It's no longer enough

[Della]

It’s true, no one can predict the future or how the tide might change due to unforeseen circumstances. But one can observe trends and see which way they are headed.

Carle Zimmerman back in the 1940’s did a study of family structure over the course of history, and wrote a book about it, “Family and Civilization.” His observation was that periods of serious family deconstruction were followed by civilizational decline. He noted such eras at the peak of Greek civilization, at the turning point of Roman civilization, and said that the third such period of family and civilizational decline was now underway in Western civilization.

G. K. Chesterton also wrote that the family is the basis of civilization that predates Judaism, Christianity, and all other religions since God created Adam and Eve as the first parents of the first family. Civilizations that destroy that model end up destroying themselves.
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Pope Paul VI in his encyclical Humanae Vitae, predicted many particular social ills that would flow from the widespread acceptance of contraception. Every one of those predictions was fulfilled in spades with the sexual revolution. So while the future cannot be predicted, trends can often be discerned.

Indeed they can. Sadly, most people in the West have their heads too buried in their “personal freedoms” to see the havoc that attitude is having on our culture.

Christians often have a sort of fatalistic outlook which is presented as belief in Divine providence. So, for example, we watch benignly as contraception ushers in the sexual revolution, leading to promiscuity, adultery, fornication, single mothers, broken families, deprived children, same sex marriage. We observe as humans are re-designated from being men and women to innumerable gender identities. We watch while religious freedom is gradually undermined. “Not to worry,” we say, “God is in charge, and he has a plan; he has the situation well in hand.” Which seems rather a cop out releasing Christians from any responsibility to work to restore the culture.

Yes, which is why we are responsible before God for our generation. If we just sit on our hands and allow such things to fester we have no one to blame but ourselves. God can indeed bring good out of evil, but it is still up to us to combat that evil to the best of our abilities.

 

[Jeff415]

Of course that’s how you and most others on that side see it. But you didn’t lose because you didn’t show up, or there wasn’t a fight. There was a fight, and it’s still going on. But the odds of winning it were against you from the start. Demographically, America is changing. It’s rapidly becoming younger, more ethnically and religiously diverse, and more educated. As those numbers tilt, it’s harder and harder for conservative policies to take hold.

Speaking as a fellow millennial, I think you are right to a degree, but I see things differently. I believe the reason the conservative movement lost and is bound to lose, is because it sold it’s soul. One of the things that the massive exchange of ideas, cultures, and religion has brought to our generation is a healthy skepticism and a desire for intellectual consistency. When we started to grow up and wonder what was true and what was right, all you had to do was look around and see who was spewing B.S. the loudest. “I’m louder than you, so I must be right” Republican hosts of radio and television dominated the 90’s and early 00’s. On the other side of the argument, you had comedians - people like Jon Stewart who were funny, likable, and argued based on facts (or at least attempted to). There was never a question where this generation was headed politically once the internet opened up the availability of facts and information.

So, to my point - I believe the reason the conservative movement is losing and will lose in this country, is because Christians in America confused Christianity and Republicanism. The party of Reagan is not the religion of Jesus Christ. Time and time again, our generation has seen the intellectual dishonesty of the Republican party (which is now indistinguishable from the “Christian” conservatism movement). Positions like pro-life, pro-death penalty, pro-war instead of an intellectually consistent pro-life platform. Embracing Ayn Rand’s cold view toward those with less than themselves rather than taking a compassionate approach toward those less fortunate and different from us as Christ demanded. Just a couple examples.

The reason that the conservative movement lost the culture war isn’t because they were too Christian, it’s because they weren’t Christian enough. They traded a beautiful religion full of truth for a pseudo religion full of ridiculous inconsistencies for political expediency.

 

[Della]

Speaking as a fellow millennial, I think you are right to a degree, but I see things differently. I believe the reason the conservative movement lost and is bound to lose, is because it sold it’s soul. One of the things that the massive exchange of ideas, cultures, and religion has brought to our generation is a healthy skepticism and a desire for intellectual consistency. When we started to grow up and wonder what was true and what was right, all you had to do was look around and see who was spewing B.S. the loudest. “I’m louder than you, so I must be right” Republican hosts of radio and television dominated the 90’s and early 00’s. On the other side of the argument, you had comedians - people like Jon Stewart who were funny, likable, and argued based on facts (or at least attempted to). There was never a question where this generation was headed politically once the internet opened up the availability of facts and information.

So, to my point - I believe the reason the conservative movement is losing and will lose in this country, is because Christians in America confused Christianity and Republicanism. The party of Reagan is not the religion of Jesus Christ. Time and time again, our generation has seen the intellectual dishonesty of the Republican party (which is now indistinguishable from the “Christian” conservatism movement). Positions like pro-life, pro-death penalty, pro-war instead of an intellectually consistent pro-life platform. Embracing Ayn Rand’s cold view toward those with less than themselves rather than taking a compassionate approach toward those less fortunate and different from us as Christ demanded. Just a couple examples.

The reason that the conservative movement lost the culture war isn’t because they were too Christian, it’s because they weren’t Christian enough. They traded a beautiful religion full of truth for a pseudo religion full of ridiculous inconsistencies for political expediency.

I agree that being Republican is not the same thing as being Christian, but the Democrats have gone far away from basic Christian values that keep families intact and our young people morally sound. Welfare is not the same thing as proper social justice. Indeed, it’s the exact opposite of it.

And there is noting inconsistent with being pro-life and also for the death penalty or waging a just war. The Church is not pacifist. The death penalty is not intrinsically evil, nor is waging a just war. There is no Church approved “seamless garment” idea that embraces withholding proper punishment of heinous crimes nor of letting ourselves be bombed into submission by terrorists lest we kill some of them. Show me in the catechism where we are to embrace these ideas.

Making sin popular is not an excuse for anyone to embrace it. Jon Stewart may have been funny to many, but his humor consisted of cheap shots that easily amuse the uninformed and children. He promoted the excesses of the sexual revolution while reviling anyone who stood for decency. I found him neither funny nor convincing. Any good, well informed Catholic could easily win a true debate against him. But the left doesn’t do that kind of straightforward debate because they know they’d lose. Rather, they make fun of good people doing the right things, smear those they disagree with, and make it seem that being licentious is the cool thing to be.

Many cultures went down this road before us and destroyed themselves. It’s no consolation to say we’re doing it through the medium of laughter and derision.

 

[Jeff415]

I agree that being Republican is not the same thing as being Christian, but the Democrats have gone far away from basic Christian values that keep families intact and our young people morally sound. Welfare is not the same thing as proper social justice. Indeed, it’s the exact opposite of it.

Republicans have also strayed very far from Christianity. I also do not believe that welfare is social justice. I am referring to the attitudes of many outspoken Republicans, not specific public policy choices.

And there is noting inconsistent with being pro-life and also for the death penalty or waging a just war. The Church is not pacifist. The death penalty is not intrinsically evil, nor is waging a just war. There is no Church approved “seamless garment” idea that embraces withholding proper punishment of heinous crimes nor of letting ourselves be bombed into submission by terrorists lest we kill some of them. Show me in the catechism where we are to embrace these ideas.

Here we disagree. I believe there is absolutely something inconsistent with being pro-life and for the death penalty. The Catholic world outside of American political influence is absolutely opposed to the death penalty. The Popes have spoke out against it, the Bishops have spoken out against it. The Catholic Catechism allows for the death penalty only in situations where it is the only way to defend the lives of other human beings against the aggressor.[CCC 2267] What % of people on death row in the US are killed because we don’t have any other reasonable way to keep them from killing again? Maybe 0.01%? As far as just wars - that is fine. I would challenge you to consider just war theory in the catechism [CCC 2309] and see just how many engagements would be supported under those conditions.

Making sin popular is not an excuse for anyone to embrace it. Jon Stewart may have been funny to many, but his humor consisted of cheap shots that easily amuse the uninformed and children. He promoted the excesses of the sexual revolution while reviling anyone who stood for decency. I found him neither funny nor convincing. Any good, well informed Catholic could easily win a true debate against him. But the left doesn’t do that kind of straightforward debate because they know they’d lose. Rather, they make fun of good people doing the right things, smear those they disagree with, and make it seem that being licentious is the cool thing to be.

Exactly, any good well informed Catholic could. How many good well informed Catholics were out there in the 90’s and 00’s on popular radio and tv talking politics? The left and the right avoid straightforward debate because neither political position is intellectually consistent - there are gaping holes in both. Jon Stewart won this generation by at least putting up a facade of arguing using logic. I guarantee you I can count more logical fallacies watching Bill O’Reilly listening to Rush Limbaugh than watching Jon Stewart. The two most popular personalities of the right would literally shout over their guests to “win” their arguments. I am comparing him to his counters on the other side of the political scale, not comparing him to the actual truth of Catholicism (next to which he is a joke).

Many cultures went down this road before us and destroyed themselves. It’s no consolation to say we’re doing it through the medium of laughter and derision.

I never said there was.

 

[Della]

I agree that being Republican is not the same thing as being Christian, but the Democrats have gone far away from basic Christian values that keep families intact and our young people morally sound. Welfare is not the same thing as proper social justice. Indeed, it’s the exact opposite of it.

Republicans have also strayed very far from Christianity. I also do not believe that welfare is social justice. I am referring to the attitudes of many outspoken Republicans, not specific public policy choices.

How, specifically. I showed how the Dems have.

And there is noting inconsistent with being pro-life and also for the death penalty or waging a just war. The Church is not pacifist. The death penalty is not intrinsically evil, nor is waging a just war. There is no Church approved “seamless garment” idea that embraces withholding proper punishment of heinous crimes nor of letting ourselves be bombed into submission by terrorists lest we kill some of them. Show me in the catechism where we are to embrace these ideas.

Here we disagree. I believe there is absolutely something inconsistent with being pro-life and for the death penalty. The Catholic world outside of American political influence is absolutely opposed to the death penalty. The Popes have spoke out against it, the Bishops have spoken out against it. The Catholic Catechism allows for the death penalty only in situations where it is the only way to defend the lives of other human beings against the aggressor.[CCC 2267] What % of people on death row in the US are killed because we don’t have any other reasonable way to keep them from killing again? Maybe 0.01%? As far as just wars - that is fine. I would challenge you to consider just war theory in the catechism [CCC 2309] and see just how many engagements would be supported under those conditions.

So, really you can’t say that the Church is intrinsically opposed to the death penalty or a just war. According to your way of thinking we can only make personal judgment calls about what constitutes the need for either. That is the duty and responsibility of government, not individual citizens. This is not the same thing as saying that one must be against just war and the death penalty to be a good Catholic.

Making sin popular is not an excuse for anyone to embrace it. Jon Stewart may have been funny to many, but his humor consisted of cheap shots that easily amuse the uninformed and children. He promoted the excesses of the sexual revolution while reviling anyone who stood for decency. I found him neither funny nor convincing. Any good, well informed Catholic could easily win a true debate against him. But the left doesn’t do that kind of straightforward debate because they know they’d lose. Rather, they make fun of good people doing the right things, smear those they disagree with, and make it seem that being licentious is the cool thing to be.

Exactly, any good well informed Catholic could. How many good well informed Catholics were out there in the 90’s and 00’s on popular radio and tv talking politics? The left and the right avoid straightforward debate because neither political position is intellectually consistent - there are gaping holes in both. Jon Stewart won this generation by at least putting up a facade of arguing using logic. I guarantee you I can count more logical fallacies watching Bill O’Reilly listening to Rush Limbaugh than watching Jon Stewart. The two most popular personalities of the right would literally shout over their guests to “win” their arguments. I am comparing him to his counters on the other side of the political scale, not comparing him to the actual truth of Catholicism (next to which he is a joke).

Well, no one listened to William F. Buckley, either and he was quite consistent. The American people don’t want to listen to reason–they want excuses to fornicate all they want, do whatever pleases them, and let the government take care of them. It’s an inherent fault with democracy, which is not any more God-ordained than any other form of government. When people realize they can get whatever they want by letting the government do it for them, they will let it, sad to say. It’s the weakness of our fallen nature. And that is what the liberal left exploits to the hilt. Most simply don’t want to hear that they need to take responsibility for their own actions and that they aren’t “owed” anything but to work hard and be good citizens.

Many cultures went down this road before us and destroyed themselves. It’s no consolation to say we’re doing it through the medium of laughter and derision.

I never said there was.

No, but you did seem to side with those who are doing that. I believe you didn’t mean to give that impression, though.

 

[jmjZelie]

When the people do not practice their faith, the law will then declare that not practicing the faith to be mandatory.

Scary thought.

 

[JimG]

Speaking as a fellow millennial, I think you are right to a degree, but I see things differently. I believe the reason the conservative movement lost and is bound to lose, is because it sold it’s soul. One of the things that the massive exchange of ideas, cultures, and religion has brought to our generation is a healthy skepticism and a desire for intellectual consistency. When we started to grow up and wonder what was true and what was right, all you had to do was look around and see who was spewing B.S. the loudest. “I’m louder than you, so I must be right” Republican hosts of radio and television dominated the 90’s and early 00’s. On the other side of the argument, you had comedians - people like Jon Stewart who were funny, likable, and argued based on facts (or at least attempted to). There was never a question where this generation was headed politically once the internet opened up the availability of facts and information.

So, to my point - I believe the reason the conservative movement is losing and will lose in this country, is because Christians in America confused Christianity and Republicanism. The party of Reagan is not the religion of Jesus Christ. Time and time again, our generation has seen the intellectual dishonesty of the Republican party (which is now indistinguishable from the “Christian” conservatism movement). Positions like pro-life, pro-death penalty, pro-war instead of an intellectually consistent pro-life platform. Embracing Ayn Rand’s cold view toward those with less than themselves rather than taking a compassionate approach toward those less fortunate and different from us as Christ demanded. Just a couple examples.

The reason that the conservative movement lost the culture war isn’t because they were too Christian, it’s because they weren’t Christian enough. They traded a beautiful religion full of truth for a pseudo religion full of ridiculous inconsistencies for political expediency.

I don’t doubt that many conservatives sold their soul, along, of course, with a great many liberals, moderates, and ordinary people.

When the sexual revolution came along, the older generations looked on disapprovingly as their sons and daughters proclaimed the delights of sexual license, fornication at will, cohabitation, mind altering drugs, and the laid back lifestyle. But they grew weary of being the stern ones. After awhile they joined the kids, using their weed, accepting their sexual practices, divorcing at will, and embracing the newfound freedom. They still maintained some of the old morality, but it had a looser hold.

Contraception, why not? Playboy magazine? I just read the articles. A few joints, just like a six pack.

But most Catholics retained their old political affiliations out of habit. Nobody paid much attention when the party first accepted, then advocated, then rejoiced in and advocated government funding of baby killing. It kept getting worse. Read the consecutive party platforms over a period of decades. When their old party became the unmistakeable party of death, where could Catholics go? Yes, Catholics can and do oppose the death penalty. But the death penalty has killed far fewer than the over 50 million killed by abortion.

So, I would say, read through the party platforms. See which favors most of the evils opposed by Catholic teaching.

But we can’t discuss politics in the Family Life forum. This is about culture and how it has and continues to decline.

 

[Jeff415]

No, but you did seem to side with those who are doing that. I believe you didn’t mean to give that impression, though.

If you want to know, I am an orthodox Catholic who will never vote for a politician who supports abortion, as I consider it to be the greatest evil against the most innocent in society. So that alone makes it unlikely that I will ever vote for a Democrat again. However, I grew up a hardcore Republican and have come to believe over time that the Republican party is almost as dangerous as the Democratic party because I think that it has invidiously perverted true Christianity for many in this country. I apologize for creating a political debate in the family life forum, my original post was intended to be my understanding of part of the reason why much of my generation has gone the way it has culturally.

 

[Della]

Della:

No, but you did seem to side with those who are doing that. I believe you didn’t mean to give that impression, though.

If you want to know, I am an orthodox Catholic who will never vote for a politician who supports abortion, as I consider it to be the greatest evil against the most innocent in society. So that alone makes it unlikely that I will ever vote for a Democrat again. However, I grew up a hardcore Republican and have come to believe over time that the Republican party is almost as dangerous as the Democratic party because I think that it has invidiously perverted true Christianity for many in this country. I apologize for creating a political debate in the family life forum, my original post was intended to be my understanding of part of the reason why much of my generation has gone the way it has culturally.

I can’t blame the Rep party, as you seem to want to do. Nor, really do I blame the Dem party–they’re only giving the people what they want–license to do whatever they want with no responsibility at government/taxpayer expense. I certainly don’t think the Rep party is God’s party or that it hasn’t seriously let us down in many ways, but since Jesus isn’t running for office, but mere men, I have to vote for the candidate least likely to put into place or uphold the things I know are dead wrong. It isn’t just how young people have been manipulated–it’s that their parents gave into the sexual revolution, the “me first” attitude and have merely passed it on to their kids. This was inevitable for every civilization starts out with faith and high hopes, then gives into temptation, their worst nature, and destroys themselves. It has happened again and again and will go on happening until Christ comes. We are battling in a long losing battle, still battle we must so that not all will be lost, yes?

 

[NeedImprovement]

BlueEyedLady;13668847:

Of course that’s how you and most others on that side see it. But you didn’t lose because you didn’t show up, or there wasn’t a fight. There was a fight, and it’s still going on. But the odds of winning it were against you from the start. Demographically, America is changing. It’s rapidly becoming younger, more ethnically and religiously diverse, and more educated. As those numbers tilt, it’s harder and harder for conservative policies to take hold.

Speaking as a fellow millennial, I think you are right to a degree, but I see things differently. . .

I apologize if I missed something , but there didn’t appear to be too much of anything right to any degree in that particular post in my limited opinion.

From the original article linked by the OP:

The government, too, will no longer leave us alone. As I wrote previously concerning Ontario’s war over sex education, the government needs the ability to re-educate children into the values of their secular system, and will go to war with parents for the right to do so. In some European countries, children are being taken away from their parents because Christian beliefs could “harm” the children—and some academics are already suggesting that Christianity could, one day, be “treatable.”

Conservatives want to be left alone to raise their children. The unfortunate fact is that we won’t be.

The secularists never had any intention of letting us carve out enclaves where we could live in peace—and a stream of legislation like Alberta’s Bill 10, which would force home-schoolers and private schools to change their teaching on sexuality, is simply the most recent evidence.

Indeed - what a fine example of “ethnic and religious diversity” , and of being more “educated.”

:dts:

As far as America “getting younger” - That simply isn’t possible when *no one is having children anymore *. . . another demographic problem Canada shares. Of course, the more, um, “educated” probably prefer to use an indirect term for this reality, such as Aging Population

What is true is that children are being gotten to younger by the militants - being indoctrinated at a younger age (as young as 5 years old) with all types of confusing sexual propaganda - way before ever starting to become sexually mature. Parents’ rights are trampled underfoot.

As opposed to wait and see, I prefer to pray and see.