It's an awful reason for not getting engaged, but

[plinko]

If you recognize that your chosen morality is outside of Church teaching, that’s progress. Yes, I am aware.
If you imagine that’s just fine because others are like that - that’s not progress.No, I don’t think it’s fine. Again, I notice a discrepancy, but nobody has commented on it so far.

Wrong. You were not raised as a Buddhist.I don’t understand why it matters how I was raised. You told me to study Catholic teaching. You never said anything about being born into it. You said if I educated myself, I would understand. This says nothing about my upbringing.

However our experinces in childhood must not dictate our adult lives. But they do. You are who you are based on past experiences. People on this very forum are telling me “dump the man because I know what’s good for you! You don’t have to experience it yourself! Just listen to me!” You have no problem with them saying that, but somehow when I apply the same logic, it is different? I want my hypothetical kids to WANT to be in the Church, not FORCED.

Your sarcasm and condescension speak of your defensiveness and immaturity.Shouldn’t I defend my relationship? Does that not show you my commitment to my best friend, my ally, my relationship? And I was not the first to use sarcasm. If you go back and read this thread, you can see palpable sarcasm by writers other than myself.

I can only speak for myself; if you and your boyfriend have led each other AWAY from the Church, a Church and faith you own family treasues,we have not led eachother away from the church; in what ways do you think we have? then your relationship sounds very unhealthy - and un-holy. That you have given ALL of your young-adult years to him so far also suggests a lack of experience with dating and the morality involved with it.So shall I dump him and “experience” other men? I dated in high school too, and in college before I met him. The fact that I have only loved one man does not mean I am immature about relationships. In fact, I think my relationship with him is pure and beautiful. We have only been in love with eachother. Furthermore, how is my relationship immoral? We don’t live together, we don’t sleep together (yet…I’m still waiting), we see eachother once every 3-5 months, we are not dating other people on the side, we love eachother. I think I understand the morality of relationships. Maybe when you were 24, you had a harder time with it, but then, that would be you projecting your past experiences onto me

 

[catharina]

plinko:
You and your boyfriend seem to be at odds with the Church TOGETHER.
Yet your family (whom you love) treasure their Faith.
So how did you get to where you are now?

How odd to be at odds with Church teachings when both of you are Catholic. How odd to be at odds with your family to the extent that you “want” a Church wedding to placate them. Where has your Faith gone? Where has your boyfriend’s faith gone? You say you have something “special” with Jesus so you’re exempt from Church teaching?

 

[PatriceA]

OP, you have tried and tried to justify why you can’t be married in the Church and why people shouldn’t advise you against the path you are going down. You have yet to say why you should get married. What is it about this guy that you feel getting married is the right thing to do? What is so worthy about this relationship that you are debating so much, other than being together for seven years, and that you are willing to not do what you need to do to get married in the Catholic Church?

You asked to advice. Some of us didn’t sooth you and tell you what you are doing is ok. I’m not going to tell you its all okie dokie when it seems you’re headed for more trouble than its worth.

 

[plinko]

You and your boyfriend seem to be at odds with the Church TOGETHER.
Yet your family (whom you love) treasure their Faith.
So how did you get to where you are now?

How odd to be at odds with Church teachings when both of you are Catholic. How odd to be at odds with your family to the extent that you “want” a Church wedding to placate them. Where has your Faith gone? Where has your boyfriend’s faith gone? You say you have something “special” with Jesus so you’re exempt from Church teaching?

OP, you have tried and tried to justify why you can’t be married in the Church and why people shouldn’t advise you against the path you are going down. You have yet to say why you should get married. What is it about this guy that you feel getting married is the right thing to do? What is so worthy about this relationship that you are debating so much, other than being together for seven years, and that you are willing to not do what you need to do to get married in the Catholic Church?

You asked to advice. Some of us didn’t sooth you and tell you what you are doing is ok. I’m not going to tell you its all okie dokie when it seems you’re headed for more trouble than its worth.

I think I finally see where you guys are coming from. Correct me if I’m wrong please. It is better to not be with him/be single/try to align my beliefs with the Church than it is to enter a secular marriage without the Catholic Sacrament part. I understand where you are coming from, if that’s the case. My relationship with God should come above all else: my family, my friends, my boyfriend, and even myself.

You ask why I am “willing to not do what you need to do to get married in the Catholic Church?” Because that would be like me telling you to believe that the sky is orange in order to get married. While I believe in the major dogmas, I need time to grow in my faith about the little things.

You also ask what is it about this guy that makes me so unrelenting to give him up? If you are in a relationship yourself, what is it about your SO that makes him/her so irresistible to you? I could make a list of 1000 things I love about him; if you would like, I could do it, but it might take a while (my hands would cramp up )

Would God give me someone so compatible with me and then tell me I can’t be with him because I disagree with the Church’s stance on a small minority of issues? I do understand what you’re saying though, I think. I shouldn’t enter into a marriage not blessed by God, so until I figure things out, I need to maintain the relationship I have now and put off marriage.

 

[PatriceA]

I think I finally see where you guys are coming from. Correct me if I’m wrong please. It is better to not be with him/be single/try to align my beliefs with the Church than it is to enter a secular marriage without the Catholic Sacrament part. I understand where you are coming from, if that’s the case. My relationship with God should come above all else: my family, my friends, my boyfriend, and even myself.

You ask why I am “willing to not do what you need to do to get married in the Catholic Church?” Because that would be like me telling you to believe that the sky is orange in order to get married. While I believe in the major dogmas, I need time to grow in my faith about the little things.

You also ask what is it about this guy that makes me so unrelenting to give him up? If you are in a relationship yourself, what is it about your SO that makes him/her so irresistible to you? I could make a list of 1000 things I love about him; if you would like, I could do it, but it might take a while (my hands would cramp up )

Would God give me someone so compatible with me and then tell me I can’t be with him because I disagree with the Church’s stance on a small minority of issues? I do understand what you’re saying though, I think. I shouldn’t enter into a marriage not blessed by God, so until I figure things out, I need to maintain the relationship I have now and put off marriage.

Yay! I think we might be finally getting on the same page.

But I have to say, one of the most important things to me that makes my husband so irrestible is his faith and beliefs in the teachings of the Catholic Church. We live our faith together, and I wouldn’t want to attempt a marriage without that.

 

[catharina]

Would God give me someone so compatible with me and then tell me I can’t be with him because I disagree with the Church’s stance on a small minority of issues? I do understand what you’re saying though, I think. I shouldn’t enter into a marriage not blessed by God, so until I figure things out, I need to maintain the relationship I have now and put off marriage.

Does God ALLOW us to be tempted? Yes, of course.
The fact that both you and you bf stand united against Church teaching says it all.

A marriage between you at this time would be disastrous.
A marriage between you at any time might be disastrous.
That you and he support one another in error is disastrous.

If I were your mother, I’d be heartsick - and terrified for you.
Also I would NOT be too fond of him.

 

[plinko]

If I were your mother, I’d be heartsick - and terrified for you.
Also I would NOT be too fond of him.

See, this is the kind of stuff I’m talking about. I’m trying to have a civil conversation and not only do you neglect to address other points I have made in direct response to you, you say unwarranted, rude, uncharitable stuff like this.

You are NOT my mother, thank the LORD! My mother is truly proud of me for following my academic dreams, for handling the news of my infertility with dignity, for volunteering countless hours to my community, for maintaining my chastity… I’m sorry that I would be a disappointment to you if I were your daughter.

Also, you would not be fond of my boyfriend? LOVE THE SINNER, CATHARINA!

 

[catharina]

See, this is the kind of stuff I’m talking about. I’m trying to have a civil conversation and not only do you neglect to address other points I have made in direct response to you, you say unwarranted, rude, uncharitable stuff like this.

You are NOT my mother, thank the LORD! My mother is truly proud of me for following my academic dreams, for handling the news of my infertility with dignity, for volunteering countless hours to my community, for maintaining my chastity… I’m sorry that I would be a disappointment to you if I were your daughter.

Also, you would not be fond of my boyfriend? LOVE THE SINNER, CATHARINA!

Can’t imagine how I offended you.
Remember your initial post?

"It's an awful reason for not getting engaged, but... 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...I'm afraid of how my family will take it. Let me back up a little.

I love my boyfriend, and my boyfriend loves me. We've been dating for almost seven years, so marriage seems like the next logical step. However, at the present time, my beliefs are not in line with the church's and I worry that with the counseling beforehand, they will find out and refuse to marry us. **My family, especially the older members, is devoutly Catholic in every aspect. I am often criticized for being "too liberal" and "holding the devil in my heart". Therefore, if I don't get married in the church, I would ostracize myself more from my family.**

I can't get married in the church, and I can't NOT get married in the church. So that's why I've been stagnant in my relationship. What's a girl to do?"

Remember saying all of that?
I got my impressions of your family, your mother from YOU.
If your mother knows about your discord with Church Teaching,
about your boyfriend’s discord with Church teaching,
and if she is not heartsick about it
and scared to death FOR YOU,
then I wonder why you think you have a problem at all.

Learn to accept this fact:
people are getting their impressions from YOUR statements.
Responding to you in truth is NOT “unwarranted, rude, uncharitable stuff.”

Seeing such changes in you along with your bf, I would NOT be fond of him.
Right, love the sinner. Don’t invite him to marry my daughter.

You want to hear what you want to hear. OK. I get it.

 

[phil8888]

Let’s all try to remember Christian charity when speaking with one another.

 

[plinko]

This has digressed into a dialog between me and Catharina; hardly the open discussion I was hoping for. In any case, I received some good (name removed by moderator)ut. Engagement will have to wait more as I continue to grow in my faith and figure out what God wants me to do. I am thankful for all the comments, suggestions, and encouragement. Nobody is perfect, and I am glad that some people can see me for who I am (an unperfect, but learning, sinner) but still be accepting of me as a person and willing to lend an ear. I discussed this issue on the phone with my boyfriend just now and after a long discussion, we have agreed to discuss it more. I don’t want him moving to my city unless there is the promise of engagement/marriage, so we have a lot of soulsearching to do in the coming months. Thank you all for your ideas and contributions in the discussion!

 

[catharina]

This has digressed into a dialog between me and Catharina; hardly the open discussion I was hoping for. In any case, I received some good (name removed by moderator)ut. Engagement will have to wait more as I continue to grow in my faith and figure out what God wants me to do. I am thankful for all the comments, suggestions, and encouragement. Nobody is perfect, and I am glad that some people can see me for who I am (an unperfect, but learning, sinner) but still be accepting of me as a person and willing to lend an ear. I discussed this issue on the phone with my boyfriend just now and after a long discussion, we have agreed to discuss it more. I don’t want him moving to my city unless there is the promise of engagement/marriage, so we have a lot of soulsearching to do in the coming months. Thank you all for your ideas and contributions in the discussion!

I’m very relieved for you.

 

[PatriceA]

This has digressed into a dialog between me and Catharina; hardly the open discussion I was hoping for. In any case, I received some good (name removed by moderator)ut. Engagement will have to wait more as I continue to grow in my faith and figure out what God wants me to do. I am thankful for all the comments, suggestions, and encouragement. Nobody is perfect, and I am glad that some people can see me for who I am (an unperfect, but learning, sinner) but still be accepting of me as a person and willing to lend an ear. I discussed this issue on the phone with my boyfriend just now and after a long discussion, we have agreed to discuss it more. I don’t want him moving to my city unless there is the promise of engagement/marriage, so we have a lot of soulsearching to do in the coming months. Thank you all for your ideas and contributions in the discussion!

I would caution you in putting a condition of the promise of engagement/marriage for your boyfriend to move to your city. If you truly, deeply want to discover if you two are to be married, you have to both be free to do it without that kind of pressure of a promised outcome. You’ve basically told him it has to work or else. What if in this soul searching, either of you discover that you are not meant for each other? Or what if he feels he’s been trapped and not free to really discern you are the one for him? You have to trust the Lord at this point and let each of you discern without any ultimatiums.

 

[catharina]

I would caution you in putting a condition of the promise of engagement/marriage for your boyfriend to move to your city. If you truly, deeply want to discover if you two are to be married, you have to both be free to do it without that kind of pressure of a promised outcome. You’ve basically told him it has to work or else. What if in this soul searching, either of you discover that you are not meant for each other? Or what if he feels he’s been trapped and not free to really discern you are the one for him? You have to trust the Lord at this point and let each of you discern without any ultimatiums.

It might be that she feels it has to work or else. This young woman has given all of her young-adult years to this relationship. It could be time to step up with a plan - or break it off. The idea that he would move to her city is a very big deal - so if she wants him to be there with a promise, that’s hers to say.

Maybe she’s tired of the ‘unresolved.’ Maybe she wants commitment or a fresh start.

 

[choose_to_love]

plinko, I think your desire for integrity is laudable in this day and age. Remaining chaste in your relationship is in many ways remarkable in this day and age- - congrats!

In addition, I agree some people are coming off harsh in their posts. It’s so hard to convey tone on the internet. Maybe you could give some of them the benefit of the doubt, not so much in the message but in the tone you are imputing to them? I can get where they are coming from

That being said, you do not seem to have a real solid understanding of what marriage means in the RCC, in both little things (technically the bride and the groom are the ministers of the sacrament to each other, the priest is just a witness) and big things. Since you are investigating what it means to be married as a Catholic, have you read the “Good News about Sex and Marriage” by Christopher West? That book, along with the theology of the body in general, made a tremendous difference in my life and marriage, although I am still working on it. It would be, I suggest, a great read to go through together with your boyfriend as you mutually discern, and then discuss. “Hey, this is what the Church thinks about sex - - I never thought about it that way? What do think about ____?” It is largely in question and answer format, and you don’t necessarily have to read it from start to finish - - you could peek ahead to a chapter that addresses more directly some of the things that are on your mind, although later chapters do build on earlier ones.

 

[jmcrae]

I think I finally see where you guys are coming from. Correct me if I’m wrong please. It is better to not be with him/be single/try to align my beliefs with the Church than it is to enter a secular marriage without the Catholic Sacrament part. I understand where you are coming from, if that’s the case. My relationship with God should come above all else: my family, my friends, my boyfriend, and even myself.

Yes, exactly. There are so very few people who get to go to Heaven. We would like for you to be one of them. The fact that you came to us for advice gives us the hope that somewhere deep in your heart is a longing for Heaven. Your relationship with God is the most important thing you have.

It should be treasured - not thrown away for a man who doesn’t seem as if he is interested in helping you to get to Heaven- and in fact seems determined to do everything possible to keep you out of Heaven.

You ask why I am “willing to not do what you need to do to get married in the Catholic Church?” Because that would be like me telling you to believe that the sky is orange in order to get married. While I believe in the major dogmas, I need time to grow in my faith about the little things.

Then take that time. We are here for you. Open up new threads and ask about whatever is on your mind. We will do our best to answer you, and we will help you find the resources you need - books, web sites, and places you can go.

You also ask what is it about this guy that makes me so unrelenting to give him up? If you are in a relationship yourself, what is it about your SO that makes him/her so irresistible to you? I could make a list of 1000 things I love about him; if you would like, I could do it, but it might take a while (my hands would cramp up )

We have all been there - some of us were lucky enough to get out unscathed. When a man means more to you than life itself, that’s very dangerous territory - it messes with your mind, and causes you to do things that you regret later on.

Would God give me someone so compatible with me and then tell me I can’t be with him because I disagree with the Church’s stance on a small minority of issues?

The Church is the Body of Christ on earth, and it speaks with His voice. To disagree with the Church is the same thing as to disagree with God. It is one thing to say “I don’t understand why God teaches this, this, and this” but quite another to say, “I, a 24 year old girl, just out of school, have become so much more intelligent and well-informed than my Eternal Creator, and He is wrong about this, this, and this.”

I do understand what you’re saying though, I think. I shouldn’t enter into a marriage not blessed by God, so until I figure things out, I need to maintain the relationship I have now and put off marriage.

That seems very wise.

 

[Apryl]

If anyone knows this reference, we’re kind of like Cory and Topanga from Boy Meets World. They dated for 8 seasons and nobody questioned their relationship. It’s all a matter of circumstances.

I LOOOOOOVED that show!

But I really thought they were WAAAY too young to be ‘hooked up’, so I also thought that it was going to be a strain when they did marry.

(By that time, I wasn’t watching so much)

That’s a television show.

If YOU are ok with YOU dating for seven years, it really doesn’t matter who, or how many, have waited.It’s your choice.

I also believe that you don’t NEED to get married if that’s now what you want.

I only offered up that opinion about the length of the engagment because of the other challenges you are facing.

 

[Apryl]

I’m sorry, did you just compare your relationship to a made up relationship on a tv sitcom??

No matter how I say this, you’re probably going to take it hard, but you are not in a place yet to even be considering getting engaged if your prior posts are any indication. You have a lot of soul searching to do before you consider the next “logical” step. Instead of looking at how long you have dated, you should be looking at the quality of the relationship. If it was really the next logical step, it would be a no brainer, you would be doing all you could to make this work despite how hard you think its going to be to get married. You’d be walking through fire to make it happen.

Um… Ok… I agree with PatriceA.

Hmmm… here’s another ‘Old Woman’ take on things:

Have you dated any one other than this fiance? Are you planning to marry him because it’s what you’re SUPPOSED to do?

How well do you know YOURSELF? And how can you evaluate that if you haven’t dated others?

I think it’s good that you are currently long distance… but how will being married change your relationship?

Again, not for answers, but for your consideration.

 

[Apryl]

You see seven years and think I’m in a sham of a relationship.

Plinko…

Please calm down… but take a moment and pay attention to some of the things that are right in front of you.

1. You came to this forum for advice from people who don’t know you from a pimple on Mount Everest. We are giving you advice like people who don’t know you or the nuances of your situation.
2. People who don’t know each other from a pimple on Mt Everest have AGREED on some very important issues related to the scenario you painted for us.
3. People have offered advice which you have CHOSEN to be offended by, and you have reduced it all to, ‘you see seven years’… the Seven Years isn’t the problem. It’s just ONE of the issues that you have presented to people who are (ahem) older and wiser and have probably lived more than you have.

Some one (JMCRAE?) even suggested that you don’t have to make the same mistakes as others to learn from the mistakes.

Please don’t be offended. Please take the ‘advice’ with a grain of salt. Please don’t be so defensive of yourself or your situation.

Please?

I understand what it means to be 25 and ‘in love’… ok, I can almost remember that far back. You are not the only one in the world walking the path you are on.

Please let us help to guide you… just a bit. Please?

 

[Apryl]

Let’s all try to remember Christian charity when speaking with one another.

Just who was this directed towards? And what warranted this comment?

I’m asking because I, too, have been posting, and if I am guilty of not remembering Christian charity, I need to know when I was guilty.

 

[phil8888]

Just who was this directed towards? And what warranted this comment?

I’m asking because I, too, have been posting, and if I am guilty of not remembering Christian charity, I need to know when I was guilty.

I meant it as a general comment to everyone, including me. It just seemed like some of the discussion was getting personal and people were throwing around personal insults or reacting with anger. I remember Simeon Stylites. He spent like 40 years in a tower doing extreme austerities, but when someone went for advice, he was very gentle.