It's biblical to pray to the Saints and Mary

[thetruth0flife]

When Catholics pray to the Virgin Mary or the Saints all we’re doing is we’re asking them to pray for us just as we ask a Christian brother to pray for us. This type of prayer is nothing but a plea to them so they can pray for us just as when we Christians need someone to pray for us we ask the person closest to God to pray in our behalf.

For example: If I need someone to pray for a family member who has cancer, I will not ask a drug dealer selling drugs right around the corner. What I would do in this situation, is I would beg the holiest person who I know to pray for my family. The same concept applies to Mary since she is the closest individual to Jesus our God and savior. She gave birth to Jesus and raised him so her prayers or intercesion would be the most effective.

After all, James 5:16 says, 16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.

It is also biblical to intercede for one another and so can the saints that live in heaven:

• 1 I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf*, and give thanks for them. 2 Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth. 5

Passage 1 Timothy 2 :1-5

18 Pray in the Spirit at all times and on every occasion. Stay alert and be persistent in your prayers for all believers everywhere

Passage Ephesians 6 :18

The prayer of a righteous man has great power as long as you persevere.There is a misunderstanding between protestants and Catholics on the phrase "pray to Mary or pray to St Thomas etc.Protestants take those phrases literally as if we Catholics pray to Mary or the Saints directly and waiting for them to answer our pleas directly …

It is easier to say “I will pray to Mary”, than to say “I will ask Mary to pray to God for you” …

We are used to using short and easy sentences when talking and that is the reason why sometimes people misunderstand them or take them wrong. People slang a lot or are too lazy to use complete sentences that are clear.

Despite these expressions, the prayers of the Catholic Church are theologically correct. For example, we say the Hail Mary as "Hail Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the time of our death …

And in saying the ‘I confess’ I ask Mary ever virgin, angels and saints, and you brothers,to pray for me before God, our Lord.

Another difference between protestants and Catholics is the way we remember those Christians who have died. Protestants believe that when someone dies they are out of this world and beyond our prayers. That is false because just because they live in heaven it doesn’t mean that they cant help us. We dont have a telephone to communicate with them in heaven because obiously there are no telephones or cell phones in heaven. The only efective way to comunicate with them or for them to hear us is by praying.
Although protestants believe in the Body of Christ they believe that this belongs only to Christians living. For them, the Christians who have died go to heaven or hell and they are not connected, affected or interested in events of this world.But for Catholics, all Christians living and dead are still part of the Body of God. So we are all connected. Catholics continue to love them, and continue to pray for one another as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Therefore, intermediaries prayers continue through the power of God, among the members of the Body of Christ, because we all live in Jesus Christ our savior and King of Kings.

 

[Cachonga]

Of course, the verses raised say nothing about people who have passed from this life into heaven, and there is no instance in Scripture (that I’m aware of) were anyone is instructed to ask someone who has gone on before to intercede on our behalf. While it’s true that believers in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ, they are most certainly in a different place, and we have no direct line of communication with them. In fact, Scripture describes these people as being asleep. How do you ask a sleeping person for prayer, especially someone who lives in a differnt location than you? Did Paul ever instruct anyone to pray to St Steven (whom he had helped to martyr)? I’d like to see some verse in Scripture that says we can communicate with those in heaven (other than God, of course). Until you can come up with such a verse, I would say that it is NOT Biblical to pray to the Saints and Mary!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Of course, the verses raised say nothing about people who have passed from this life into heaven, and there is no instance in Scripture (that I’m aware of) were anyone is instructed to ask someone who has gone on before to intercede on our behalf. While it’s true that believers in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ, they are most certainly in a different place, and we have no direct line of communication with them. In fact, Scripture describes these people as being asleep. How do you ask a sleeping person for prayer, especially someone who lives in a differnt location than you? Did Paul ever instruct anyone to pray to St Steven (whom he had helped to martyr)? I’d like to see some verse in Scripture that says we can communicate with those in heaven (other than God, of course). Until you can come up with such a verse, I would say that it is NOT Biblical to pray to the Saints and Mary!

Could you please provide verses which prohibit us from talking with the Saints and asking them to pray for us?

There aren’t any, are there? :nope:

Praying to Saints and the Communion of Saints Proved from Scripture

1. Every Christian is a member of the Body of Christ

“Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.” (Romans 12:4-5)

“The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.” (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)

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And we are joined with Christ through baptism

“having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12)

“We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” (Romans 6:4)

“for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” (Galatians 3:27)

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2. All Christians are connected through the Body of Christ

“If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.”(1 Corinthians 12:26)

“If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you” (2 Corinthians 2:5)

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3. Physical death does not separate us from the Body of Christ

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:38-39)

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4. There is only one Body of Christ in Heaven and on Earth

“by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.” (Ephesians 2:15-16)

“There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-5)

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5. The Church is the Body of Christ

“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” (Ephesians 1:22-23)

“And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy” (Colossians 1:18)

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6. Just as we can pray for one another, we can suffer for one another because we are all connected in Christ

“Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Colossians 1:24)

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7. If you can ask a member of the Body of Christ on earth to pray for you, then you can also ask someone who is a member of that same Body of Christ in heaven to do the same for they are not “dead” at all.

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“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." (Luke 20:38)

 

[Cat_Herder]

Of course, the verses raised say nothing about people who have passed from this life into heaven, and there is no instance in Scripture (that I’m aware of) were anyone is instructed to ask someone who has gone on before to intercede on our behalf. While it’s true that believers in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ, they are most certainly in a different place, and we have no direct line of communication with them. In fact, Scripture describes these people as being asleep. How do you ask a sleeping person for prayer, especially someone who lives in a differnt location than you? Did Paul ever instruct anyone to pray to St Steven (whom he had helped to martyr)? I’d like to see some verse in Scripture that says we can communicate with those in heaven (other than God, of course). Until you can come up with such a verse, I would say that it is NOT Biblical to pray to the Saints and Mary!

Is it biblical to communicate with angels?

According to Jesus, is there any difference between a saint and an angel?

Here are the answers.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Of course, the verses raised say nothing about people who have passed from this life into heaven, and there is no instance in Scripture (that I’m aware of) were anyone is instructed to ask someone who has gone on before to intercede on our behalf. While it’s true that believers in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ, they are most certainly in a different place, and we have no direct line of communication with them. In fact, Scripture describes these people as being asleep. How do you ask a sleeping person for prayer, especially someone who lives in a differnt location than you? Did Paul ever instruct anyone to pray to St Steven (whom he had helped to martyr)? I’d like to see some verse in Scripture that says we can communicate with those in heaven (other than God, of course). Until you can come up with such a verse, I would say that it is NOT Biblical to pray to the Saints and Mary!

The Saints Can Hear Our Prayers Proved From Scripture

1. Jesus teaches from the Old Testament

“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)

In this teaching, Jesus tells us plainly that the Father is the God of the living.

2. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by parable

"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”(Luke 16:19-31)

In this parable, Jesus has two of the “dead” characters in his story talking with one another, and one of the “dead” men intercedes on behalf of his living relatives.

3. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by personal example

“After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.” (Matthew 17:1-3)

At the transfiguration, Jesus was talking with two “dead” people, Moses and Elijah. They’re actually alive, though.

4. Speaking to the dead – Peter teaches by example

“Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive.” (Acts 9:40-41)

5. Those in Heaven Hear Our Prayers - John teaches through prophetic revelation

“He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:7-8)

The 24 elders in heaven are men, and notice that they each have a golden bowl full of the prayers of the saints. That’s us since we’re all saints! So, how did they get hold of our prayers in order to offer them to God?

“Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.” (Revelation 8:3)

Here, an angel also offers our prayers along with incense.

 

[JRKH]

Of course, the verses raised say nothing about people who have passed from this life into heaven, and there is no instance in Scripture (that I’m aware of) were anyone is instructed to ask someone who has gone on before to intercede on our behalf.

This is true. Scripture is silent as to any specific distinction in these verses. So the question becomes how one of interpreting the passages in Scripture.

While it’s true that believers in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ, they are most certainly in a different place, and we have no direct line of communication with them. In fact, Scripture describes these people as being asleep. How do you ask a sleeping person for prayer, especially someone who lives in a differnt location than you?

When these things come up I’m always reminded of two things. First is Christ’s statemnt that ours is a God of the Living, not of the dead". Do living souls in heaven require sleep?Second is the Transfiguration which clearly states that Moses and Elijah were “talking with Him” (Mt 17:3) So were Moses and Elijah talking in their sleep?
As to the assertion that we have not direct line of communciation I know of no biblical passage saying that we do not.

Did Paul ever instruct anyone to pray to St Steven (whom he had helped to martyr)? I’d like to see some verse in Scripture that says we can communicate with those in heaven (other than God, of course). Until you can come up with such a verse, I would say that it is NOT Biblical to pray to the Saints and Mary!

As I said earlier. Scripture is silent of any direct statement on the matter and positions are taken for or against on the “interpretation” of the available biblical passages.
However, given the long history of ecclesial belief in intercession and miracles associated with said intercessions, I believe that the evidence comes down in favor of intercessory prayer rather than against it.

Peace
James

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Of course, the verses raised say nothing about people who have passed from this life into heaven, and there is no instance in Scripture (that I’m aware of) were anyone is instructed to ask someone who has gone on before to intercede on our behalf. While it’s true that believers in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ, they are most certainly in a different place, and we have no direct line of communication with them. In fact, Scripture describes these people as being asleep. How do you ask a sleeping person for prayer, especially someone who lives in a differnt location than you? Did Paul ever instruct anyone to pray to St Steven (whom he had helped to martyr)? I’d like to see some verse in Scripture that says we can communicate with those in heaven (other than God, of course). Until you can come up with such a verse, I would say that it is NOT Biblical to pray to the Saints and Mary!

I will give you first Revelation 5:6-8

6 Then I saw standing in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures and the elders, a Lamb 4 that seemed to have been slain. He had seven horns and seven eyes; these are the (seven) spirits of God sent out into the whole world.
7 He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne.
8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. **Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. **

Then next although you will more than likly deny it as scripture I present Tobit.

Tobit 12: 12-15

12 I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was **I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead. **13 When you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner in order to go and bury the dead,
14 I was sent to put you to the test. At the same time, however, God commissioned me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah.
15 **I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord." **

These along with what others have give show that the Angles and Saints in haven ( or what one could call the Church Triumphant) take our prayers before the Throne and present them to God

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Of course, the verses raised say nothing about people who have passed from this life into heaven, and there is no instance in Scripture (that I’m aware of) were anyone is instructed to ask someone who has gone on before to intercede on our behalf. While it’s true that believers in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ, they are most certainly in a different place, and we have no direct line of communication with them. In fact, Scripture describes these people as being asleep. How do you ask a sleeping person for prayer, especially someone who lives in a differnt location than you? Did Paul ever instruct anyone to pray to St Steven (whom he had helped to martyr)? I’d like to see some verse in Scripture that says we can communicate with those in heaven (other than God, of course). Until you can come up with such a verse, I would say that it is NOT Biblical to pray to the Saints and Mary!

I’m not sure that we have to show you any such thing. Rather, I think you must show that when Paul asks different members of the body of Christ to pray for each other, that he really means a divided Body before and after death that isn’t really as intimately united as he spends a good chunk of Corinthians explaining. If we can be so close to Christ and His body, but not other members of the same body, it seems that your theology completely destroys the mystic bond Paul has made so clear. Then you would have to make the assumption that Paul meant a divided Body of Christ after he makes clear in Hebrews 11-12 that the OT saints are “witnessing” our running of a race, drawing on Hellenistic footrace imagery of heaven cheering us on like the athletic games. Take into account that many scholars have determined that Paul, indeed, is asking people to pray for the dead Onesiphorous, and the passages in Revelation, and Catholics have a potent case.

The dead are “asleep?” Revelation says otherwise, and Paul himself states otherwise. Are you so certain that Paul is not referring to the body as being asleep rather than meaning the spirit since the Resurrection of the Body had not yet happened? Christ himself is in heaven, and yet continually intercedes for us on earth. Is the slave better than his master? Are saints truly with Christ and yet chilling on the couch while Jesus does all the work? Does their intercessory prayer end upon this false notion of “death” you have created? What is your rationale behind this “divide?” Based on what? How can they be witnessing us according to Paul, and yet “be somewhere else?” How can you know that they go to be with Christ, know Christ is watching over us and praying for us, and yet also assume that they are not as well? Does their love and means to help us through Christ end upon death of the body?

The proof positive that you asked for has already been given. Paul developed the theology of the One Body of Christ; He asked us to pray for each other. You, my friend, are the one inserting a presupposition that does not exist: a division in the One Body, that apparently can’t be passed by prayer. Your room analogy fails, because even if I am in a different room I can still pray for you. Paul explicitly denies as such anyway, when he speaks of us as being “alive” in Christ, and as there being no death in Christ. The Catholic position merely takes Paul at his word, with less assumptions. Communion of the Saints is a natural extension of Pauline theology, and Paul himself hints at it. Considering that his letters are not meant to be exhaustive encyclopedias of doctrine, I’m amazed he took the time to use such imagery at all.

 

[beth40n2]

Lots of scriptures and quotes form early church fathers regarding prayer to the saints.

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html#saints-V

 

[melchesidechpio]

Finally people who understand what it means to pray to the Saints and Mary. The Communion of Saints. The intercession of the Saints. What is so hard for Protestants to understand this, since they claim to know scripture more than Catholics.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Interesting thread…I’ll just stick with the example of Jesus having direct access to the Father…We may boldy approach the throne since the veil was torn from Christ’s finished work…It has worked well these first 40 years…He is our intercessor and high priest…You can’t go wrong going straight to Abba Father…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Interesting thread…I’ll just stick with the example of Jesus having direct access to the Father…We may boldy approach the throne since the veil was torn from Christ’s finished work…It has worked well these first 40 years…He is our intercessor and high priest…You can’t go wrong going straight to Abba Father…

Nope.

But you also can’t go wrong asking other people to pray for you…even if those people happen to be in heaven already!

One other thought, the scriptures are CHOCK full of God using angels and saints to speak to us…and He has direct access to us whenever He wants. It works the same way when we initiate the communication, too.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Nope.

But you also can’t go wrong asking other people to pray for you…even if those people happen to be in heaven already!

Just curious how that works…how does the request get to the individual…I know there are a great cloud of witnesses, but how to they hear/get the requests? I know the Holy Trinity knows what’s going on…Does the Holy Spirit deliver prayers to them?

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Interesting thread…I’ll just stick with the example of Jesus having direct access to the Father…We may boldy approach the throne since the veil was torn from Christ’s finished work…It has worked well these first 40 years…He is our intercessor and high priest…You can’t go wrong going straight to Abba Father…

We are called to his intercessorship. The logical extension is to never ask anyone on earth to pray for you either, since you don’t need their intercession to approach boldly, and yet Scripture states we are to do otherwise. I would argue, in fact, that since Paul makes no distinction of death, and in fact implies the exact opposite, we actually have a Scriptural madate to ask for the prayers of the saints, whether on heaven or earth.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Just curious how that works…how does the request get to the individual…I know there are a great cloud of witnesses, but how to they hear/get the requests? I know the Holy Trinity knows what’s going on…Does the Holy Spirit deliver prayers to them?

Some concepts are relegated to the domain of mystery, but I believe there are hints in Scripture that attest to your idea. The Holy Spirit intercedes for us because we do not know how to pray as we ought. Given that the very nature of the Cross was to invite us into the Divine Love of the Trinity, it makes sense that the Holy Spirit does so from heaven to earth as well, except that now it is with the saints rather than in spite of them. Sin, concupiscence, etc are no longer a factor in hindering prayer, and their communion with God is made perfect, even as all that they are comes from God.

 

[Hiskid1973]

We are called to his intercessorship. The logical extension is to never ask anyone on earth to pray for you either, since you don’t need their intercession to approach boldly, and yet Scripture states we are to do otherwise. I would argue, in fact, that since Paul makes no distinction of death, and in fact implies the exact opposite, we actually have a Scriptural madate to ask for the prayers of the saints, whether on heaven or earth.

We see a mandate to pray for one another…I have no issue with that… those who have gone on are in to Christ care till judgment…Are those gone on omnipotentt/omnipresent to the living world…

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

We see a mandate to pray for one another…I have no issue with that… those who have gone on are in to Christ care till judgment…Are those gone on omnipotentt/omnipresent to the living world…

Of course not. Their wills are made perfect, however, and perfectly united to God’s, so I would say their prayers are made perfect as well. I’m not certain why such a common argument against saints is the necessity of omnipotence, given that they have an infinite time to respond to a finite number of intercessions. Eternity and temporal timelines needn’t be confused.

The bottom line is, Christianity is an inclusive faith. God created us to share in His love, or we would not have been created at all. Going “directly to Him” isn’t the point. It never was. Because what happens when we do? He asks us to pray for one another. We love the saints,so we pray for them. They love us, so they pray for us. We do this because we love God. We love the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. We love the Son’s One Body. Prayer and love all around, and it would happen even if you didn’t ask for it, because they are perfected and do it anyway. We are told to do it because it teaches us on earth to love as we will in heaven.

 

[JRKH]

We see a mandate to pray for one another…I have no issue with that… those who have gone on are in to Christ care till judgment…Are those gone on omnipotentt/omnipresent to the living world…

Those who are in the presence of the beatific vision, who stand before God, Are completely conformed to His Will. They share within that conformity God’s total Love for those whom they Loved, in a special way, on Earth. These bonds of Love between the saints in heaven and those still on earth are not severed but are strengthened by their presence before the throne.
It is by this Love, God’s Love that the Church Triumphant remains an integral part of The Church body as a whole, just as we remain a part of the body by our Love for one another. Words like omnipotent or omnipresent may represent this link to an extent, but they may also limit or confuse the true link which is Love.
If I call upon a saint a Loved one of Christ, Present before the throne, I call upon the Love that is there present. They answer in that same Love. Does this weaken or interfere with Christ’s intercessory role? Not at all for it all stems from and is connected to the same source which is the very essence of God. LOVE…

If one wishes to try and equate this to some form of interhuman communication, I would liken it to a group of Ham Radio Operators. Anyone on the right bandwith can hear and respond to anyone else. There is no “exlcusivity”.
This forum is another example. So long as we are on this website, what we post in the forums can be seen and read by anyone.

The Bandwidth in Heaven, the “Website” password for the heavenly host is Love.

Scrupture is a wonderful thing. Please don’t use it to limit God’s great Glory or the great prayers and works of His Saints.

Peace
James

 

[Hiskid1973]

1. 
   Scrupture is a wonderful thing. Please don’t use it to limit God’s great Glory or the great prayers and works of His Saints.
   
   Peace
   James

1. 
   The scriptures limit God’s glory ???
   But I do just have just the sacred scriptures as my sole source for His will in my life…I do believe it contains all I need to respond to His gospel message and all I need to know His will
   for my life. If He faults me for just following scripture to conform to His will so be it but I doubt it…I think heaven will be full of saints who used His word as a lamp and light to their lives. I think it pretty safe to trust the original apostles writings…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Just curious how that works…how does the request get to the individual…I know there are a great cloud of witnesses, but how to they hear/get the requests? I know the Holy Trinity knows what’s going on…Does the Holy Spirit deliver prayers to them?

Dunno. Perhaps the angels (who are ministering servants) deliver the prayers to the saints. Perhaps God grants them the ability to hear prayers addressed to them.