Italy mentioned in Hebrews....because of Peter?

[MarcoPolo]

I never realized that in Hebrews 13:24, Paul sends greetings on behalf of those “from Italy”.

Haydock didn’t have a comment on this that I saw. Is there anything about this passage as evidence of the centralization of Rome? Perhaps the greetings are from Peter and his circle?

 

[Verbum]

Hi MarcoPolo,

Paul spent the last years of his life in jail, in Rome. So it would seem he is sending the greetings of the people around him.

Verbum

 

[Subrosa]

Hi MarcoPolo,

Paul spent the last years of his life in jail, in Rome. So it would seem he is sending the greetings of the people around him.

Verbum

Verb -

It is generally accepted that Paul did not write this letter. Sorry, man.

No one knows the author.

Sub

 

[Fidelis]

Verb -

It is generally accepted that Paul did not write this letter. Sorry, man.

No one knows the author.

Sub

The question of the Pauline authorship of Hebrews is not quite that cut and dried. From Catholic Answers, an article written by the cheif editor of the Navarre Bible:

The letter to the Hebrews appears in the New Testament after the thirteen Pauline letters and before the seven catholic letters. Early tradition, in the main, attributed this text to Paul, but the western Church did not accept its Pauline authorship until the fourth century; and even in the east some (including Clement of Alexandria and Origen) had reservations about whether its literary style coincided with Paul’s.

Internal examination of the text does show that it is in many ways different from the rest of Paul’s writings. For example, it is more elegant, more eloquent, it does not carry the usual greeting and introduction, and it does not quote Scripture in the way Paul does. Its doctrine is Pauline but the way it is expounded makes it difficult to attribute its direct authorship to Paul. The letter’s canonicity is not in doubt; it was included in the canon by the Council of Trent (8 April 1546) among the other writings of Paul, although the Council chose not to state categorically that it was written by Paul.

The Pontifical Biblical Communion, in a decree issued on April 24, 1914, reaffirmed its canonicity. It answered the question, “Has the apostle Paul to be regarded as the author of this letter in the sense that not only must one hold that he conceived it and expressed it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but that he gave it the form in which it has come down to us?” Its reply was, “No, not unless the Church decides so in the future.” This is probably why there is no direct reference to Paul as author of this letter in recent liturgical books. However, Paul can be regarded as the indirect author of Hebrews. Researchers are free to explore this matter.

Some scholars think it may have been written by Barnabas or Silas, disciples of Paul; others suggest Apollos, an Alexandrian Jew noted for his eloquence (ct. Acts 18 24:28), in view of the way it quotes the Old Testament and its beautiful style and language. In any event, this is a secondary question which has nothing to do with matters of faith.
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9211ntg.asp

Since the question is not likely to be authoritatively decided, when I am discussing the Bible or leading Bible studies, I personally always refer to Paul as being the author. It makes it simpler for me and my listeners, and it annoys the modernists.

 

[Subrosa]

The question of the Pauline authorship of Hebrews is not quite that cut and dried. From Catholic Answers, an article written by the cheif editor of the Navarre Bible:
Since the question is not likely to be authoritatively decided, when I am discussing the Bible or leading Bible studies, I personally always refer to Paul as being the author. It makes it simpler for me and my listeners, and it annoys the modernists.

Fidelis -

I agree that there is dispute. My position is based on the introduction to the letter as published in the NAB. As stated:
usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/intro.htm

As early as the second century, this treatise, which is of great rhetorical power and force in its admonition to faithful pilgrimage under Christ’s leadership, bore the title “To the Hebrews.” It was assumed to be directed to Jewish Christians. Usually Hebrews was attached in Greek manuscripts to the collection of letters by Paul. Although no author is mentioned (for there is no address), a reference to Timothy (Hebrews 13:23) suggested connections to the circle of Paul and his assistants. Yet the exact audience, the author, and even whether Hebrews is a letter have long been disputed.
Certianly not to be dismissive or confrontational, but maybe you should reconsider telling the students that Paul was the author? At least not definitively. It will confuse them if they see something simlar to what I just posted.

Subrosa

 

[Subrosa]

AAARRGH! Stupid formatting! Hate the stupid formatting!

 

[pnewton]

AAARRGH! Stupid formatting! Hate the stupid formatting!

That would be indicative of Pauline posting of Petrine fonts.

I have often wondered if Hebrew might have been a joint effort and that is why it is unsigned. It is quite a different type of treatise than anything else in scripture. It might be an early form of a counciliar document.

 

[Fidelis]

Fidelis -

I agree that there is dispute. My position is based on the introduction to the letter as published in the NAB. As stated:
usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/intro.htm
Certianly not to be dismissive or confrontational, but maybe you should reconsider telling the students that Paul was the author? At least not definitively. It will confuse them if they see something simlar to what I just posted.

Subrosa

Of course I am never doctrinaire or insistent on it (in contrast to those who go into convulsions if you mention Paul and Hebrews in the same breath ). It is just my personal preference, based on the fact that there are equally compelling arguments for each side (and no authoritative definition) to refer to the author of Hebrews as Paul. Like I said, for the purposes of discussion and teaching, it is much less confusing for all involved. If the issue comes up, I explain the dispute, of course (especially since most parish-based Bible studies employ the NAB and are bound to run across those notes), but I also make clear we are all at liberty to refer to Paul as the author of Hebrews (or not) as we wish.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Thank you all for your replies. However, regardless of who actually penned Hebrews…does anyone know of a commentary that offers who those from “Italy” might be???

 

[vern_humphrey]

Paul, of course did not write the Epistles of Paul.

Now, before anyone has a heart attack, consider 1 Corinthians 16, 21, “I, Paul, write you this greeting with my own hand.” In other words, someone else wrote at Paul’s dictation, and Paul added a short section in his own hand.

Galatians 6, 11 “see what large letters I am writing to you in my own hand” – meaning Paul is not a practiced scribe, and his added words in his own hand are not so small and neat as the rest of the letter.

Colossians 4, 18, “The greeting is in my own hand, Paul’s.”

2 Thessalonians 3,17, “This greeting is in my own hand, Paul’s. This is the sign in every letter. This is how I write.”

Scribes often “cleaned up” letters dictated to then, inserted stock phrases, corrected grammar and so on. So someone else writing at Paul’s dictation would not be unusual, and that may have affected style and grammar.

 

[RNRobert]

Paul, of course did not write the Epistles of Paul.

Now, before anyone has a heart attack, consider 1 Corinthians 16, 21, “I, Paul, write you this greeting with my own hand.” In other words, someone else wrote at Paul’s dictation, and Paul added a short section in his own hand.

Galatians 6, 11 “see what large letters I am writing to you in my own hand” – meaning Paul is not a practiced scribe, and his added words in his own hand are not so small and neat as the rest of the letter.

Colossians 4, 18, “The greeting is in my own hand, Paul’s.”

2 Thessalonians 3,17, “This greeting is in my own hand, Paul’s. This is the sign in every letter. This is how I write.”

Scribes often “cleaned up” letters dictated to then, inserted stock phrases, corrected grammar and so on. So someone else writing at Paul’s dictation would not be unusual, and that may have affected style and grammar.

You forgot to mention Romans 16:22- “I Tertius, the writer of this letter, greet you in the Lord.”

 

[vern_humphrey]

You forgot to mention Romans 16:22- “I Tertius, the writer of this letter, greet you in the Lord.”

They say the memory is the second thing to go.

 

[RNRobert]

They say the memory is the second thing to go.

What’s the first, or did you forget that too?

Re the Romans quote, I remembered it because an Evangelical radio station was asking its listeners who the writer of Romans was, and it was a trick question.

 

[vern_humphrey]

What’s the first, or did you forget that too?

Hmmmm . . . I used to know the answer to that.

Re the Romans quote, I remembered it because an Evangelical radio station was asking its listeners who the writer of Romans was, and it was a trick question.

Here are two more:

Is there any part of the Bible that the Church does not consider inspired?

Was any part of the Bible written by Jesus?

 

[pnewton]

Is there any part of the Bible that the Church does not consider inspired?

I will venture a guess here. I Corinthians 7:12, Paul says that he is speaking, not the Lord.

The second question is harder. My only guess would be the original Ten Commandments.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I will venture a guess here. I Corinthians 7:12, Paul says that he is speaking, not the Lord.

The book of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) was written down by Sirach’s son, and translated into Greek by his grandson – Joshua, or Jesus. Jesus added a forword to his grandfather’s wisdom, which is not considered inspired.

Ironic, isn’t it?

 

[pnewton]

The book of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) was written down by Sirach’s son, and translated into Greek by his grandson – Joshua, or Jesus. Jesus added a forword to his grandfather’s wisdom, which is not considered inspired.

Ironic, isn’t it?

Great question! I guess you got me with name. But in my defense, I have only read Sirach once, being a convert.

 

[Subrosa]

I never realized that in Hebrews 13:24, Paul sends greetings on behalf of those “from Italy”.

Haydock didn’t have a comment on this that I saw. Is there anything about this passage as evidence of the centralization of Rome? Perhaps the greetings are from Peter and his circle?

Sorry, I don’t see any real indicators of who those “in Italy” are.

Sub

 

[colliric]

I never realized that in Hebrews 13:24, Paul sends greetings on behalf of those “from Italy”.

Haydock didn’t have a comment on this that I saw. Is there anything about this passage as evidence of the centralization of Rome? Perhaps the greetings are from Peter and his circle?

If it wasn’t written by Paul, that raises even greater questions about who exactly was sending greetings “from italy”, even if it was a scribe writing down what paul dictated.

If this letter was not from paul, and was not written by a second person writing down what Paul was dictating, would this not indicate beyond doubt that some of the other apostles made their way to Rome?

 

[Todd_Easton]

From A Commentary on the New Testament, published by the Catholic Biblical Association in 1942, page 605:
24. The brethren from Italy: Christians living in Italy. Those who hold that the Epistle was not written in Italy interpret the brethren as the Italian companions of the author, who were sending their greetings.

From A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, edited by Dom Bernard Orchard, published by Thomas Nelson & Sons in 1953, page 1171:
Those ‘from Italy’ are presumably in Italy, from where (probably Rome) the letter was written …