EnchantedEve
Guest
Fascinating, I had no idea the Eastern Churches used rite in a different sense. So the Divine Liturgy or Holy Chrismation would not be called rites then, as in the Roman where we refer to the Baptism Rite as you say?
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malphono
Guest
I don’t believe that’s quite correct. See here where the Domincans themselves refer to the Dominican Rite.
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Aramis
Guest
The Dominicans I know still consider themselves a separate Rite. And considering the differences in the liturgies…
Now, all dominican priests and deacons ARE biritual: Roman and Dominican.
There is the Dominican Rite Mass (Latin only), and ALSO a Dominican Use of the Roman Mass (Dominican Propers but the Roman Missal of Paul VI).
Did I mention, I grew up in a Dominican-run parish? I’ve served at the Roman Mass, the Dominican Mass, and the Domincan Use Roman Mass. Each is different. (Tho’ unless you are reading the propers for daily mass, you’ll never notice the difference between the DURM and the RM.) The CDW approved the DU propers in 1976.
The Dominican rite has a prothesis (proskomedia equivalent).
I’d forgotton the Carthusian. The Norbertine hasn’t been on the books anywhere I’ve seen post-Trent.
Now, all dominican priests and deacons ARE biritual: Roman and Dominican.
There is the Dominican Rite Mass (Latin only), and ALSO a Dominican Use of the Roman Mass (Dominican Propers but the Roman Missal of Paul VI).
Did I mention, I grew up in a Dominican-run parish? I’ve served at the Roman Mass, the Dominican Mass, and the Domincan Use Roman Mass. Each is different. (Tho’ unless you are reading the propers for daily mass, you’ll never notice the difference between the DURM and the RM.) The CDW approved the DU propers in 1976.
The Dominican rite has a prothesis (proskomedia equivalent).
I’d forgotton the Carthusian. The Norbertine hasn’t been on the books anywhere I’ve seen post-Trent.
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malphono
Guest
So, too, BTW, does the Carmelite.
Actually, I made a typo: I mean Cistercian but I guess you figured that one out.
As for the O.Praem, the proper Rite wasn’t suppressed by Trent, but in the wake of Trent a General Chapter seems to have adopted the Ordinary from the Missal of Pius V. I suppose in theory it could be revived the same way (in General Chapter) but at this point in history such would be doubtful.
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Ora_et_Labora_1
Guest
Know where I might read up on the Dominican and Carmelite proskomedias?
So, too, BTW, does the Carmelite.
Actually, I made a typo: I mean Cistercian but I guess you figured that one out.
As for the O.Praem, the proper Rite wasn’t suppressed by Trent, but in the wake of Trent a General Chapter seems to have adopted the Ordinary from the Missal of Pius V. I suppose in theory it could be revived the same way (in General Chapter) but at this point in history such would be doubtful.
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malphono
Guest
For the Dominican Rite, try the link I mentioned in an earlier post.
I’ve seen a few liturgical comparisons which give some info about the rite of preparation in both, but I don’t have the links handy. Google should be of some help. Unfortunately, the Carmelite Rite is in a coma, so that one is purely academic for the time being.
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Ora_et_Labora_1
Guest
Thanks; I must have overlooked the link. The Carmelite Rite has been “abandoned”? I’ll try to refine my google search; my search for just “prothesis” didn’t yield much.
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